Her Majesty's Online Court

A common complain often aired here is the high cost of court action. In the news today is the publication of a ground breaking Report by the ODR Advisory Group to the Civil Justice Council (which advises the Ministry of Justice on how to modernise the courts) for an Internet based court service with judges hearing cases online an d with much more effort in helping people resolve disputes before they need a judge.

The full Report is available here . I am a member of the Advisory Group that produced the Report. I would be interested to hear comment from UKBF members. Would you feel a wholly online court would still seem like justice or do you still feel it necessary to stand in a court room, with all the cost, delays and anxiety related thereto, in order to obtain justice?
 
Good question. The answer lies in the effectiveness of the highest level of online identity/security. Whilst even the highest level cannot be 100% protection against impersonation, its worth bearing in mind that courts in civil cases (not talking criminal trials which is outside the focus of the Report) do not currently require any form of verified identification of those who stand in the witness box. An online court at least will be able to offer greater protection as well as legacy data for later investigation.
 
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It will lead to a greater number of cases entering into the HMOC. That is the whole point i.e. to increase access to justice. However they enter at Tier 1, where the public is given information, guidance and assistance in better understanding whether they have a case and if so, on ways to resolve directly with the other party, whereafter they then filter to Tier 2 where they will be offered a great variety of ways to resolve, whether using automated blind bidding systems, expert negotiation aides and human facilitators offering newer and more creative forms of mediation than the current limited telephone service offered by Small Claims. Only a very small number of cases will escalate to Tier 3 at which point the judges become involved and then primarily acting online and not in a costly physical court.

Where the judge feels a physical court is necessary e.g. to test the quality of evidence under cross-examination or where a significant point of law has to be addressed and argued, then he has power to direct it to a physical hearing.

Overall while the numbers of cases will rise the number being dealt with at Tier 3 will likely be much less than at present. In this way we deliver both increased access to justice yet at much lower cost both to the parties (as fees will be lower for online services) and to the court service.
 
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cjd

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    Would you feel a wholly online court would still seem like justice or do you still feel it necessary to stand in a court room, with all the cost, delays and anxiety related thereto, in order to obtain justice?

    I think you might be leading the witness a tad :)

    On the face of it, it sounds an interesting idea. BUT, this morning the guy proposing it was comparing it to the 'highly successful' eBay - or was it PayPay? - scheme. It apparently handles 60m cases per year. I'm not sure many here would feel that that system was either fair or just, judging by the comments I read here.

    How will this process demonstrate its impartiality?
     
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    e-Bay is mentioned purely to indicate that such online resolution systems have in fact been set up that handle massive numbers of disputes (30m ebay a year and 30m paypal a year). However we are not suggesting we follow the eBay model. I have been involved in ODR development for over 12 years and systems have now been developed by various companies that go way beyond the current eBay model. For example, look at Rechtwizjer 2.0 now operational in divorce work in the Netherlands.
     
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    cjd

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    e-Bay is mentioned purely to indicate that such online resolution systems have in fact been set up that handle massive numbers of disputes (30m ebay a year and 30m paypal a year). However we are not suggesting we follow the eBay model. I have been involved in ODR development for over 12 years and systems have now been developed by various companies that go way beyond the current eBay model. For example, look at Rechtwizjer 2.0 now operational in divorce work in the Netherlands.

    Sure, but the point of justice is that it's fair and seen to be fair. Is there anything built into it that can demonstrate that?

    I raise the eBay reference because it does seem to be very one-sided; any system can handle large amounts of transactions if there is little concern for fairness and scant chance of a successful appeal. Of course a civil process would start - I would hope - from a position of establishing that it's a transparent and fair process otherwise it won't get public confidence. Just wondering how that's been factored in?
     
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    any system can handle large amounts of transactions if there is little concern for fairness and scant chance of a successful appeal. Of course a civil process would start - I would hope - from a position of establishing that it's a transparent and fair process otherwise it won't get public confidence. Just wondering how that's been factored in?

    Excellent point and one on which we are very much focused. Firstly can I make clear that this is early days with no actual detailed system design yet determined. Best, when you get a chance to read the Report to fully understand where we are coming from.

    I am also a member of the EMCOD team - see www.emcod.net - a EU funded project to research and create a product to help analyse the quality of justice and fairness of ODR systems as perceived by its users. We have published a book ("Costs and Quality of Online Dispute Resolution: A Handbook for Measuring the Costs and Quality of Odr") which contains the questionnaire we have designed as an online exit surtvey. WE have also developed the software for the online survey. Any ODR system can offer users a link to it as an exit survey. In this way ODR will better be able to analyse dynamically user experience than with the physical court.
     
