How to get into accountancy

[graemepirie]

My son is about to finish a business course at college. He's taken a liking to accountancy & wants to develop a career in this field.

He's been told that there are 2 paths he can take - university or working for a firm that will put him through his exams.

Which is the best route for him to take? How would he go about finding a firm that offers this?

Thanks

 

[profitxchange]

Why not contact the professional bodies for the sector, they should be able to advise, and give you names of local practices that take trainees.

If I were to choose I would also go for a management/forensic accountancy bias.

 

[Williams lester]

I would choose the working option. It's all very well having the academic qualification, but you will still need the practical experience to go with it, so learning whilst getting experience for me every time.

 

[CassioAcc]

I agree, but it depends who you want to get your training with. The degree would give you a better chance of finding employment / training with a blue chip.

Do they want to work in practice / industry ?

 

[Zeno]

I would say he is best trying to get a training contract from an accountancy firm from the start. Even if he does go to uni, he will still have to do this to become a chartered accounant but in my opinion he will learn more in practice than at uni.

Basically, this means he will be qualified sooner and see the resultant increase in his earnings.

The Big 4 firms only take graduates and competetion is fierce so a good start would be writing to local practices.

Afraid it is not the best time though.

 

[biomed86]

I don't know anything about accounting degrees etc, but my cousin became interested in accounting whilst working as a Secretary for Grant Thornton (which I think is quite a big firm), and they have now taken her on as a trainee, whilst also helping her fund her studying for an accountacy qualification.

I'm not saying your son should start off as a sec, but my cousin mentioned that one of the reasons she had an upper hand against other applicants for the trainee posts is that they valued her experience with the company over the degrees other applicants had (even though her experience wasn't strictly accounting experience).

So that makes me think the working route might be a good idea

 

[DFL]

Ask him first why he wants to become an accountant, what he wants to achieve out of it and what his expectations are.

There is a big investment required both in time and opportunity so he needs to be sure that this is the right destination for him before he chooses the path to get him there.

I'd be happy to have a chat with him.

 

[Zeno]

Ask him first why he wants to become an accountant, what he wants to achieve out of it and what his expectations are

That's some very good advice.

Accountancy does not get you girls, popular fame or the respect & admiration of young children (not matter how good your tax advice is it won't compare to Tommy Johnston's Dad who is a fireman when "What my daddy does" comes up at school).

On the plus side it is generally steady, respectable work and there is money in it that can lead to chicks if you are good at it.

 

[Wild Goose]

Back in the dark ages, when a 3 bedroomed semi cost less than £50k and £500 bought you a decent motor, the going rate for a newly qualified accountant with some training was £24k in my part of the world. Everyone else I knew seemed to earn less.

Even before the recession, I regular receive flyers from the employment bureaus offering the same newly qualifieds for the same £24k. Everyone else seems to earn more.

Accountants' salaries have halved in my opinion. In real terms that is. I believe they will continue to fall, unless auditing makes a comeback. Tell your son that if money is important to him then he should become a plumber or a cabbie, because they can earn double what an accountant's salary has become.

Exceptions: tax advisor or insolvency. Both are specialist, and you tend to have to qualify as a chartered accountant first off. There is a back-door way to becoming a (well-paid) chartered tax advisor by skipping 3 years of university and a furter 2 or 3 of training contract to become a chartered accountant, if he takes the tax technician route. That's an entry passport to the chartered taxation course - quick back-door route.

I'd think twice about uni too unless it's a proper one - the Government's current plans are to return about half the universities in the country - the former polytechnics - back to their original status. Bad luck on all those with a degree from Bolton polytechnic - sorry, I meant Bolton University - and it will mean racking up a huge student-debt for what really will become polytechnic degrees within the next few years. (By revert to their original status, that will mean getting them to teach the hands-on subjects they used to - but because they are unlikely to relinquish their university status the government plan to allow them to continue dishing out degrees, but in practical subjects like carpentry or mechanics).

It used to be possible to take Chartered Certified Accountancy without a degree - does that still happen? An Oxford college mopped up most of the ACCAs without degrees a few years back - a few hundred quid and a hastily cobbled together thesis bought you an Oxford degree. Actually from the Oxford Brookes University (yes yes a former college - a poly I presume - and certainly not part of the proper Oxford collegiate). But if your son is hell bent on accountancy then chartered certified might be the answer if that can still be done without a degree.

If it were my son asking me, I'd get him to look at the tax technician route to Chartered Tax Advisor. Come to think of it, when it was my son asking me, I told him to go find something more interesting and better paid.

 

[graemepirie]

Thanks to all of you for the extremely helpful replies.

