Europe should we stay in or get out?

[japancool]

We are told that our youth are stupid, not willing to work for minimum wage and are lazy beggars that would rather live off their parents and / or the state.

We are told that the migrants who come here are the young, fit and well educated, and therefore are taking jobs from Brits.

The question then is, if what you said is *not* true, with free movement of labour, why aren't the young, fit, well educated and employed Brits moving to Germany or Norway or Denmark to look for work?

 

[john1989]

We are told that the migrants who come here are the young, fit and well educated, and therefore are taking jobs from Brits.

The question then is, if what you said is *not* true, with free movement of labour, why aren't the young, fit, well educated and employed Brits moving to Germany or Norway or Denmark to look for work?

It's probably down to the language barriers.

Many Europeans can speak English, but not many English speaking Brits can speak other languages.
It's a woeful part of our education system that we don't promote foreign languages more.

 

[japancool]

I wonder why Britain doesn't just refuse the free movement of labour. Then see what the EU will do about it. What can they do? Suppose they fine Britain. We don't pay it. Suppose they raise punitive tariff barriers. They want the political project to succeed so badly that we simply say if you do, we leave. Then the ball's in their court to see how much they want it.

 

[japancool]

It's probably down to the language barriers.

Many Europeans can speak English, but not many English speaking Brits can speak other languages.
It's a woeful part of our education system that we don't promote foreign languages more.

That's true, but suppose someone finds an opportunity in, I dunno, Finland. There are 27 languages in the EU, it would be a struggle for someone to be able to work anywhere in the EU in practise, which makes a mockery of the free movement of labour principle.

Unless, of course, the EU is willing to abolish all national languages and make English the sole language of the union.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

As for the EU Council presidency, it is rotated between member states every 6 months. The current presidency is held by The Netherlands. Guess who will hold the EU council presidency next year? The United Kingdom.

The nation with presidency does not do much more than organise and facilitate meetings. It's not a position that holds any influence. It is a chore more than anything else - that's why the term is only 6 months.

They do more than that. They set the agenda and focus collective efforts on certain topics.

I do not dispute that the EU should contain a degree of euroscepticism, which it currently does. There needs to be a balance, with two sides debating the case between bringing EU members closer together and also keeping certain aspects further apart for the good of the Union.

We are one of the most eurosceptic countries out there (hence our exclusion from the Euro, the Schengen Area and the many opt-outs we have regarding various matters). We will soon have a stronger voice than ever to help shape the EU and factor in the concerns of everyone who leans that way.

Like I said, even if we leave, we will still be heavily intertwined with the EU no matter what. The European countries are all our neighbours and largest trading partners by far in total, and all of them are in the EU or EEA.

I firmly believe it is in our best interests to stay within and, as one of the largest voices with one of the largest EU Parliament voting powers, lead the EU to help shape it.

To be truthfully honest - and this is only my opinion here - I think in the next decade we will see a EU-wide restriction on migration, with power put back to members to control the flow.

David Cameron negotiated certain welfare benefit changes imposed on EU migrants only, which would have been thought virtually impossible just a few years ago. When you factor that in with recent comments from the likes of Tusk, it shows that change and reform is coming.

Members of the EU do hold all the power overall. Certain heads of the EU might have certain agendas, but at the end of the day they cannot force them upon members because it's very easy for those members to leave. They will always be acutely aware of that.

To preserve the EU as it is, they simply have no choice but to keep everyone happy.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

That's true, but suppose someone finds an opportunity in, I dunno, Finland. There are 27 languages in the EU, it would be a struggle for someone to be able to work anywhere in the EU in practise, which makes a mockery of the free movement of labour principle.

Unless, of course, the EU is willing to abolish all national languages and make English the sole language of the union.

Obviously you have not worked with companies on the mainland. I have seen offices in Italy, Spain, Holland and Germany where the staff from all over Europe hold meetings in English.

When I was doing business in Germany I was told never to ask if a person answering the phone spoke English. It was considered an insult and implied that the switchboard operator had not finished High School.

I once came across 2 Germans during an office coffee break discussing one of their holidays, in English. They explained that even for social interactions in the office they used English.

I do not understand why the Brexits are willing to deny UK citizens the wonderful opportunities of working and living in Europe.