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    cjd

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    Thanks, I'll get round to reading that sometime this week.

    As for surveys - they're fine and laudable but surveys are after the fact. I'm intereted in what safeguards might be built into the process before it's launched so that the surveys will produce the answers that we'd all want. Fixing things after the fact is a pretty hopeless thing to do - particularly in the public sector with its enormously costly IT systems.
     
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    All I can say is that this is a key point which will be addressed. There will be an initial voluntary pilot which will give an opportunity to asses the perceived fairness before anything is put fully in place. The emphasis though is on helping the parties to agree to a resolution which they see as fair rather than to have one imposed.
     
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    I know posting links is not encouraged, but as you have asked for comments, I am posting a blog article which I wrote about this yesterday.

    In the wider context of the firestorm of changes in the legal sector over the last couple of years, I am not convinced that this is driven by anything other than the desire to take the pressure off the courts (see the numerous recent articles in the legal press about Judges tearing their hair out over the numbers of LIPS - put there by the Government changes).

    The MOJ made the same noises about improving access to justice when they were consulting pre-LASPO, and then promptly admitted in the recent enquiry into how implementation had gone, that they had NOT done impact tests after all (as they said they had), and the only criteria applied was to save money from the public purse.

    I remember reading the impact statements at the time. There was one word in the relevant "Impact" box, and that was "none".

    This of course is the CJC, not the Government, but I still struggle to see any evidence that they are not out of touch with society, especially as the country is still hauling itself out of the last recession, and possibly sliding into the next one, Europe permitting.

    I know the Government has set the benchmark for "low value claims" at £25,000, and I also know that £25,000 is lower than £1-2,000,000 (obviously; I do get it), but most people who have lost up to £25,000 would not agree that £25,000 is "low value" - the point being that they need legal help to deal with these cases, and for their solicitors to be able to recover their costs on successful conclusion, so that they can do a proper job.

    The Ebay comparison is fundamentally misconceived - firstly whether they are prepared to admit it or not, their first duty is to their customers, not their vendors. Also, the vendors understand that if they don't swallow a little pride every now and again, they will not last long. Secondly, the legal issues thrown up by Ebay sales are, for the most part, very straightforward, and lend themselves to an arbitrational approach. In short - the law is not complex. On cases involving disputes with tradesmen, defective work, etc, the law can be extremely complex. With the greatest of respect, I do not agree that Ebay is a suitable model for an impartial dispute resolution service and was surprised to see it in there.

    It could be a good thing, but ONLY if done properly. Anyway, I've said enough - the rest is in my blog.
     
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    Thanks Dean for a thought provoking blog. Your concerns are understandable and you have good reasons to hold them but I can assure you that if you had sat with me in the Advisory Group meetings and knew the members, or indeed read the inspirational work of our Chair, Professor Richard Susskind, I think you would likely take a somewhat more optimistic view.

    Firstly, can I suggest, if you have not already done so, that you read the Report itself as well as the supporting documents on the website. Further I suggest you take a look at the system now in operation in the Netherlands (Rechtwijzer 2.0) albeit initially run for family cases and the new Civil Resolution Tribunal in British Columbia which are the closest examples, in general terms, of the model we have envisaged.

    Our principal message is that the court should be a service not a building. Whilst the cost reductions that will flow are of course highly relevant, the real driver has been to significantly improve access to justice and to speedy and fair resolution of disputes. I am sure you will not disagree with me that, after the initial growth in Legal Aid followed by the Woolf improvements in the litigation process, and the establishment of the Small Claims Track, access increased, but the subsequent slow and now almost total destruction of public funding of lawyers fees in civil cases, together with the increases in court fees, has reversed the trend and we are back to the 19th Century levels of access immortalised in Sir James Mathew's statement that "The Law is open to all like the Ritz Hotel". We are determined to reverse that trend and exploit technology as an aid to that end so that the Law becomes as accessible as a Travelodge.

    You say " With the greatest of respect, I do not agree that Ebay is a suitable model for an impartial dispute resolution service and was surprised to see it in there". I fully agree, We have not suggested such as our model. The press reaction and use of 'eBay' is simply short form for using online technology to the re-invention of the process of resolution, in much the same way as the complex subject of Alternative Business Structures for law firms was trivialised as 'Tesco Law'. Of course we refer to eBay but only as an example of how technology can enable huge volumes of disputes (60 million a year) to be dealt with, and , importantly, how it helped most of them to be resolved directly between the parties themselves.The main problem with eBay lies in the quality of adjudication by eBay staff. We envisage professionally trained and experienced neutrals as well. of course, as judges. Further the eBay model is very simplistic and does not utilise the sort of technology and processes we have outlined in our Report. I personally set up and ran two pilots for PayPal on eBay disputes which used small claims court mediators to engage in full online mediation, much more like what our Report now envisages, albeit without the additional facilities of evaluation and diagnosis. Those disputes were dealt with effectively and the post pilot survey undertaken by the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies revealed good satisfaction levels.

