Self catering rentals - Electric car charging?

[Socio South West]

Among my assignments is some work with a holiday property rental agency portfolio: Rentals almost all one or two weeks.

A few Owners have now experienced Guests with electric vehicles, and charging them off the property supply: Discussion has thrown up a few issues:

1) Is it reasonable to refuse electric car charging at these properties? Is it fair that the Owner should be fuelling the Guest's car?

2) If permitted, and there is damage to the property from an overheating charger - maybe severe damage - would it be reasonable to pursue the owner of the car/charger in question not only for rebuilding /redecorating but for loss of earnings from bookings that would possibly be cancelled were the damage severe enough?

3) One probably for @Frank the Insurance guy - is anyone aware of any insurance aspects of this that might arise for the Owners?

I will be interested in opinions from a larger cross section of people - TIA

 

[Fagin2021]

Among my assignments is some work with a holiday property rental agency portfolio: Rentals almost all one or two weeks.

A few Owners have now experienced Guests with electric vehicles, and charging them off the property supply: Discussion has thrown up a few issues:

1) Is it reasonable to refuse electric car charging at these properties? Is it fair that the Owner should be fuelling the Guest's car?

2) If permitted, and there is damage to the property from an overheating charger - maybe severe damage - would it be reasonable to pursue the owner of the car/charger in question not only for rebuilding /redecorating but for loss of earnings from bookings that would possibly be cancelled were the damage severe enough?

3) One probably for @Frank the Insurance guy - is anyone aware of any insurance aspects of this that might arise for the Owners?

I will be interested in opinions from a larger cross section of people - TIA

Just don't allow it (I have a holiday rental). Never mind the electricity cost - it can damage the mains supply, create a fire hazard and (@Frank the Insurance guy will know this) quite possibly invalidate your insurance.

If you want to provide a metered facility for guests to recharge their car you will need a separate supply and proper charging point.

Make sure it's clearly pointed out in your T&Cs that guests mustn't use the mains to recharge their cars.

 

[DontAsk]

What sort of damage? If the property supply is defective, get it fixed. Charging a car will not pose any risk that any other appliance wouldn't. It will take a long time, however.

 

[Fagin2021]

What sort of damage? If the property supply is defective, get it fixed. Charging a car will not pose any risk that any other appliance wouldn't. It will take a long time, however.

As I understand it, to connect to a charger you need a heavy duty cable running from your consumer unit to a charger - like you do for a cooker or shower. Presumably the OP was talking about guests who just plug their charger into a mains socket. It will, as you say, be painfully slow.

That's what I was told when thinking about giving guests this facility myself. Metering the connection adds another level of complexity. Not being an electrician I'll be happy to be corrected.

 

[DontAsk]

EVs should come with a 13A charging cable.

 

[Scubadog]

I would suggest that unless you have installed a dedicated ev charging station then you do not allow them to plug into a socket. This can cause a few problems and a few risks, though these should be reduced through your regular Electrical installation condition reports

Instead, I would install an ev charger and offer a pay per use selling electricity at a profit. Note not all properties are suitable for ev charging installation.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Stay well away from it
Many of these types of properties are here in Devon and Cornwall and they are just not built for this type of thing .
My own cottage was built in 1760 and was only designed for a peasant like me with no money ?
On an older holiday rental property I would expect there to be insurance issues

 

[MikeJ]

Mine comes with a 13A charger. The "cooker" type ones aren't portable, so there's not much chance of someone turning up with one and wiring into your supply. The biggest risk would be running the cable from the property to the car, and causing damage that way. I've run one out of a bedroom window because the car was just outside, and on another occasion run an extension cable to the car.

I've seen a few places where they've limited the amount of electricity you can use during the stay, and charge for any extra. But... it's probably costs £10-20 to charge a car, and compared with the amount it costs to rent a property, I'd not worry too much about it. Having lots of rules and conditions tends to turn me away from a property, even if they don't affect me.

 

[pentel]

EVs should come with a 13A charging cable.

Charging via a 13A socket is no more dangerous than plugging in an electric kettle. It is however painfully slow.

I cant think of an easy solution to this one other than installing a quick charger and having this on a pay by card facility

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[MikeJ]

The only issue with that is it doesn't do every type of car.

A 13A supply will put about 5 miles of range on my car every hour it's plugged in. That's slow, but if you do it overnight then you're looking at 90 miles or so between 6pm and 9am. Do that for several nights in a row, and you'll charge the car.

 

[DontAsk]

I would suggest that unless you have installed a dedicated ev charging station then you do not allow them to plug into a socket. This can cause a few problems and a few risks,

Again, what sort of risks. If the property's electrical system cannot cope with a 13A load then it's not safe to rent out, end of.

 

[Scubadog]

Again, what sort of risks. If the property's electrical system cannot cope with a 13A load then it's not safe to rent out, end of.