There are estimated to be more Graduate courses on the mainland in English than there are in the UK.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...sh-economy-amid-fears-of-brexit-a7069786.html

Investors are moving billions of pounds in assets out of British currency and assets ahead of the European Union referendum, new figures suggest.

Around £65bn left the UK or was converted into other currencies in March and April, the largest amount since the economic crash.

In the six months to the end of April, £77bn was pulled out of British pounds, compared to just £2bn in the six months to the end of last October.

That's just from the threat of leaving. Just imagine what would happen if we do leave.

 

[ShirleyM]

I do not understand why the Brexits are willing to deny UK citizens the wonderful opportunities of working and living in Europe.

Speaking for myself, I have no wish to deny anyone the opportunity to live and work in Europe. Why would Brexit cause that to happen?

The EU will never reform. They are too single minded. If they abandoned the disastrous Euro then I may change my opinion, but I reckon I am on a safe bet.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

We are told that the migrants who come here are the young, fit and well educated, and therefore are taking jobs from Brits.

The question then is, if what you said is *not* true, with free movement of labour, why aren't the young, fit, well educated and employed Brits moving to Germany or Norway or Denmark to look for work?

They do:

Belgium - 27,800
Denmark - 18,000
France - 172,000
Germany - 96,000
Ireland - 253,000
Netherlands - 49,000
Poland - 37,000
Cyprus - 43,000
Italy - 72,000
Spain - 381,000
Sweden - 23,000

Over 1.2 million British people live elsewhere in the EU.

 

[japancool]

Obviously you have not worked with companies on the mainland. I have seen offices in Italy, Spain, Holland and Germany where the staff from all over Europe hold meetings in English.

When I was doing business in Germany I was told never to ask if a person answering the phone spoke English. It was considered an insult and implied that the switchboard operator had not finished High School.

I once came across 2 Germans during an office coffee break discussing one of their holidays, in English. They explained that even for social interactions in the office they used English.

I do not understand why the Brexits are willing to deny UK citizens the wonderful opportunities of working and living in Europe.

There are estimated to be more Graduate courses on the mainland in English than there are in the UK.

Actually, I have, but that's not the question being asked. You won't always be in the microcosm of your workplace and do you really expect all of your colleagues to speak English for your benefit?

As for "denying the opportunity for people to work" - if their skills are needed, then they'll be able to work in those countries - just in the same way that they're able to work in countries all over the world that are not in the EU.

 

[john1989]

Speaking for myself, I have no wish to deny anyone the opportunity to live and work in Europe. Why would Brexit cause that to happen?

The EU will never reform. They are too single minded. If they abandoned the disastrous Euro then I may change my opinion, but I reckon I am on a safe bet.

It's scaremongering. They would just have to apply for work visas like you have to do for non-EU countries.

Exiting the EU will not stop Brits seeking and engaging in work overseas.

 

[japancool]

They do:

Belgium - 27,800
Denmark - 18,000
France - 172,000
Germany - 96,000
Ireland - 253,000
Netherlands - 49,000
Poland - 37,000
Cyprus - 43,000
Italy - 72,000
Spain - 381,000
Sweden - 23,000

Over 1.2 million British people live elsewhere in the EU.

Now, how many of those are of working age (about 800,000 according to Migration Watch)? 3.3 million EU migrants live in the UK, of whom 2.1 are working.

That equates to 2.5 working migrants coming in for every 1 going abroad. So it's certainly not a proportionate flow.

Are there any figures on the kinds of jobs the British migrants are doing abroad vs what the EU migrants are doing here? Because if a British engineer is working in Germany, that doesn't seem to be a very fair exchange.

 

[ShirleyM]

That's just from the threat of leaving. Just imagine what would happen if we do leave.

That's peanuts compared to what will happen when the Euro fails, and it will. They can't keep printing money without suffering the consequences.

Brexit all the way.

 

[japancool]

It is certainly not unreasonable for any country to say that you are welcome to come and live here if you have skills we need and will make a contribution to the society and economy. I fail to see why that's a problem.

 

[japancool]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...sh-economy-amid-fears-of-brexit-a7069786.html



That's just from the threat of leaving. Just imagine what would happen if we do leave.

That's down to investor fears. It's not an active act of sabotage by European governments. If Brexit happens, the pound may fall in the short term and there might be capital flight. But once certainty returns, who knows?