    I understand and appreciate your cynicism , but, given the current problems with court access and cost, what is not to like in the principle of examining and trialling the benefits of technology? As someone at the coal face of civil litigation please continue to keep this in your sights but at the same time consider the question 'what would you suggest?'.
     
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    Banksbroo

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    I appreciate on-line systems when they work well - personally I find the HMRC self-assessment site excellent. I'm encouraged at the chance to use an-online system for small claims type activities. These can increase access for users and keep costs to a minimum.

    However for larger, or just more complex civil cases, such as those needing legal representation, the real costs are the legal representation itself. I wouldn't be surprised if the costs of representation in the short term would still be based on "court days" even when no presence was required.

    As part of a community group, I have been involved in a non-business, non-family civil case where the costs of representation exceeded £100k on the first occasion, and on appeal we are waiting with baited breath the final legal bill.

    Where litigation is asymetric in terms of financial resource, the poorer party is likely to come off worse, the new system would just help deliver the news sooner.

    A system which could level the playing field between the financial resources of the litigants and respondants (such as can happen with the small claims system) would be a significant step forward to increasing access to justice.
     
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    Thanks Dean for a thought provoking blog.

    Hi Graham
    I read the report in detail before I wrote the blog article (and would never have done otherwise). It is a very interesting proposition. My concern (well, my main concern) is how much of the idea will be lost in transition. As I have said above, in principle, it is a good idea. Implicit in that view is the fact that I agree increased use of technology is a potentially beneficial evolution, but how far do we go with it? More accurately, how far is it safe to go?

    To expand, there are several points that arise out of the above paragraph. The first is that the CJC have consulted on this but won’t be implementing it, just as LJ Jackson wrote the report which led to LASPO, but didn’t implement it. The Government will be implementing it, if anyone does. My cynicism derives from long experience of systems implemented by the Government - ie: the Low Value Claims Portal which was always expected by commentators to lead to precisely the behaviour to which it has led – namely that when you cut recoverable legal costs for a case which could take anything from 3 to 18 months to resolve, by 60% (£1,350 to £500), there is only one way solicitors can make a profit. Unpalatable to talk about, even taboo, but true.

    As I said in my blog, the Government and technology have had a rocky relationship. Whilst the idea may be sound, I don’t accept that the Government would implement this proposal, if they do, to fix an “ozone hole” of their own creation, for any reason other than to shore up (or reduce the drain on) the public purse.

    Putting those points together, if the Government implements this, I do not expect anything better than the Low Value Claims Portal, which, it is commonly accepted in the industry, is responsible for dramatic growth in the professional negligence industry in the last 12 months: ie: lawyers rush and/or screw up your case; more lawyers sue them. There is even now a rash of adverts for firms that deal with such work.

    The supreme irony of this point is that most injury claims are of value of less than £5000 (approximately 90%). If your lawyer screws up your case, because the injury case is settled albeit negligently, any resultant professional negligence case will be a contract case, and therefore within the small claims limit (the irony should be becoming apparent right about now).

    So the Government's brainchild - the Low Value Claims Portal - is responsible for significant growth in the small claims industry. Another unintended consequence from Government policy.

    Their implementation of what was actually not a bad idea, on the face of it, was short sighted and in fact many of the Government's proposals were steered almost entirely at the behest of the insurer lobby. And again.

    So, the point is, however good the idea is (and I did agree in my original article that it is in theory), I don’t see it working out in practice that way if the Government implements it.

    Regarding the Ebay point, I understand your intention in referring to them in the report. I still believe the comparison is misconceived.

    It is truly a laudable success story that Ebay can resolve 60 million trading disagreements every year, but, as I said, just because such a system can resolve 60 million trading disagreements every year, does not mean that a similar system would be able to resolve large volumes of potentially complicated consumer and small business disputes, involving construction, vehicle claims, consumer protection issues, consumer credit issues, landlord and tenant disputes, employment issues (other than tribunal)…. The list goes on.

    To suggest otherwise, is analogous to arguing that a cohort of cataract removal surgeons are qualified to carry out all and any surgical procedures.

    As you have asked for suggestions, for cases up to £25,000, I think a hybrid of an online system and the ability to retain legal advice (and recover legal costs on successful conclusion) is necessary to meet this country’s obligation to rebuild access to justice.

