HGV Driver shortage

[Newchodge]

There is a lot of noise about driver shortages at the moment. May I suggest some background information.

Many years ago haulage companies took on apprentices and trained them, paying for their HGV training and licences.

Other haulage companies saw the way to cut their own costs and offered trained drivers higher wage rates, which made economic sense as it was cheaper to do this than to fund driver training.

Fairly quickly the haulage companies who trained drivers realised they were losing out substantially and the concept of employers training and funding HGV licences died out.

Drivers were then only recruited if they had valid licences. Fairly soon the cost to existing drivers of maintaing their licences led many to leave the profession. Potential drivers, faced with the enormous cost of geting a licence looked elsewhere for work.

Haulage companies, faced with clients demanding cheaper and cheaper contracts, 'stopped employing' drivers and only used drivers who were 'self employed' and looked overseas to cheaper 'self employed' drivers.

Drivers found the paperwork involvedd in self employment onerous and were enticed to work through umbrella companies.

Who fleeced them.

(Anecdote: I attended an employment tribunal 2 years ago where 2 HGV drivers were being paid the equivalent of £9.15 per hour and denied paid holidays. The drivers lost their claim for holiday pay).

The industry is now complaining of the shortage of HGV drivers.

The governments's initial response has been to allow a relaxation of the drivers' hours' laws, so they can work for an additional hour per day.

Can anyone suggest why there may be a shortage of HGV drivers and suggest ways of dealing with the issue (if the issue exists)?

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Where do we start ?
Lets go from the very top in 2021 !

Your average haulage company will charge between £1.20 a mile to £2.00 a mile for a 40 ton truck ( biggest ones on the roads )
We charge £1.80 a mile for a luton van !
£1.20 a mile for a small van with a smaller and more economical engine than your car !

So these businesses are running at such low margins that there is no money to do anything !
Companies are tightly regulated by the government and have to jump through hoops on a daily basis to satisfy vehicle maintenance and safety management .Along with daily driver safety reporting
The overheads to run one one of these operations are frighting

There has been a shortage of drivers for a considerable amount of years now mostly due to the poor pay and conditions !
The drivers that moved here from the EU have helped to fill the gap but with us leaving the EU many have returned home or gone to work in other EU states .

The pay for a skilled driver is appalling . They earn anything between 25 to 35 K but most are out all week and sleeping in the cab with no real comfort and meals or access to showers and washing facilities .
We all know older experienced drivers who have very poor physical health as driving all day for most of your life is an occupation that is very bad for you .

If you make a mistake in your job What can happen ?. Probably not much !
If you make a mistake in a truck you could highly likely end up in prison .
So you get low pay , poor health , sleep in a tin box all your life and possibly end up in jail and you will get fat and your significant other might divorce you ( another stat !)
Who the hell in 2021 would want to do that ?

I dont actually think that there is a solution some larger companies still run apprenticeships Gregorys Distribution train new drivers along with Stobarts .
The reality is that this job is quite an old fashioned way of life despite modern trucks being equipped like spaceships Young people just dont want to do it .
They want to be Instagram influencers what ever that is

 

[bodgitt&scarperLTD]

Was chatting to a 19 year old artic driver yesterday evening, he was pulling a tankerload out of a job I was working on, and was parking up to spend the night. He was young and keen, but for how long who knows?

It sounds like the major shortage hitting now is because of supermarkets. They are paying £280 a day, no overnighting. No wonder long distance truckers are switching employers.

I saw something in the transport press recently about haulage firms charging a 'driver retention surcharge' as well!

The most obvious solution will be to kick the DVLA up the arse and grant them an 'expemption' of some sort (everyone else seems to get one!) so that they can get through the massive 45k backlog of HGV tests. With the better pay and a lot of people about to loose their jobs, this is the best soloution for the country as a whole.

What will almost certainly happen, however, is that the government will grant special dispensation for foreign nationals with any dubious third world HGV license to come and work for peanuts. It's the Tory way.

 

[Deleted member 335660]

There is a lot of noise about driver shortages at the moment. May I suggest some background information.

Many years ago haulage companies took on apprentices and trained them, paying for their HGV training and licences.

Other haulage companies saw the way to cut their own costs and offered trained drivers higher wage rates, which made economic sense as it was cheaper to do this than to fund driver training.

Fairly quickly the haulage companies who trained drivers realised they were losing out substantially and the concept of employers training and funding HGV licences died out.

