Diabetes Boot Camps

[Bill1954]

I am type 2 diabetic.
I have been type 2 for about 8 years that I know of and probably much longer than that given the rapid onset of complications such as retinopathy.
Like many other sufferers of the disease, I have been told for years to eat a low fat high carbohydrate diet and keep taking the meds which were slowly increasing in amount and variety.
Now I hear that this government is going to spend a fortune on "diabetic boot camps" with which they hope to reach out to up to 100000 pre diabetics and educate them.
Unfortunately they are going to trot out the same old advice again.
IT DOES NOT WORK
In January I had an email (one of many) from the British Diabetes Association in which they mentioned a new diet, The 8 week blood sugar diet by Dr Michael Mosely and based on the research by Professor Roy Taylor at Newcastle University.
This diet is very low carbohydrate and recommends putting full fat products back into your daily eating plan, the aim being to get your body to switch from burning carbs to burning fat. The daily allowance is just 800 calories (cue a mass rush for the exit door)
You would not believe how much food you can pack into 800 calories when it's the right kind of food.
There is a very popular support forum online at https://thebloodsugardiet.com/forums/
A quick look at them will show that everyone is losing weight and getting their sugar levels down WITHOUT FEELING HUNGRY that's just how it works.
Personally, in the first 7 weeks I have lost 23 pounds, my fasting blood sugar readings have gone down from 9.8 to under 7 and my daytime readings are within normal limits. I have dropped one of my medications totally and halved the dosage of the remaining one, the eventual plan is to be medication free.
Given the evidence that is piling up daily, this is the nutritional advice that the government should be handing out rather than the same old nonsense we have been hearing for ages. We need to teach our kids about eating the right way, if we can we can start putting an end to a disease that is becoming a world wide epidemic.
A petition has been set up asking the goverment to do this, I'll post the link after it has been published but, in the meantime, if there are any type 2 diabetics on this forum, I would highly recommend trying this, you will never regret it.

 

[paulears]

Diabetes is one of the few 'illnesses' that the Government have a hit on. Type 1 is in my family - and my mum is in her 80s, in pretty good health, and has been injecting twice daily since she was 7!

She objects when recent newly qualified doctors tell her to change her lifestyle and make alterations to a condition she copes with with few real issues, despite now being elderly. The people who develop type 2, she maintains have problems, simply because they want to continue doing their lifestyle and are not willing to do what is best. When it happened to her as a child, the advice back then was basic. Cut out sugar as an additive to drinks, and don't use it in your cooking. Dump food loaded with the stuff, and take a sensible outlook to fruit. Keep fit and healthy and that is that. Test your sugar, and learn to adjust what you consume to keep it under control. She's also been able to consistently adjust her insulin to cater for unexpected sugar input. She does it better than the doctors, but now she's old, she gets given rapidly changing, patronising and inconsistent advice - she must do this, she must do that, and she rejects it all. She carries on looking after herself. One doctor got cross with her. She told him she had had diabetes for three times the time he'd been alive!

The newly diagnosed type 2 people get flooded with advice, and not all of it fits. Lifestyle changes and the ability to say NO are simple to get used to. Mum thinks that even the BDA are now changing their advice far too quickly, using studies and case histories to back up newly discovered 'facts'.

It appears that many people who discovered they were diabetic were just eating the wrong things, and not really helping themselves.

Me, as somebody who is allergic to exercises, likes all the wrong foods, and is spreading around the middle should take it seriously, especially with 4 diabetics in the immediate family group, but twice now, relatives have become ill and gone into hospital with NON-diabetic issues only to have their diabetes treated as primary task, with what they went in for relegated to "when you're better" by the medical staff. I'm talking about a severe ear infection, that left mum permanently deaf in one ear, that they didn't start to treat, because her sugar was up! Diabetes has, in my mum's opinion (and therefore mine too) got a huge push in awareness simply because it costs - not because people are ill. My mum has the usual poor circulation in her feet, but it's not bad, and her feet are fine - yet she had to have an assessment of wether she needed to keep on having her feet looked at. The podiatrist simply ask her if her diabetes had got suddenly better. She said of course not, so the specialist ticked the box and said six months again then?