    I mentioned the £25,000 point above. I do think that the adoption of the Government’s value classification of “low value claims” as £25,000 is ill-considered. As we both know, that has been set as the new “Fast Track” level for monetary claims, including injury. So for now, you can employ a solicitor to run your case and claim back their costs in addition from the defendant (subject to a maximum of a 25% deduction for a success fee) if you win. I don’t know if there were any personal injury practitioners on the consultation panel, but if there were, they would probably understand the point I am making.

    £25,000 in terms of an injury claim valuation, normally means someone who was not employed at the time of the accident, has suffered moderately serious (but not necessarily life changing) injuries, and has minimal other losses. Or alternatively, a claimant has suffered more minor injuries, with a period of lost earnings (or gratuitous care) claimed.

    The point is that they haven’t LOST £25,000.

    That figure compensates them for their injuries together with any associated losses, and whilst they may be out of pocket to the tune of several thousands of pounds in lost earnings, most people can get by. I speak from experience of dealing with these people for approaching 30 years.

    Someone who has LOST £25,000 in a consumer or business deal that has gone south, is much more seriously financially affected and could lose their business or suffer serious adverse financial consequences. To risk that sort of sum without professional legal advice, at the click of a mouse, is risking the same outcome that Lord Dyson was referring to here.

    I hope that point is now clear.

    My solution, as you ask, is to continue with the ODR plans, but lower the value - £10,000 max.

    A trial run at £5,000 would be my preferred option, but up to £10,000 would be more proportionate. £25,000 is not a proportionate cap to this process.

    For money claims of up to £25,000, people need to be able to employ a lawyer to do a proper job, and that takes time and money. Furthermore, the report talked about the risk of speculative claims, due to the easier process, as do you above. The retention of the right to claim legal costs from £10,000 to £25,000 in claim value, and exclusion of those claims from the process, would focus parties’ minds, and would in any event not encourage the sort of behaviour referred to in your report.

    If the Government’s true intention is access to justice, and not access to a process, I am sure they would agree.

    Dean
     
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    Dean, firstly I must thank you for your comments and helping to turn this thread into the most thought provoking blog that I have so far seen on this subject. I would be happy to share a paper from you, if you wish, with my colleagues on the Group.

    Let me clear up some possible misunderstandings. Nothing in the proposals will deter or prevent people from taking legal advice and being legally represented. For those who choose to be represented, then as the cost of time is the major element in a lawyers fee, speeding up the process can only help reduce those fees. The overall shortening of the length of a case from beginning to end will inevitably reduce the time charged in reviewing the file and in the number of letters/emails and telephone calls. The lower incidence of cases that end up in a physical court will avoid the cost of time in attending at, and waiting around in, a court building. For those who are not represented the processes will better empower them to represent themselves especially with the help of people like yourself.
    You suggest that the implementation will be undertaken by government and not by the CJC and that past experience indicates such would lead to disaster. I do not know how this will work out but what I can say is that the involvement of our Advisory Group does not end with this Report. We specifically recommend that we continue our work, with the setting up of a pilot scheme, to learn from such, and advise further. We specifically argue against government procuring a new standalone IT development. Our recommendation is that there are many technologies being used at present or under development and that consideration be given, much as the government's " Digital By Default" policy recommends and government's GCloud marketplace has implemented, to using such cloud based technologies, albeit adapted and configured. Our driver has been that, given the flexibility and variety of aids that technology can already provide, to reinvent the processes utilized in the civil Justice system so as to better benefit from them. The positive and welcòming response from HM Courts and Tribunal Service to our Report suggests our Group will be able to play a continuing role up to and following implementation.

    You suggest that the system may lead to poor quality of advice from lawyers having to push complex square peg cases into fast tracked round hole processes. On the contrary, we are not suggesting a 'one size fits all ' solution but a variety of processes that will be considered with the help of a human facilitator to triage in Tier 2 to ensure the proper process for the cases. I fully understand your concern but that is one outcome we are determined to avoid.
     
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    Thanks for your reply, Graham. I wish I had the time to write a paper on this! I am currently in transition from partnership to sole trader, building up my business. Thank you for the kind offer in any event.

    I'm not sure if my point about legal advice came across sufficiently clearly. I do understand that there is no prohibition on parties obtaining legal advice under the proposed system, but can they recover the costs if successful - even if only a fixed fee (such as with child damages approval advices)? If not, will most people really seek advice, regardless of the fact that there is no legal or regulatory inhibition on them doing so?