Drivers were then only recruited if they had valid licences. Fairly soon the cost to existing drivers of maintaing their licences led many to leave the profession. Potential drivers, faced with the enormous cost of geting a licence looked elsewhere for work.

Haulage companies, faced with clients demanding cheaper and cheaper contracts, 'stopped employing' drivers and only used drivers who were 'self employed' and looked overseas to cheaper 'self employed' drivers.

Drivers found the paperwork involvedd in self employment onerous and were enticed to work through umbrella companies.

Who fleeced them.

(Anecdote: I attended an employment tribunal 2 years ago where 2 HGV drivers were being paid the equivalent of £9.15 per hour and denied paid holidays. The drivers lost their claim for holiday pay).

The industry is now complaining of the shortage of HGV drivers.

The governments's initial response has been to allow a relaxation of the drivers' hours' laws, so they can work for an additional hour per day.

Can anyone suggest why there may be a shortage of HGV drivers and suggest ways of dealing with the issue (if the issue exists)?

The basic problem has been Brexit. There were reports ages ago, from Road Hauliers, warning that 30-50% of their drivers had gone back to EU.

Now with demand rising and covid it’s showing up more.

It seems to me much similar to the problem farmers had. In order to meet the competition on prices, especially food, companies were looking for savings and EU labour were willing to do the work.

Now there is no EU labour. Brits are not willing to do the work for the pay offered.

Governments response is typical of this current bunch. So much for Boris’s leveling up!

 

[Mark T Jones]

When I was agency driving, a number if van drivers held HGV licences but opted for van driving instead

Whilst the rare of pay was marginally lower, the conditions, flexibility and personal liability issues made it a more flexible option

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Were the EU drivers all they were cracked up to be? A few years ago I had a delivery coming from Italy. We were a bit anxious about the delivery time and were in touch with the agents based in Bristol. The truck had some kind of tracking but hadn't been recorded at a few of the expected stops. It then showed on the tracking on some minor roads in Germany then disappeared again. It finally arrived at the Bristol depot 3 days late. It unloaded and left the yard and was stopped by the police one mile down the road. Totally unroadworthy. Taken off the road and impounded.

You only have to drive on the roads used by Eastern EU trucks to see what bad condition a lot are in.

 

[WaveJumper]

Were the EU drivers all they were cracked up to be? A few years ago I had a delivery coming from Italy. We were a bit anxious about the delivery time and were in touch with the agents based in Bristol. The truck had some kind of tracking but hadn't been recorded at a few of the expected stops. It then showed on the tracking on some minor roads in Germany then disappeared again. It finally arrived at the Bristol depot 3 days late. It unloaded and left the yard and was stopped by the police one mile down the road. Totally unroadworthy. Taken off the road and impounded.

You only have to drive on the roads used by Eastern EU trucks to see what bad condition a lot are in.

I could never understand why VOSA were not at the ports checking lorries coming off the ferries a large percentage of them should never have been allowed on our roads.

 

[Newchodge]

The basic problem has been Brexit. There were reports ages ago, from Road Hauliers, warning that 30-50% of their drivers had gone back to EU.

Now with demand rising and covid it’s showing up more.

It seems to me much similar to the problem farmers had. In order to meet the competition on prices, especially food, companies were looking for savings and EU labour were willing to do the work.

Now there is no EU labour. Brits are not willing to do the work for the pay offered.

Governments response is typical of this current bunch. So much for Boris’s leveling up!

The current problem is Brexit, however there were shortage long before that. The EU drivers came as a fix to the original problem - now a better fix is needed.

 

[KM-Tiger]

now a better fix is needed

Railways?

 

[Paul Norman]

The HGV driver situation is another example of predictability.

For various reasons - a number of which are correctly listed above - companies cut back on developing new talent. Then there is a shortage of talent. Then - too late - governments stick their inexperienced oar in. So we solve it by shipping in drivers from elsewhere (I have no issue with this), or extending drivers hours (a potentially health and safety issue).

I remember a similar situation in the 90's with vehicle technicians. The big players decided to stop the practise of running with 2 to 4 apprentices in each workshop. The more experienced guys retired, were promoted, or left the game. Suddenly, to the feigned surprise of the bosses, we had unfilled vacancies.

The analysis of why is fun, and heated. But not nearly as useful as being determined to fix the error. We need to train more drivers, vehicle technicians, nurses - and many other people. And we need to find answers to the practical reasons why currently that doesn't happen.

