Does holding the position of Guarantor in a Limited by Guarantee Company, count as an asset?

Trooper149

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Jun 27, 2022
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Much as the subject inquires, does the position of Guarantor in a Limited by Guarantee Company, count as an asset in the same way that having shares in a Limited by Shares Company, count as an asset?

If you have read the other 2 questions I have posted in this forum, you'll understand why I am asking this - please be patient as I am researching, and then needing clarification.

Look forward to some replies
T
 

Gyumri

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Nov 25, 2008
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A PG is to guarantee the debts of a company to a third party creditor. It would have to be a particularly clever and inaginative accountant to call a PG an asset of the company!

However, accountants are allowed to stuff depreciation values into the P & L to distort profits, so I guess anything is possible.
 
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kulture

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    A PG is to guarantee the debts of a company to a third party creditor. It would have to be a particularly clever and inaginative accountant to call a PG an asset of the company!

    However, accountants are allowed to stuff depreciation values into the P & L to distort profits, so I guess anything is possible.
    Please note this is not a personal guarantee which applies to all debts. It is a guarantor to a company limited by guarantee. As such the guarantor is liable up to the limit set in the company articles. Typically this is £1. As has been stated above.

    This is indeed a liability and not an asset for the individual.
     
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    Trooper149

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    Jun 27, 2022
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    Cheers for the responses guys:

    -in terms of structure and debts, in this case, all debts would be carried out under personal guarantee of the director (me) and would not be held against any guarantor unless it was specifically negotiated, which is unlikely
    -the guarantors would pay £1 (if indeed it is legally required to be a member) however in practice the guarantors would have little responsibility in running the company, at this stage at least

    Main thing I am considering is: if one signs up to be a guarantor in a limited by guarantee company, would their guarantorship be counted as an asset, like a share or would it be treated as an employment?
     
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    Gyumri

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    Neither is correct. A company limited by guarantee may have no assets and no income on day 1. The members have simply undertaken to guarantee the debts of the company in the event of the company being wound up.

    Although members can also be employed by the company their guarantee has no relation to employment.
     
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    Trooper149

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    Jun 27, 2022
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    I think you mis read the inference, the first two werent questions, but statements of how the company will run. The bottom section is the question;

    Cheers for the responses guys:

    To clarify, the manner in which we would want the company to operate are inclusive of the two following factors:
    -in terms of structure and debts, in this case, all debts would be carried out under personal guarantee of the director (me) and would not be held against any guarantor unless it was specifically negotiated, which is unlikely
    -the guarantors would pay £1 (if indeed it is legally required to be a member) however in practice the guarantors would have little responsibility in running the company, at this stage at least

    Main question I am considering is: if one signs up to be a guarantor in a limited by guarantee company, would their guarantorship be counted as an asset, like a share or would it be treated as an employment?
     
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    kulture

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    Cheers for the responses guys:

    -in terms of structure and debts, in this case, all debts would be carried out under personal guarantee of the director (me) and would not be held against any guarantor unless it was specifically negotiated, which is unlikely
    -the guarantors would pay £1 (if indeed it is legally required to be a member) however in practice the guarantors would have little responsibility in running the company, at this stage at least

    Main thing I am considering is: if one signs up to be a guarantor in a limited by guarantee company, would their guarantorship be counted as an asset, like a share or would it be treated as an employment?
    You seem to be asking specific questions on minute details without providing any context or background so the answers are specific to the question asked and probably of no use to you whatsoever as the overal concept may be completlt flawed.

    What is the point in having a limited company if you sign a personal guarantee for all the debts?

    A limited company by guarantee is normally set up by not for profit organisations and do not make any profit. Any profit is re-invested in the company. If you expect to make profits it is more usual to create a normal limited company with one or more shareholders. Now a shareholder may consider their shares an asset. A guarantor is neither an employee nor is them being a guarantor an asset for them. How many times do we answer this.
     
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    Trooper149

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    Jun 27, 2022
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    Perhaps I will come back to this question later but for now, as the explanation is quite involved, I will say simply:
    -I personally hold a job role, which is self employed (cant be ltd due to law), high risk (to life of myself and others), in a volatile industry (construction)
    -as such, despite having insurance (which is undeveloped for my particular field as there arent many providers), you cant rely on that as a form of protection against any claims, if really unfortunately I or someone else had an accident at work.
    -with this said, as opposed to most people where they try to separate liability from work by operating as ltd, I try to limit the personal assets I personally own (such as a mortgaged property) by having them owned via another ltd company of which I am not a shareholder/guarantor, but a director with full control who provides the personal guarantee for the mortgage. In doing this it makes me an employee (the benefit being that I can retain full control over the assets, without owning them)
    -some might frame this as a sneaky run around, but honestly it isnt. The assets in question aren't for direct monetary gain of shareholders or myself, but for the long term purchase and renovations of property which primarily are rented out, but in some instances can also provide geographical and logistical benefits to shareholders/guarantors via benefits in kind.
    -so in weighing up whether to set up as ltd by shares or by guarantee, I am looking at the latter, as it essentially prioritises the needs of the business ahead of the needs of the shareholders (more so than a ltd by shares company). This benefits everyone, because certain family members of mine who would act as guarantors would receive, instead of share dividends, member benefits such as the utilisation of unleased rooms and addresses to register mail at. They would also benefit from getting to be guarantor/member of a non profit organisation without the assuming of debt liability which is held by me (the director) This would be subject to their level of contribution to the non profit as assessed by myself, the director.

    On a very fundamental level, I am accruing assets personally for my family, by performing very dangerous and liable work. With this said, I cannot risk to hold the assets myself. I want to create a company which can hold the assets for me, and through which I can manage with total authority. My family, many of whom need to be kept in line, can be a part of this company as a member, but are required to be active participants as opposed to shareholders who ordinarily wait for dividends to come in. Those family members who contribute, can receive benefits in kind for contributing to the company which in terms of its company purpose (setting aside my own) is to provide high quality rooms for rent to young professionals. All profits are re-invested into this endeavour.

    Please understand this is a work in progress and I am consulting a few advisors though the more feedback and input I get the better.

    Appreciate any further advice to the validity and nuances I may encounter to set this up.
     
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    Trooper149

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    This is basically my question/assumption that would like confirmation: does being a guarantor in a limited by guarantee company count as an asset on their personal tax return, in the way that a shareholders shares would? My assumption is they wouldn't as all profits remain in the business and the role of guarantor is just that - a role.
     
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    kulture

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    And that is the whole point. You are constructing a house of cards in an attempt to protect your money and assets. Spend a bit of that money. Invest in proper professional advice. Build a legally correct, loophole free, secure financial structure that does the job you need. Stop this amateur hour game, the chances that you can produce a better protection than an expert is nil.
     
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    kulture

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    Guys, thank you for your advice. As stated I am consulting some professionals however I am waiting for responses from them. With this said, I am posting this on a forum to get some second opinions. Please dont scalp me.
    Second opinions should come from equally qualified experts. Perhaps ones who think differently who may come up with alternative suggestions and who can validate (or not) the first opinion. Second opinions from random unqalified people who have only been given partial glimpses of your real requirements are worth less than what you have paid for them.
     
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