    For the answer to that question, we need only look at the small claims track, and the aforementioned growth in the numbers of LIPS.

    SCT claimants clearly don't DIY because they like it - they do so because if they pay for a lawyer, even if they win, they will not recover the costs. Some pay for assistance (hence my business) but most don't. £25,000 claims are however often more complex than lower value claims, for reasons which are obvious. The need for advice is greater.

    Unless some element of recoverability of legal costs - even a small fixed fee - is retained, people taking legal action for sums of up to £25,000 (who have already sustained serious financial loss) may well decide that they cannot afford legal help and so won't obtain it, despite the fact that for that sort of sum (£10,000 to £25,000), they really need independent advice. If they don't get it, many will inevitably make mistakes, and that only results in wasted time and resources, such as this , and this, and this, and this.

    Whilst under the ODR system, wasted time at court may be reduced, how much facilitator and mediation time will be wasted because a claimant in the absence of any advice has made a fundamental error?

    The errors won't disappear. They will just be moved.

    As I said in my blog, the Government's figure for an average wage is £23,000, approximately. How can it be wrong for people claiming up to a years' earnings to pay for and recover the cost of limited legal advice?

    Before you answer that question, remember that claimants can currently recover the court issue fee and hearing fee. At a claim value of £25,000 (15k to 50k bracket), that is £1,155.

    I cannot comprehend why a claimant who can recover court fees of over £1,000, cannot recover limited legal costs, if successful - say £300 to £500. This position goes from the unreasonable to the absurd, when you take into account the Government's recent announcement that, over £10,000, the issue fee will be increased to 5% of the value of the claim.

    So to be clear, for claims of value of £25,000, the claimant will have to pay £1,250 just to issue the claim, and will be able to recover from any unsuccessful defendant both that and the hearing fee (£545 currently), therefore £1,795, and yet will not be able to recover anything for the cost of legal advice, other than the extremely limited fixed costs in CPR 45.2, which have not increased significantly in over a decade.

    The prohibition on costs recovery for small claims makes sense. Claims under £10,000 tend to be more straight forward. Because higher value claims are normally more complex, a prohibition on limited costs recovery over £10,000 does not.

    I am not suggesting a change to sub £10,000 - I think the process, implemented properly (I rest on my reservations!) could work well. It could also work well from £10,000 to £25,000, but in that bracket, people should be allowed not only to obtain limited independent legal advice or assistance, but also to recover the cost of that assistance if they win, just as they can currently do with court fees that they pay.

    I don't see any difficulties with a system as described in the ODR report, but with the adjunct of a party being permitted to recover the limited cost of independent legal advice and assistance in the event of a win. Allowing a successful claimant to recover court fees of almost £2000, but not a basic advice/assistance cost of a few hundred pounds, appears perverse.
     
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    Dean, the instruction to our group was to research and advise on the potential for introducing online dispute resolution into the civil justice system. We were not asked to consider legal cost shifting. Further the use of the phrase'small claims' and £25,000 was not intended to uplift the current SCT jurisdictional limit and, thus, the limit to legal cost recovery. Our terms of reference were to investigate ODR for ' low value ( note not ' small claims' ) up to £25,000.

    I think your concerns about the limit to cost recovery in the SCT overlook the reason the SCT was set up in the first place which was to empower litigants to be able to pursue their cases without the necessity for legal representation. It does that in two ways, firstly by making the process less formal and, secondly, by protecting litigants from the risk of being ordered to pay the legal costs of their opponents should they lose. The ' unfairness' you may see in litigants not being able to recover their costs when they win is surely more than balanced out by the ' fairness' of being able to take on opponents with deep pockets to pay for lawyers without the risk of being ordered to pay the legal costs of their opponents if they lose. The mirror has two sides.

    Whilst I agree that some LIPs may be disadvantaged at present in not being able to afford legal advice to fully understand the strengths and weaknesses in their case our recommendations will significantly reduce the number of litigants who come to Her Majesty's Online Court suffering from such disadvantage because the Tier1 tools will provide that knowledge .

    Having said that I do agree with your general argument that maybe some limited degree of legal cost shifting may be appropriate , and indeed I think the development of small claims assistance through services like you operate is very welcome at filling the gap and should be expanded. I think that dynamic will benefit from the introduction of ODR in ways yet to be identified. Watch this space but, more importantly, please contribute to what develops within it.
     
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    As a footnote to the cost issue, one way to increase the chance of cost recovery in the SCT is for LIPs to press their opponents more vigorously before issuing in court to agree to mediation and, on rejection, press the court for a cost contribution order even if they eventually lose on the basis of an unreasonable refusal to mediate.
     
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