 

[IanSuth]

Also quite apart from Brexit caused shortages as I understand it from my ex Welsh Guards tanker driver rugby team mate (who is nearly 50), in the past a lot of HGV drivers had done their initial training in the military, with a stint in to gain your licence (an an earlier age than you could in civvie life) seen as a valid sensible career choice when the other option involved pits or heavy industry

Now the military is smaller and rather than employ it's own it outsources transport jobs to not have to use scarce resources, that however means not just a reduction in trained drivers leaving the military but also a demand on the civilian drivers to carry out a task previously done by the military.

I mean look at this
https://www.ftxlog.com/joining-ftx/the-job/

In peacetime, Operators are based from home. Their primary role is the movement of Heavy Armour for FTX Logistics on behalf of the Army.

When not employed on their primary task, Operators are assigned to driver Agencies in their local area.

Operators will be expected to be deployed on Operations in military uniform for which salary is uplifted by 50%.

QUALIFICATIONS & REQUIREMENTS

• Operators must hold a C+E licence
• Maintainers must hold HGV mechanic qualifications
• Not exceed 6 driving licence points
• Physically fit
• Willing to work away from home when required
• Able to meet Army Medical standards

 

[gpietersz]

I do not know about HGV drivers in particular, but in general people move jobs more (and this is widely regarded as a good thing - more economically efficient if people work for the highest bidder). That means its less worth employers investing in training them.

The two possible solutions are:

1. pay more so its worth their investing in their own training.
2. givernment funded training

2 is probably the best option, except that the government's track record (and this is not just the current government, and its all major parties) means they will probably attempt to solve it by introducing degrees in heavy goods vehicle studies.

 

[MBE2017]

The basic problem has been Brexit. There were reports ages ago, from Road Hauliers, warning that 30-50% of their drivers had gone back to EU.

Now with demand rising and covid it’s showing up more.

Totally incorrect. Brexit has brought it slightly more to the top of the news as foreign drivers work elsewhere for more money, BUT as Jeremy Hawke correctly identified in the first response, it’s down to very low pay and awful conditions.

Most HGV drivers have to pay for their own training, work for less than £12 hr, live in the cab throughout the week, spend most their lives away from their partner and kids, and their main compensation is to get to use the worst toilet facilities imaginable, ones even Glastonbury in the mud would be ashamed of.

When I had my own courier company I wouldn’t turn the key for less than £60 hr on a van, because of the foreign drivers in recent years many would carry a load England to Scotland for £40 all in, just so they could have a few drinks on their employer paying the fuel bill.

Pay the right money, these artic rigs cost up to £250k each, and they are using many drivers on less than £10hr. A kid straight out of school stacking supermarket shelves earns more money. I actually know two drivers who have quit to stack shelves at Waitrose, they love the short hours, extra money, and going home each night. These drivers should be earning nearer £60k per year.

 

[NickGrogan]

Nothing to do with Brexit - Germany has the same issues.

Reasons for the Driver Shortage in Logistics
While according to ‘Die Welt’ (only german) about 40,000 truck drivers retire every year, only 16,000 complete their training. A World Bank Group study conducted by the Kühne Logistics University actually confirms an increasing driver shortage in logistics for all of Europe.

There are serious reasons for the waning of the profession:

• Age structure: The logistics industry did not manage to attract enough newcomers to the profession to replace the older generations.
• Unattractive working conditions: Stress, excessive working hours and a low quality of life are among the day-to-day challenges for many truck drivers and define their hard everyday work.
• Low wages and low social status: The wages of the drivers are not sufficient to compensate for the stressful working conditions. The social status of truck drivers is also low and they meet with little appreciation.
• Rising crime rate: The high crime rate which reflects risks faced by truck drivers must not be underestimated as well. Thus, the GDV reports (only german) that cargo worth 1.4 billion euros is stolen in Germany. In addition to that there are 900 million euros in penalty payments for delayed deliveries, repair costs as well as loss of sales and production for the final recipients. The assaults on truck drivers are not even included in these figures.

https://www.transportlogistic.de/en/trade-fair/industry-insights/truck-driver-shortage/

and America and Canada

TRUCK DRIVER SHORTAGE IN US + CANADA
Statistics show that there is a shortage of truck drivers in the year 2019.