He's thought long and hard about it. He's always been into computers & is an absolute whizz with most systems & applications. A few years ago web development was his aim but despite some offers he went to college to do a business course.

He seems to have really taken to the accountancy parts of the course & seems pretty determined that it's what he wants to do.

DFL - thanks for the offer - I'll PM you.

 

[Wild Goose]

There's another high paid niche in systems auditing - broadly for qualified accountants who are tech-savvy enough to be able to understand computer systems sufficiently well to audit them. Tends to be with the larger practices with larger blue chip clients who pay well.

That might be more up his street. Same advice as before - if you want the quick route - skipping uni - think about a chartered certified training contract, without a degree. I'm fairly certain that's still possible - maybe someone else will post if not.

Doing the first year of ACCA full time at a local college can make your son an attractive proposition for a training contract if hs results turn out ok.

 

[ademoore]

There is also the route of CIMA. I studied through working in industry (construction) and gained AAT which gave good a grounding of the accountancy world. Once I completed AAT I decided on CIMA and moved to the manufacturing industry. Here, I got excellent insight into systems and even seconded out to systems implementation. IT skills can be put to some very good use in industry, looking at systems and the data it is producing, where it is being used/needed and trying to get more out of it (amongst other things of course!!)

 

[David Griffiths]

Accountants' salaries have halved in my opinion. In real terms that is. I believe they will continue to fall,. . . .

Exceptions: tax advisor or insolvency. Both are specialist, and you tend to have to qualify as a chartered accountant first off. There is a back-door way to becoming a (well-paid) chartered tax advisor by skipping 3 years of university and a furter 2 or 3 of training contract to become a chartered accountant, if he takes the tax technician route. That's an entry passport to the chartered taxation course - quick back-door route.


It used to be possible to take Chartered Certified Accountancy without a degree - does that still happen?.....

If it were my son asking me, I'd get him to look at the tax technician route to Chartered Tax Advisor. Come to think of it, when it was my son asking me, I told him to go find something more interesting and better paid.

Some interesting points in there.

I think that the other exception is the minority of firms who offer what are known as value added services - a bit of a cliche but services including strategic planning, retirement planning, higher level tax advice etc, and which are systemised as much as possible. Many firms claim to do this, few really do. The old style firms relying on compliance work will find margins squeezed by technology and the low barriers to entry, and earnings will continue to fall.

No I don't think that you need a degree, certainly not for ACCA and no longer for ICAEW, afaik. ICAEW tried a graduate only route about 30 years ago, and that was the disaster that turned people away from Chartered training to Certified - even in Chartered offices. In my mind, it marked the beginning of a decline for ICAEW. Small practices couldn't afford graduates, so didn't train chartered students, and that's a downward spiral.

Many of the firms that I've referred to above complain that they can't get good people. There are jobs there that pay well, and above all offer interesting work because (to steal somebody else's phrase" the grunt work is systemised to non accountants or outsourced. Given that shortage of people, my son has decided to train as an ACA, and was able to get a training contract with PWC. What he does when he qualifies is down to him, but I think that he will have real choices at that stage.

 

[Wild Goose]

Hi David,

I'd agree with you about the valued added services, although I'd have reservations over whether that's the best environment to train in. If it's systemised, our sons might just end up doing the grunt work without learning much. You and I understand Sage because we understand a manual set of books; and likewise understand VT accounts production software because we were brought up on and understand a paper extended trial balance (urghh tippex everywhere!). I guess your son will get a good grounding because it's PWC, and because he could always ask dad! But I'd retain my doubts over training in a highly systemised environment outside of the "Big 4" Accountants

I have my doubts about degrees these days: in my opinion the new waves of 1992 universities are nothing more than an excuse to charge students for their education. Take the uni in your town - used to be a higher education college that taught ACCA courses for anyone with three A-levels, and the local education authorities would pay students' tuition fees and give them a sizeable grant. Nowadays that same institution is a uni and anyone wanting a degree in accountancy has to rack up a cricket score of a bill. Rip-off - I know many people in their late twenties still struggling to pay off their student loan fees - fat Gordon has started selling off the old ones to bad-boy debt collectors recently (I have a beef with this - a young teacher at one school I know committed suicide recently. Fat Gordon's response has been to give even greater powers of entry, including forced entry, to bailiffs).

I'd go the skip uni and get straight into the qual route every time. Except where the uni is a worthwhile establishment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UK_universities_by_date_of_foundation
The Government's current plans are to regrade the 1992 universities to something along the lines of their former polytechnics (except for the essential difference that students will continue to pay for their new poly degrees by racking up huge debts). In short poly degrees - that's post 1992 unis - will in the future be seen as a lesser qual than a degree from an older uni; rather like an HND or a city and Guilds, one supposes.