Plus, a fall in the pound makes British exports more competitive and the relative cost of labour cheaper as well.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Speaking for myself, I have no wish to deny anyone the opportunity to live and work in Europe. Why would Brexit cause that to happen?

EU migrants come to the UK based on the EU's free movement of people. Likewise, UK migrants can move elsewhere in Europe on the same principle.

Once we leave the EU, that stops. We may shut the door on a portion of the EU migrants entering the UK, but we will also be shutting the door on many of the UK migrants wanting to live elsewhere in Europe.

The EU will never reform. They are too single minded. If they abandoned the disastrous Euro then I may change my opinion, but I reckon I am on a safe bet.

There is no single mind. That's the point.

After this referendum, the UK and every other member will still have the complete right to leave whenever they wish at any point. If the EU pushes its luck and tries to coerce countries into doing things they don't want to do, countries will just leave. Perhaps a large number of them. The EU has already recognised the rise in euroscepticism in the general public, given Tusk's comments that we should drop the idea of further integration.

The EU knows fine well that it needs to keep all members as happy as possible. With any member's ability to quit the EU at any point, it's the countries within which hold all the aces, and especially the largest economies such as the UK.

If we remain post-referendum, I think we'll see the EU going down a much better path, because it's a wake-up call that members within, especially the largest members, are prepared to put their membership on the line. With this current referendum hotting up to be a very close race, and eurosceptic public opinion on the rise, they will know that just one more step in the wrong direction could cause more members than just the UK to consider going out.

 

[japancool]

That's peanuts compared to what will happen when the Euro fails, and it will. They can't keep printing money without suffering the consequences.

Brexit all the way.

The Euro won't fail due to QE. It will fail because of a huge mismatch in the economies of constituent countries, and the fact that the Germans refuse to accept losses for their national banks.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

It's scaremongering. They would just have to apply for work visas like you have to do for non-EU countries.

Exiting the EU will not stop Brits seeking and engaging in work overseas.

Yes it will.

At the moment, most non-EEA migrants trying to enter the UK must have secured a job with a salary of at least £35,000. A penny under, and you're declined.

If we apply that to EU countries in the event of an exit, and they reciprocate in kind, it will shut the doors to tens of thousands of British people wanting to live and work abroad.

 

[japancool]

EU migrants come to the UK based on the EU's free movement of people. Likewise, UK migrants can move elsewhere in Europe on the same principle.

Having a principle in law does not mitigate the practical difficulties.

Once we leave the EU, that stops. We may shut the door on a portion of the EU migrants entering the UK, but we will also be shutting the door on many of the UK migrants wanting to live elsewhere in Europe.

As I pointed out earlier, that works 2.5:1 in our favour.

Skilled migrants will still be able to work wherever their skills are in demand - in both directions..

 

[ShirleyM]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...sh-economy-amid-fears-of-brexit-a7069786.html

That's just from the threat of leaving. Just imagine what would happen if we do leave.

I was googling for the investor cash dash and found this ... and then realised it was April 2015.

Did we have an EU referendum last year too?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/apr/30/investors-withdraw-record-1bn-from-uk-equity-funds

 

[japancool]

Yes it will.

At the moment, most non-EEA migrants trying to enter the UK must have secured a job with a salary of at least £35,000. A penny under, and you're declined.

If we apply that to EU countries in the event of an exit, and they reciprocate in kind, it will shut the doors to tens of thousands of British people wanting to live and work abroad.

Well, to start with, the threshold is so high because it's an attempt to curb non-EEA immigration, because that's the only immigration that can be controlled. With other controls in place, there's no reason why the threshold needs to be so high.

And if there's a threshold, where's the issue? It ensures that skilled workers are entering, not £7.20 an hour fruit pickers.

It's simply a case of setting the threshold correctly to suit the needs of the economy of the time.

 

[japancool]

I was googling for the investor cash dash and found this ... and then realised it was April 2015.

Did we have an EU referendum last year too?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/apr/30/investors-withdraw-record-1bn-from-uk-equity-funds

No, but we had an election in which the party leading the polls promised an in/out referendum.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

That's down to investor fears. It's not an active act of sabotage by European governments. If Brexit happens, the pound may fall in the short term and there might be capital flight. But once certainty returns, who knows?