Currently, Canada reports being short around 25,000 truck drivers while the US reports a whopping shortage of around 60,000 drivers.

https://www.smart-trucking.com/truck-driver-shortage/

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...-deepen-by-2026-says-beroe-inc-301264810.html

 

[Mark T Jones]

Nothing to do with Brexit - Germany has the same issues.

Reasons for the Driver Shortage in Logistics
While according to ‘Die Welt’ (only german) about 40,000 truck drivers retire every year, only 16,000 complete their training. A World Bank Group study conducted by the Kühne Logistics University actually confirms an increasing driver shortage in logistics for all of Europe.

Are you & @The Byre conspiring?

 

[NickGrogan]

Are you & @The Byre conspiring?

All part of the Scottish takeover.

 

[DavidWH]

My F-I-L is a HGV driver, he's been at it 34+ years for the same small family business.

He can go away on a Sunday afternoon, and not return until Saturday morning.

He's quite happy in his cab, going where he needs around the UK. He's been doing it long enough it's the normal. Over the years he's learnt where's best to eat, but the mainstay of his diet more recently Weatherspoons, as they can't really bugger it up. Except in lockdown where most dining places were closed.

His thoughts, are why would any youngster want to do what he does? He knows no different, but why? Some of the supermarket drivers are working more social hours.

Not to mention the personal affects the job has had.

Friends I know who left the military have no intention of spending time away from home. Driving a lorry sounds a doddle compared being crammed on a submarine for 16 weeks, with no daylight, no tv, internet or phone. But would I go driving? If I wanted to spend weeks away I'd have stayed in the Navy, earning a decent wage, with a reasonable pension, and less stress as someone else pointed out.

 

[japancool]

I don't think I've had a driver turn up who's under 40.

Oh well. Bring in automated trucks ASAP.

 

[IanSuth]

I don't think I've had a driver turn up who's under 40.

Oh well. Bring in automated trucks ASAP.

That will create others issues

This is an area I have done some study in - automated trucks (and/or convoys of trucks driving nose to tail like a land train controlled by linked computers) are good IF

1. Most other traffic is also autonomous or semi autonomous
2. You don't have really close junctions

Neither of those conditions exist in the UK, current tech does not cope well with things like motorcycles which have a small radar signature plus change direction and location quickly. Imagine a convoy of 5 trucks driving nose to tail controlled by the lead truck stuck in the centre lane as you approach somewhere like Exeter on the M5 where J29 & 30 are almost touching or M25 J13 &14 by Heathrow T5, how does other traffic join or leave the motorway easily and safely without all vehicles being electronically connected.
Our motorways are very unusual (from a worldwide perspective) in terms of how close junctions are

 

[The Byre]

I used to be a HGV driver in Germany. There was a time when one could support a family on a trucker's wage in Germany. I earned DM2,000 a month plus overtime, which gave me about DM1,600 net. We paid DM125 a month rent, leaving the rest for necessities. That was in the 70s.

Today a German trucker earns just €25,000 to €30,000 a month and taxes and the equivalent of NI can take up to €10,000 of that away. You cannot support a four-person household on €20,000.

Add to that the ever-increasing stress and the ungodly hours and the very high cost of getting an HGV license in the first place in Germany (and here!) and the results are obvious.

Society, governments and trucking companies have all brought this on themselves. More idiotic regulations, worse working conditions, pish-poor pay have all combined to make the job intolerable. If you stop for a pee, the phone rings to find out why you've stopped. If you arrive at a depot outside of some arbitrary time window, some pocket Hitler will shout at you. The slightest thing wrong with your truck - over which you have almost no control - and you get stopped by the police and fined and points put onto your license.

If you want people to move 40-ton trucks day and night, get up at three in the morning to drive hundreds of miles - and carry all the responsibility that entails - you have to treat them decently and pay them properly. €30,000 or £25k doesn't cut it anymore. It ain't even close! You ain't even in the ballpark!

 

[UKSBD]

Is it not a bit like coal mining?

Would they have paid to train someone to be a coal miner in the 80's knowing the pits are going to be closed in 5 years time?

Will we need as many trained HGV drivers in 10 years time?

Why do still even have these great big lorries on the road, why pay a HGV driver 60K a year because it's a skilled, stressful, risky job when you could pay 3 drivers £20k a year driving smaller, safer, stress free, purpose built, electric delivery vehicles?