Not quite true.

• Firstly, the 13A socket is not designed for continuous loads. BS1363 states 4 hours maximum after which a dedicated final circuit and load connection point should be installed.
• Secondly, PEN conductor faults in the properties, the street or even the neighbours property causes earthed surfaces to become permanently live (in this case the entire vehicle) This is why the EV charging regulations state the need for PEN fault protection.
• Thirdly, BS7671 states EV charging needs to be protected by a two pole A RCD, most are single pole and only are AC type which get blinded by DC interference (the vehicle charging circuits)

Hopefully that fills in the gaps sufficient?

 

[Scubadog]

Charging via a 13A socket is no more dangerous than plugging in an electric kettle. It is however painfully slow.

I cant think of an easy solution to this one other than installing a quick charger and having this on a pay by card facility

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I think you misunderstand EV charging risks

 

[Scubadog]

Mine comes with a 13A charger. The "cooker" type ones aren't portable, so there's not much chance of someone turning up with one and wiring into your supply. The biggest risk would be running the cable from the property to the car, and causing damage that way. I've run one out of a bedroom window because the car was just outside, and on another occasion run an extension cable to the car.

I've seen a few places where they've limited the amount of electricity you can use during the stay, and charge for any extra. But... it's probably costs £10-20 to charge a car, and compared with the amount it costs to rent a property, I'd not worry too much about it. Having lots of rules and conditions tends to turn me away from a property, even if they don't affect me.

The biggest risk is PEN faults, RCD blinding, overloading BS1363 plugs and incorrect disconnection of single pole RCD's/RCBO's in case of faults.

 

[Fagin2021]

The biggest risk is PEN faults, RCD blinding, overloading BS1363 plugs and incorrect disconnection of single pole RCD's/RCBO's in case of faults.

Just what I was thinking too!

I've been doing a bit of research and I think @DontAsk is correct - but with a caveat. The RAC site says...

'Dedicated EV home chargers typically deliver around 7kW of power. In contrast, most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW'.

So, not much different to a domestic convection heater. However, if a vehicle charges at 7kW and the charger can supply 7kW then there is a danger of overloading the ring main if other high-usage appliances (dishwasher, washing machine, tumble dryer) are in use.

 

[Scubadog]

Just what I was thinking too!

I've been doing a bit of research and I think @DontAsk is correct - but with a caveat. The RAC site says...

'Dedicated EV home chargers typically deliver around 7kW of power. In contrast, most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW'.

So, not much different to a domestic convection heater. However, if a vehicle charges at 7kW and the charger can supply 7kW then there is a danger of overloading the ring main if other high-usage appliances (dishwasher, washing machine, tumble dryer) are in use.

It is not so much about the ring main, and in fact ring mains are an outdated method these days. It is specifically that our good ol british standard plug and socket is only rated for 4 hours at 13A.

However, that issue is the least of the safety concerns listed. The big one is PEN fault. That is literally a killer that no safety device besides a PEN fault relay can protect against.

 

[Socio South West]

Many many thanks to all contributors so far: This has filled a lot of holes in our knowledge, but please don't stop the debate, especially on the insurance angle.

 

[Mr D]

Just don't allow it (I have a holiday rental). Never mind the electricity cost - it can damage the mains supply, create a fire hazard and (@Frank the Insurance guy will know this) quite possibly invalidate your insurance.

If you want to provide a metered facility for guests to recharge their car you will need a separate supply and proper charging point.

Make sure it's clearly pointed out in your T&Cs that guests mustn't use the mains to recharge their cars.

How exactly does someone stop the charging of a car? Set it in terms and conditions, make it abundantly clear in the booking - but how does an owner prevent it?
I don't have an electric car but if I did then charging overnight through a cable slowly for free would be cheaper than paying to use a charging point that has a charge on top of rental.

 

[Scubadog]

If they plug into a socket not intended for ev charging and break your property they are liable. If they break their property you it is not your responsibility.

If you provide a dedicated ev socket and it breaks theirs or has been installed incorrectly you are liable.

 

[DontAsk]

How exactly does someone stop the charging of a car?

You can't, if they have the 13 A charging lead.

If they plug into a socket not intended for ev charging

It will be a standard ,13A socket. Not recommended for anything other than supplying electricity.

 

[DontAsk]

In contrast, most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW'.

?

 

[Scubadog]

You can't, if they have the 13 A charging lead.

It will be a standard ,13A socket. Not recommended for anything other than supplying electricity.

I think you need to go and read the British standard for sockets.

 

[DontAsk]

I think you need to go and read the British standard for sockets.

What I meant was they are not explicitly recommended for EV charging, not are they discouraged for EV charging, given the correct lead.