 

[David Griffiths]

I'd agree with pretty well all of that, and it would be quite easy to get drawn in to a training contract where you are just cannon fodder, dumped with boring work. Fortunately the best firms recognise the dangers of this, and the need to keep things interesting. Finding one, reognising it and getting a training contract are not easy!

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

There are many routes into accountancy and many qualifications available.

It is a very complex area I' afraid with many areas that he can specialise in.

A good way to find out more is via work experience. A 'taster' of each area would be good e.g. tax, audit, accounts, insolvency, corporate finance etc.

No limiting his opinions at this stage would be good.

Careers advise and the mil round is a good place to start with colleges, here:

http://www.milkround.com/news-careers-advice/industry-guide-main

http://www.milkround.com/news-careers-advice/269/Accounting-Auditing--Finance/industry-guide

as a start but your son will find more links I am sure!

 

[Wild Goose]

I guess one way is to obtain a degree from a pre-1992 uni; the other is to skip uni altogether and go the AAT or better again the year 1 ACCA route (the latter being a September to May affair) under your own steam.

Either of the above can make you stand out from the crowd as far as employers are concerned.

I'd have to say consider tax technician as an alternative to accounting technician (AAT). I have a few ACCA pals whose crystal balls are pointing them towards studying for the Chartered Tax qual - tax technician is a very handy back door route as it saves the alternative expense, not to mention the time, of 3 years at uni followed by typically 3 years in a training contract to become a chartered accountant. Both roads lead to the same Rome that is eligibility to study as a Chartered Tax Advisor.

Incidentally, my long-term crystal ball tells me auditing will make a comeback. It has to - I'm coming across more and more people who are rumnning their own mini-Enron and Worldcom companies. Companies House just strike the company off, and they start with a new one every few years. Ours is a country that wants to monitor our visits abroad - I can't see it being too much longer before someone in authority twigs that all limited companies should be audited once again.

 

[Zeno]

Incidentally, my long-term crystal ball tells me auditing will make a comeback. It has to - I'm coming across more and more people who are rumnning their own mini-Enron and Worldcom companies. Companies House just strike the company off, and they start with a new one every few years. Ours is a country that wants to monitor our visits abroad - I can't see it being too much longer before someone in authority twigs that all limited companies should be audited once again.

I am making similiar predictions however I believe that the return to auditing will not be a statutory change but pressure from the credit industry.

For a long time, audited accounts have actually been in the small print of many bank loans etc however I have never heard of this being enforced. Perhaps this may change.

 

[David Griffiths]

Incidentally, my long-term crystal ball tells me auditing will make a comeback.

Oh great. I really love auditing.

Let's hope the long term crystal ball is long enough for me to get out first!

 

[Wild Goose]

I wonder whether we're unintentionally saying the same thing, Zeno?

I believe the credit industry will be the Government from this point on. Gordon's bought up so much of the ailing financial institutions that his government, and more importantly the next one when our unelected leader is removed, will effectively have control of banks' policies.

I'm still chuckling at one as yet unearthed scheme that's on the local grapevine involving a financial adviser who set up a limited company through which he purchased the houses of his prospects who had applied but been turned down for adverse credit re-mortgages. The houses were bought in the names of his staff, many of whom bought a few by finding an out of work relative or two, typically claiming benefits, who would buy the property as a buy-to-let landlord. The owners of the property became tenants, with an option to purchase back later. The property values have of course bombed, the tenants true to form skip rent payments, and the unemployed landlords will take the negative equity hit. The financial adviser has done a runner abroad.

Now I know for sure that all those mortgages haven't even registered with the prime high street lender, a building society, who unwittingly put up the mortgages. Ok we're only talikng of a dozen or two properties, but it makes you wonder how many other such bad-news-for-banks schemes will come out of the woodworkover the coarse of this year. Of course, had the limited company involved been audited.....

 

[Wild Goose]

Oh great. I really love auditing.

Let's hope the long term crystal ball is long enough for me to get out first!

I still don't understand what the random number tables were for.

I can't see ticking and bashing returning - but maybe a more global "let's see whether it's legal" approach. Is the business model flawed? Are the PAYE taxes being paid? In the case I mentioned, should Jeremy Kyle Show contestants be fronting as buy-to-let landlords? I know the Money Laundering Regs try to achieve that - but those are easily circumvented - the company I mentioned simply doesn't have an accountant, and simply doesn't bother to file accounts.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Oh great. I really love auditing.

Let's hope the long term crystal ball is long enough for me to get out first!

Me first - most interesting thing about auditing was deciding which colour pen to use for ticking and who could come up with the most inventive tick