The sooner we get these HGV's of the road and rethink the infrastructure of moving stuff around the better.

 

[gpietersz]

Why do still even have these great big lorries on the road, why pay a HGV driver 60K a year because it's a skilled, stressful, risky job when you could pay 3 drivers £20k a year driving smaller, safer, stress free, purpose built, electric delivery vehicles?

I can think of a few reasons that will not work.

1. It is quite likely it would be cheaper to run one big vehicle can three smaller ones.
2. Where is the electricity going to come from? It alrady looks like switching to electric cars is not going to be easy for that reason.
3. Its still a skilled job with anti-social hours and stress and responsibility so you are still going to have those three people reasonably well.
4. A lot of these are container lorries that mean you can move a standard size container from ship to rail to road. You could switch to shorter containers (half size) which would still fit neatly, but that still means more boxes to load, unload move.

Question for those in the industry: I have read HGV drivers are being offered much better pay now. Is that generally true or only certain industries?

 

[The Byre]

Why do still even have these great big lorries on the road, why pay a HGV driver 60K a year because it's a skilled, stressful, risky job when you could pay 3 drivers £20k a year driving smaller, safer, stress free, purpose built, electric delivery vehicles?

Dream on!

No driver gets £60k. The most you can hope for is £45k for dangerous loads (e.g. tanker trucks). The average wage is about £25k. Aldi and Lidl pay £30k. And you cannot pay a panel-van driver £20k. Offering a rubbish wage like that will get you no applicants.

Question for those in the industry: I have read HGV drivers are being offered much better pay now. Is that generally true or only certain industries?

Sort of, but very slowly and unwillingly! Aldi and Lidl pay 10% above average for most jobs and that goes for 40-ton HGV drivers as well.

But as was stated at the top of this thread, nobody wants to pay for transport and that ripples down to the pay and conditions for drivers. As a society, we are going to have to either face the reality of doubling our transport costs, or face the reality of empty shelves.

The stark truth of a truck driver no longer being able to live on the measly wages offered up to about a year ago is a direct result of inflation (that the government claims is not happening) and the fact that inflation is a back-door tax on the poor.

 

[gpietersz]

But as was stated at the top of this thread, nobody wants to pay for transport and that ripples down to the pay and conditions for drivers. As a society, we are going to have to either face the reality of doubling our transport costs, or face the reality of empty shelves.

Why has that not caused wages to go up in general?

The entire point of a free market capitalist economy is that we do not (explcitly) decide transport costs "as a society": market forces do it based in what we are, in aggregate, willing to pay. Where it is a matter of pay a bit more or do without (which is the option with transport unless there are locally produced substitute goods) people mostly pay more.

If someone wanting something transported cannot get it done by someone cheaper because they are not able to hire drivers for what they can pay while charging that price, they will (mostly) pay a little bit extra to whoever charges more because they pay drivers better and actually has drivers available. Prices move up a bit, demand drops a bit, some money that would have been spent elsewhere ends up being paid to drivers, and the wheels keep turning.

 

[Newchodge]

Why has that not caused wages to go up in general?

The entire point of a free market capitalist economy is that we do not (explcitly) decide transport costs "as a society": market forces do it based in what we are, in aggregate, willing to pay. Where it is a matter of pay a bit more or do without (which is the option with transport unless there are locally produced substitute goods) people mostly pay more.

If someone wanting something transported cannot get it done by someone cheaper because they are not able to hire drivers for what they can pay while charging that price, they will (mostly) pay a little bit extra to whoever charges more because they pay drivers better and actually has drivers available. Prices move up a bit, demand drops a bit, some money that would have been spent elsewhere ends up being paid to drivers, and the wheels keep turning.

Perhaps because market forces do not work. Especially when there is inequality of power between the parties.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Prices move up a bit, demand drops a bit, some money that would have been spent elsewhere ends up being paid to drivers, and the wheels keep turning.

In my local town there is a Lidl who pay the most, a Tesco who pay decently and offer bonuses and a Sainsbury who pay the least. In the Pandemic people are desperate to get home deliveries. Sainsbury would rather have 3 delivery vans parked up doing nothing than pay more to drivers.

Big guys are well practiced in avoiding wage pressure.

 

[Newchodge]

In my local town there is a Lidl who pay the most, a Tesco who pay decently and offer bonuses and a Sainsbury who pay the least. In the Pandemic people are desperate to get home deliveries. Sainsbury would rather have 3 delivery vans parked up doing nothing than pay more to drivers.