 

[Scubadog]

What I meant was they are not explicitly recommended for EV charging, not are they discouraged for EV charging, given the correct lead.

They are explicitly discouraged for ev charging. It is a complete fallacy to suggest otherwise.

 

[Mr D]

You can't, if they have the 13 A charging lead.

It will be a standard ,13A socket. Not recommended for anything other than supplying electricity.

And charging something (car, powerbank, phone etc) is supplying electricity to it?

Must admit I've never come across someone using an electricity socket for anything other than getting electricity.

 

[Mr D]

They are explicitly discouraged for ev charging. It is a complete fallacy to suggest otherwise.

However it appears from what people do that the sockets are used for EV charging by some.

 

[Scubadog]

And charging something (car, powerbank, phone etc) is supplying electricity to it?

Must admit I've never come across someone using an electricity socket for anything other than getting electricity.

Suggest you read regulation 722.411.4.1

I am guessing you don't have access to British standard regulations as you don't seem to understand the fundamentals since you don't seem to know the difference between a simple class 2 electrically isolated phone charger.or a high DC voltage pme connected car charger. I mean, you don't even need to be qualified to look and tell the two are different!

Charging a phone (a class 2 low voltage device which is electrically isolated from your mains and earth) is not the same as charging a high voltage DC vehicle which is directly connected to your mains and more specifically and worrigly connected to your Circuit protection (the earth) and specifically the PEN conductor.

Presumably you understand how a PEN conductor works and the risks associated with EV vehicles and their use? Well, good news, the regulation stated above provides the regulations on their use.

Also worth reading 722.531.3 which specifies the specific type of RCD's which must be used. No doubt you recognise the ones used in most homes are incorrect and won't disconnect in event of a fault on a var charger. Or in fact disconnect in any fault in the house when a car charger is plugged into it.

Then I suggest reading 722.55.101 which states specifically the type of sockets which can be used, their requirements and their markings.

That should take you a few weeks to figure out and understand.....or (and I'm just saying here) you could listen to a qualified electrical engineer, qualified electrician, qualified EV charger point installer who doesn't actually install or sell ev charger points or is involved in any way to any domestic electrical work and as such has absolutely no gain in "trying to sell" an ev charger.

Up to you really.

 

[Scubadog]

However it appears from what people do that the sockets are used for EV charging by some.

Yea....I also see people smoking. Driving without seat belts and being general idiots.

Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do though does it?

That is, unless you are happy living in ignorance of the risks.

 

[Mr D]

Suggest you read regulation 722.411.4.1

I am guessing you don't have access to British standard regulations as you don't seem to understand the fundamentals since you don't seem to know the difference between a simple class 2 electrically isolated phone charger.or a high DC voltage pme connected car charger. I mean, you don't even need to be qualified to look and tell the two are different!

Charging a phone (a class 2 low voltage device which is electrically isolated from your mains and earth) is not the same as charging a high voltage DC vehicle which is directly connected to your mains and more specifically and worrigly connected to your Circuit protection (the earth) and specifically the PEN conductor.

Presumably you understand how a PEN conductor works and the risks associated with EV vehicles and their use? Well, good news, the regulation stated above provides the regulations on their use.

Also worth reading 722.531.3 which specifies the specific type of RCD's which must be used. No doubt you recognise the ones used in most homes are incorrect and won't disconnect in event of a fault on a var charger. Or in fact disconnect in any fault in the house when a car charger is plugged into it.

Then I suggest reading 722.55.101 which states specifically the type of sockets which can be used, their requirements and their markings.

That should take you a few weeks to figure out and understand.....or (and I'm just saying here) you could listen to a qualified electrical engineer, qualified electrician, qualified EV charger point installer who doesn't actually install or sell ev charger points or is involved in any way to any domestic electrical work and as such has absolutely no gain in "trying to sell" an ev charger.

Up to you really.

And this stops people on holiday charging their car for free how exactly?

 

[Scubadog]

And this stops people on holiday charging their car for free how exactly?

Where did I say it stops people?

All I have said is its not a good idea to do it or allow it. And if you actually read what I said, I stated that if you wanted to allow it, then I would suggest fitting a proper ev charging port.

However, ways you could stop it
1) don't have sockets where cars park
2) follow the rules on sockets in locations where they might get used by EV's (as per those stated above)
3) explicitly state no ev charging in a contracts

Besides that...use your imagination

 

[Mr D]

Yea....I also see people smoking. Driving without seat belts and being general idiots.

Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do though does it?

That is, unless you are happy living in ignorance of the risks.

Seems like people will do what they want.

Remember the mask wearing period indoors 3 years back? People wearing a mask under their chin, people wearing no mask.

It sounds from the thread that short of examining the property multiple times a day and night there is no way to stop someone charging an EV.
Not sure quoting the regulations at someone will work. Has it ever worked for you in a casual non business relationship?