Plus, a fall in the pound makes British exports more competitive and the relative cost of labour cheaper as well.

I didn't say it was due to European sabotage, did I?

Uncertainty definitely does spook investment, which is a key principle of UK growth. If we leave, and we spend years negotiating agreements which may ultimately not be as favourable to us as our current single market access, then this could cause damage to the UK which lasts for decades.

"Who knows" kind of sums up the Brexit argument. Brexit supporters have openly admitted that the UK will be damaged in the short-to-medium term, and yet offer no clear answers on what will happen after that.

I also find it amusing that you say "may" fall. The Pound is experiencing sharp declines just when new opinion polls come out suggesting that leave is marginally ahead.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Students and workers now have help with their freedom of movement. The EU Health card means that students and workers in Europe do not have the burden of health insurance to pay for.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Well, to start with, the threshold is so high because it's an attempt to curb non-EEA immigration, because that's the only immigration that can be controlled. With other controls in place, there's no reason why the threshold needs to be so high.

And if there's a threshold, where's the issue?

The issue is British people being held to the same threshold when it comes to the EU and many thousands of Brits having the right to work and live in Europe being taken away from them.

This is not a debate about the merits of it. This was merely in response to the point about whether Brexit will deprive British people the right to live in Europe. It will certainly deprive a lot of them.

 

[john1989]

Yes it will.

At the moment, most non-EEA migrants trying to enter the UK must have secured a job with a salary of at least £35,000. A penny under, and you're declined.

If we apply that to EU countries in the event of an exit, and they reciprocate in kind, it will shut the doors to tens of thousands of British people wanting to live and work abroad.

Why should Brits be allowed to go work abroad if they have no skills that will benefit their chosen country?

 

[Deleted member 59730]

The Euro is not failing. Its the Pound and Dollar that are not doing so well. Both are well below what they were on the day the Euro launched.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Why should Brits be allowed to go work abroad if they have no skills that will benefit their chosen country?

Maybe they should. Maybe they shouldn't.

My point was directed at Shirley who asked whether Brexit would stop many British people living and working in Europe.

Having the right "skills" is quite a narrow view though. Any migrant working in another country is expanding productivity, paying taxes and increasing consumer spending within that country.

 

[john1989]

Maybe they should. Maybe they shouldn't.

My point was directed at Shirley who asked whether Brexit would stop many British people living and working in Europe.

Having the right "skills" is quite a narrow view though. Any migrant working in another country is expanding productivity, paying taxes and increasing consumer spending within that country.

If the country has very low unemployment with sufficient infrastructure, letting in any Tom, Dick and Harry isn't an issue.

When you have relatively high unemployment, a housing shortage and pressures on other resources such as healthcare and education, letting in workers with no barriers is an issue.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Why should Brits be allowed to go work abroad if they have no skills that will benefit their chosen country?

Because its a RIGHT. Why should you vote for Brexit and deny your children and grandchildren rights enjoyed by all citizens of the EU? Why deny others the right?

Why cut off access to an entity which does so much for ordinary people?

 

[john1989]

Because its a RIGHT. Why should you vote for Brexit and deny your children and grandchildren rights enjoyed by all citizens of the EU? Why deny others the right?

Why cut off access to an entity which does so much for ordinary people?

Voting to leave does nothing of the sort.

 

[japancool]

I didn't say it was due to European sabotage, did I?

Given that's where the discussion was at at that time, I'd say it was implied.

Uncertainty definitely does spook investment, which is a key principle of UK growth. If we leave, and we spend years negotiating agreements which may ultimately not be as favourable to us as our current single market access, then this could cause damage to the UK which lasts for decades.

"Who knows" kind of sums up the Brexit argument. Brexit supporters have openly admitted that the UK will be damaged in the short-to-medium term, and yet offer no clear answers on what will happen after that.

So? It's based on agreements yet to be concluded and terms yet to be negotiated. Can the Remain campaign do any better? Can you tell me what effect future EU legislation will have on the British economy? Of course not, because you don't know what they are yet.

Better still, can you tell me what effect the TTIP will have, or the accession of Turkey will have, both things that might happen?

If you say the Leave campaign can't predict what will happen, why should you believe the Remain campaign's predictions?