Big guys are well practiced in avoiding wage pressure.

It is also easier for a haulage company that is pressured to agree to a contract with a tight margin to pressure their dirvers to accept less that to fight the big players.

 

[gpietersz]

Perhaps because market forces do not work. Especially when there is inequality of power between the parties.

If that is true then we should all stop running businesses and work to bring about the revolutionQ

It is also easier for a haulage company that is pressured to agree to a contract with a tight margin to pressure their dirvers to accept less that to fight the big players.

Not if they cannot then deliver on that contract because they do not have drivers. It may work in the short term, or if there are unemployed drivers, but I cannot see how it would work if there is a shortage of drivers.

Sainsbury would rather have 3 delivery vans parked up doing nothing than pay more to drivers.

Even if it means losing sales? Assumming its three vans at your local branch its a large part of that branches business, and if replicated nationally would be an enormous loss of revenue. How does that benefit them?

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Even if it means losing sales? Assumming its three vans at your local branch its a large part of that branches business, and if replicated nationally would be an enormous loss of revenue. How does that benefit them?

I don't know. They have also shut their piss-poor fresh fish counter and deli and meat counter. Penzance too. How does that help them?

I blame bean counters. I have enough experience selling to big companies to have learnt that accountants make the rules.

 

[UKSBD]

Even if it means losing sales? Assumming its three vans at your local branch its a large part of that branches business, and if replicated nationally would be an enormous loss of revenue. How does that benefit them?

Judging by my last 2 home deliveries I would think they are probably losing money with them at the moment.

My last order was £61.12 and I received£7.60 in price match refund.

IE.
I ordered chicken thighs at £2 a pack, they didn't have any so sent chicken thigh fillets which should have cost £5.00 but still only charged £2.00

I also ordered 2 loose carrots 8p they sent a 1kg pack but only charged 8p

I ordered multipack of catfood , they sent 4 individual boxes of the more expensive stuff but charged same price

Week before I had an item with short date on it, delivery driver told me if I rejected it, I wouldn't be charged but he would still give it me.

The packers and delivery guys don't care, it's not their money

 

[WaveJumper]

I used to be a HGV driver in Germany. There was a time when one could support a family on a trucker's wage in Germany. I earned DM2,000 a month plus overtime, which gave me about DM1,600 net. We paid DM125 a month rent, leaving the rest for necessities. That was in the 70s.

Today a German trucker earns just €25,000 to €30,000 a month

Was this a miss print?

and taxes and the equivalent of NI can take up to €10,000 of that away. You cannot support a four-person household on €20,000.

Add to that the ever-increasing stress and the ungodly hours and the very high cost of getting an HGV license in the first place in Germany (and here!) and the results are obvious.

Society, governments and trucking companies have all brought this on themselves. More idiotic regulations, worse working conditions, pish-poor pay have all combined to make the job intolerable. If you stop for a pee, the phone rings to find out why you've stopped. If you arrive at a depot outside of some arbitrary time window, some pocket Hitler will shout at you. The slightest thing wrong with your truck - over which you have almost no control - and you get stopped by the police and fined and points put onto your license.

If you want people to move 40-ton trucks day and night, get up at three in the morning to drive hundreds of miles - and carry all the responsibility that entails - you have to treat them decently and pay them properly. €30,000 or £25k doesn't cut it anymore. It ain't even close! You ain't even in the ballpark!

 

[Mark T Jones]

Pre lickdown every supermarket was losing money on home delivery - the nition that its easier or cheaper for them is entirely false (and they lose critical upselling opportunities) - it's basically a rod they made for their own backs

It will be interesting to see how that has changed

 

[WaveJumper]

Pre lickdown every supermarket was losing money on home delivery - the nition that its easier or cheaper for them is entirely false (and they lose critical upselling opportunities) - it's basically a rod they made for their own backs

It will be interesting to see how that has changed

Hit the nail on the head there, it's going to be interesting to see who buckles first. You only have to drive by a Tesco delivery operation and see the hundreds of vans parked up and the scale of the operation to wonder if it really pays in the long run.

 

[The Byre]

Why has that not caused wages to go up in general?

Economic elasticity - or rather the lack of it. Careers tend to be extremely inelastic, esp. in the UK.