 

[Mr D]

Where did I say it stops people?

All I have said is its not a good idea to do it or allow it. And if you actually read what I said, I stated that if you wanted to allow it, then I would suggest fitting a proper ev charging port.

However, ways you could stop it
1) don't have sockets where cars park
2) follow the rules on sockets in locations where they might get used by EV's (as per those stated above)
3) explicitly state no ev charging in a contracts

Besides that...use your imagination

Fitting a proper EV charging port to allow free charging would likely work - easy to use, quick to charge, no need for slow charging from a plug.

More of a problem if giving people the choice between free and an added cost when there's no major advantage to them for the added cost.

 

[Scubadog]

Seems like people will do what they want.

Remember the mask wearing period indoors 3 years back? People wearing a mask under their chin, people wearing no mask.

It sounds from the thread that short of examining the property multiple times a day and night there is no way to stop someone charging an EV.
Not sure quoting the regulations at someone will work. Has it ever worked for you in a casual non business relationship?

Well, I would follow thw regulations, which in turn would make it difficult for someone to use my electrical system in a manner not designed. Thats kinda the point of them.

But hey....my rental properties have the right charging ports, and has sockets placed in the cirrect areas, amd doesnt have sockets placed in incorrect areas that may allow ev charging without doing something stupid to make it happen, so it doesn't really cause me any problems.

 

[Scubadog]

Fitting a proper EV charging port to allow free charging would likely work - easy to use, quick to charge, no need for slow charging from a plug.

More of a problem if giving people the choice between free and an added cost when there's no major advantage to them for the added cost.

Why would they have a choice?
Hiw would that situation arise whereby they have a choice?

Though you do seem to ignore the minor 3.5 times faster charging a paid for solution would provide.

 

[Mr D]

Why would they have a choice?
Hiw would that situation arise whereby they have a choice?

Though you do seem to ignore the minor 3.5 times faster charging a paid for solution would provide.

Speed of charging is relevant to those without time to spare.
By all means don't give them a choice. Prevent their charging by other means, so glad you worked out how to do that.

You would be searching the cars of those arriving to prevent anyone sneaking in an extension lead?

 

[Mr D]

Well, I would follow thw regulations, which in turn would make it difficult for someone to use my electrical system in a manner not designed. Thats kinda the point of them.

But hey....my rental properties have the right charging ports, and has sockets placed in the cirrect areas, amd doesnt have sockets placed in incorrect areas that may allow ev charging without doing something stupid to make it happen, so it doesn't really cause me any problems.

Glad you sorted it out.

 

[Scubadog]

Speed of charging is relevant to those without time to spare.
By all means don't give them a choice. Prevent their charging by other means, so glad you worked out how to do that.

You would be searching the cars of those arriving to prevent anyone sneaking in an extension lead?

I think you misunderstand how risk and assessments work, as well as general electrical safety.

If you haven't provided something, and and you have taken all necessary reasonable steps to prevent something, and someone still does something that causes a problem.....it would be them held liable.

Surely you understand how risk and liability works, right?

 

[Mr D]

I think you misunderstand how risk and assessments work, as well as general electrical safety.

If you haven't provided something, and and you have taken all necessary reasonable steps to prevent something, and someone still does something that causes a problem.....it would be them held liable.

Surely you understand how risk and liability works, right?

Yes I understand risk and liability. However you appeared earlier to be unaware of what people do.
Reduce your liability does not mean someone wanting a charge will avoid a charge for their vehicle. How you can't see this I'll never know.

Still as you've said you have sorted out preventing what people are likely to do then it isn't an issue for you. Its an issue for others so may be worth telling them in detail how you have achieved this.

 

[DefinitelyMaybeUK]

I would of thought that if there's an unreasonable risk from using a manufacturers supplied 13A socket charging lead then they wouldn't be provided in order to meet UK regulations. The fact they are limited to 2.3KW would seem to imply they meet the apparent 4hr 13A limitation mentioned. How could any insurance company hold you liable for meeting those requirements?

In practice, at the moment with relatively low EV take-up, then it's going to be impossible to enforce restrictions. I can imagine a holiday renter plugging in every night using the slow but approved 13A socket lead and easily using £50+ a week of electricity - this could be a significant chunk of small cottage let profit. Long term (assuming EV usage does become prominent) I can see rental prices all going up to offset EV charging. At the moment, holiday let's will realistically have to take the hit. By all means install PAYG fast chargers, some holiday people may use them if they need to get home in a hurry, but by their nature, the average holiday letter is not in a hurry and will take the free route.

 

[Clodbuster]

Is this a case of Brits ranting on about safety at the slightest excuse.
I have a car that is plugged in to a general socket and the length of time to charge is no object as it is stationary most of the week. It has a timer so only on during low prices. 8 months now and my house is still standing