I also find it amusing that you say "may" fall. The Pound is experiencing sharp declines just when new opinion polls come out suggesting that leave is marginally ahead.

I notice you used "may" yourself (highlighted above), yet you call me out on the word?

There is no absolutely certainty that it *will* fall if Brexit is voted for. The risk may have been factored in by the time the poll happens. Pro-Europe MPs might announce they will use their majority to remain in the EEA.

 

[japancool]

Because its a RIGHT. Why should you vote for Brexit and deny your children and grandchildren rights enjoyed by all citizens of the EU? Why deny others the right?

Why cut off access to an entity which does so much for ordinary people?

I would hope my children and grandchildren will have the skills and education to work wherever they want.

Why don't we extend this right to India, China, Nigeria, Syria, Afghanistan? They're ordinary people too.

 

[japancool]

Maybe they should. Maybe they shouldn't.

My point was directed at Shirley who asked whether Brexit would stop many British people living and working in Europe.

Having the right "skills" is quite a narrow view though. Any migrant working in another country is expanding productivity, paying taxes and increasing consumer spending within that country.

It's not a narrow view. Inevitably, employing a migrant has opportunity costs, social costs and monetary costs. Do they generate enough in return to warrant those costs?

If there is an unemployed local person who could do the same job at the same wage, then the answer is no.

 

[japancool]

The Euro is not failing. Its the Pound and Dollar that are not doing so well. Both are well below what they were on the day the Euro launched.

A strong Euro is not necessarily a good sign for Europeans.

 

[john1989]

@ShirleyM mentioned the quality of life worsening.

Quality of life isn't just measured by take home pay and costs of living. It's also work / life balance l, health and other factors.

TB was practically eradicated in Europe. I wonder what the prime cause is for it resurfacing in Europe?

 

[sirearl]

For those to young to have experienced the lowering of living standards in the UK.

In 1970 I owned a 15 room house in inner London ( current value 1.5 million) drove a Humber super snipe was married with 3 kids.

My wife did not work,yet I was able to provide a comfortable life working as a Toolmaker.(not the best paid job around)

I would suggest that a couple both working full time in reasonably well paid jobs would struggle to maintain that standard.?

http://www.ier.org.uk/news/real-wag...0s-and-living-standards-are-not-about-recover

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

If the country has very low unemployment with sufficient infrastructure, letting in any Tom, Dick and Harry isn't an issue.

When you have relatively high unemployment, a housing shortage and pressures on other resources such as healthcare and education, letting in workers with no barriers is an issue.

Firstly, we have the 4th lowest unemployment in the EU, behind only the Czech Republic, Germany and Malta. Migrants are coming in, but they, alongside British people, are finding jobs and contributing to the British economy.

Secondly, who's to blame for housing, healthcare and education problems? Is it the EU migrants, or is it actually the right-wing UK Government imposing 6 years of strict austerity measures and privatisation?

Schools are being forced to become academies. The NHS is being privatised and funding cut whilst staff wages are slashed to force through the "7 day NHS" with inadequate staff numbers. Fewer homes have been built by this Government than any other Government in many decades.

None of the above would be an issue if it wasn't for the actions of our own Government.

 

[ShirleyM]

Because its a RIGHT. Why should you vote for Brexit and deny your children and grandchildren rights enjoyed by all citizens of the EU? Why deny others the right?

Losing our democracy and sovereignty (and our right to have self government) is a high price to pay for the (relatively speaking) few who want to work abroad without the inconvenience of obtaining a work permit.

Personally I think it inadvisable to exchange some pretty substantial RIGHTS of the majority (over 60 million) for a very limited benefit to the few (1.2 million).

 

[ShirleyM]

Firstly, we have the 4th lowest unemployment in the EU, behind only the Czech Republic, Germany and Malta. Migrants are coming in, but they, alongside British people, are finding jobs and contributing to the British economy.

I dispute that statement.

We only have low unemployment because of zero hours jobs and false self employment. I don't think this government is the only one to massage unemployment figures, but many 'jobs' are not real jobs.

In any case, a low wage economy does not benefit any country, and an immigrant on minimum wages does NOT contribute more than they take. Low paid jobs do not help the economy unless they are removing people from unemployment. This does not happen when immigrants are shipped in hundreds at a time by companies such as Next plc and Sports Direct.