A truck driver cannot afford to change career and retrain as a nurse or plumber if he has mouths to feed. As Cyndy is implying, the power once wielded by the unions to get factory workers, truck drivers and other semi-skilled or even skilled workers wages that could support a family has evaporated. The reasons for that change are many and are social, political and economic. But the stark fact remains that many once good jobs are today paying less than enough to feed a family.

Much of these multivarious changes came about as a deliberate tactic by industry and government and with the wholehearted support of the banks, both central and commercial.

QE leads to asset price inflation. Asset price inflation benefits the asset rich and impoverishes the asset poor. We are now heading into full inflation (as I have been warning here on this forum for the past two years!) that will affect all goods and services and not just share prices and houses.

I don't care much what food costs - I don't have to. But if you are White Van Man trying to get by on a take-home pay of less than £20,000 and living in a flat that costs £1,000 a month, the cost of everything and anything is existential.

True inflation in the US is now running at 13.5%. Here it is probably somewhat less. The CPI is hopelessly manipulated. It was supposed to be an index of the cost of maintaining a steady standard of living. This is no longer true because the basket is changed to reflect changing purchasing habits - for example, if the basket used to contain a certain amount of steak and people buy less steak and more chicken, the basket reflects this. But that particular change was caused by an increase in the cost of steak. Chicken is not a replacement for steak, but a poorer substitute. A steady standard of living was in that one small instance not maintained.

That pattern is repeated across everything you do. Houses and flats are smaller. Wild fish is replaced by farmed fish. Newspapers with online websites. And so on. Increases in the price of something lead to fewer sales and therefore to a change in the basket. But that change may also result in a fall in standards and quality.

Was this a misprint?

Yes - a year.

 

[UKSBD]

Pre lickdown every supermarket was losing money on home delivery - the nition that its easier or cheaper for them is entirely false (and they lose critical upselling opportunities) - it's basically a rod they made for their own backs

It will be interesting to see how that has changed

I probably spend 10% less
Save £4 in petrol
Save an hour in time
Delivery usually costs £1.00 from Sainsburys, £8 a month from Tesco

I have 2 (sometimes 3) deliveries a week, one or two from Tesco, one from Sainsbury's and just make sure I spend just enough £40.00 to get the cheap or free delivery.

It must be costing them a fortune

 

[japancool]

Pre lickdown every supermarket was losing money on home delivery

Lickdown sounds like fun.

 

[AllUpHere]

Lickdown sounds like fun.

I was thinking that Mark's autocorrect learning gives us a pretty good peek into his search history.

 

[gpietersz]

Economic elasticity - or rather the lack of it. Careers tend to be extremely inelastic, esp. in the UK.

That should also lead to high increases in pay when there is a shortage of a skill. It may explain why pay growth was low at particular times, but, but why is drivers' pay not shooting up now?

Judging by my last 2 home deliveries I would think they are probably losing money with them at the moment.

In that case why offer the service at all? Or not have a minimum order? Or why not add a delivery charge?

This is no longer true because the basket is changed to reflect changing purchasing habits - for example, if the basket used to contain a certain amount of steak and people buy less steak and more chicken, the basket reflects this. But that particular change was caused by an increase in the cost of steak. Chicken is not a replacement for steak, but a poorer substitute.

If you do not change the basket you end up including the cost of vinyl LPs and ignoring mobile phones.

 

[SillyBill]

I used to watch Question Time for many years, until I couldn't. One of the laughable (or should that be laudable) items often raised was "immigration doesn't affect wages". 2020-21 case study: Foreign drivers go home and truck drivers are experiencing the fastest inflation in wages in decades. 2 increases intra year for our regular collection driver.

Immaterial of one's stance on immigration, to say it hasn't impacted wages is beyond a silly thing to say, for a business person anyway. Personally I don't mind the inflation to give these guys a living wage, our rates have gone up owing to the spiralling wages. So have our prices. I am also aware there are other factors in this too, it is definitely a perfect storm.

But what is new here? Is trucking any different to most other sectors? Every year we set about doing more for less, a key metric for us is turnover over headcount. I've been pushing that number up for years, its one of the reasons we have longevity and others bite the dust around us. And it isn't on truck companies IMO, customer and society informs them what they are willing to pay.

 

[oz07]

Someone I know thru agency at walkers crisps on 24hr. Ir35 meant they had to wrap ltd company up so wages have gone up to compensate higher tax. I presume they even get holiday pay if umbrella now?