Maybe we're cynical, but if you get some diseases, you are going to have your life shortened and suffer limitations that make your life shit. Diabetics have to go on a sensible living regime. My mum gives to Macmillans, and has stopped giving to the BDA, because she says she'd rather give to people who are ill. She does not consider diabetes an illness. Those who have a bad time generally do not eat and exercise sensibly.

Sorry - but we really do believe the limited HNS resources are wasted on many diabetics who's rotten lifestyle caused it. Sugar taxes and all that stuff are a joke. Ban smoking and ban alcohol and the two big killers would go away. We could ban sugar too - but in itself it's not bad, it's just sugar misuse that is the problem. All the fuss with slimming pills - people don't want to put any effort in, just pop a pill and carry on with MacDonalds. Diabetics soon learn that making the food changes pretty well sorts them out.

 

[Ian J]

Sorry - but we really do believe the limited HNS resources are wasted on many diabetics who's rotten lifestyle caused it.

That's true. My sister in law is a nurse and a fat one at that. She was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes a few months ago but refuses to go on a diet as she knows her own body better than the doctor. If that is the sort of attitude from a supposed health professional then it isn't surprising that others don't take any notice.

Incidentally I also developed type 2 eight years ago but I don't consider myself to be over weight and I take reasonable care with what I eat but am not absolutely paranoid about it

 

[Cobby]

Love to see people trotting out the "I know better than doctors!" lines, especially when they put quotes around "facts" in a sarcastic manner.

And remember folks, what's most important is that you know what's better for you than doctors do, their medical training is a waste of time, what with them always changing their minds about their 'facts' as new information becomes available to them! Now if they said something and stuck with it, like "make sure to keep your humours in balance or you'll need a session with the leeches!" then I'd have much more confidence in them.

After all, my great-aunty is 80 years old and has smoked 60 a day for 70 of those years, so what do doctors know!

Stay well folks!

 

[Cobby]

If that is the sort of attitude from a supposed health professional then it isn't surprising that others don't take any notice.

Why is it surprising? Doctors and nurses smoke, nobody questions the fact that smoking is incredibly bad for them.

 

[Bill1954]

Your Aunty must have belonged to a very well off family if she could afford to smoke 60 a day at the age of 10

 

[Mr A P Davies]

I'm not diabetic, and by most measures, am very unlikely to become so.
I am however, asthmatic, and can relate entirely to the frustration with the so called health professionals.
They really do make my blood boil........

 

[Balanced HQ]

It's such a political hot topic that its unsurprising there is such a focus on it. GPs were financially incentivised some years for various conditions. COPD, Asthma, Diabetes and a long list all became cash generators for various triggers. There is no evidence that this has improved care according to a number of research papers. It's a mess and type 2 in the Newcastle study was compelling and was done some years ago. Makes sense to follow what works to reduce the levels and the diet did that across almost all subjects. Madness.

 

[garyk]

Look back to the 90s, food companies introduced 'low fat' variations of their products and what happened?

...Everyone got fatter!

Poor old Dr Atkins got a rid royal drubbing and guess what, he was actually on the money. 'Good' fat is essential in our diet, in fact for men it also aids in testosterone production (which when you are 40+ you need all the help you can get!)

As you have discovered @Bill1954 eating the right fat with carb restriction can help you to *lose weight*.

There are so many food myths because there is so much money to be made by the big food companies. Look at breakfast cereal, do you ever stop to wonder why its 'fortified'? Because it has zero nutritional value (with the exception of oats) so they have to add 'vitamins' to it.

 

[Matt1959]

I was diagnosed as pre type 2 diabetes and changed my diet immediately also took more exercise. Next blood test at the Docs. my sugar level had dropped right down. Makes me wonder why more people are not more onto self help?

 

[Ian J]

I was diagnosed as pre type 2 diabetes and changed my diet immediately also took more exercise. Next blood test at the Docs. my sugar level had dropped right down. Makes me wonder why more people are not more onto self help?

I think that it's part of the human nature. Many people are just slobs whilst others work on the mañana principle.

My wife is a nurse in a hospital and half of her patients are overweight diabetics yet even in hospital (for unrelated respiratory matters) they are trying to stuff their faces with biscuits, cakes and chocolate.

Wifey herself is not the svelte, trim figure that she once was and both of her sisters are obese and both have type 2 diabetes yet knowing that she is very likely to develop it herself her attempts at dieting are always half hearted but she will do it properly mañana.

 

[Bill1954]

I think the situation exists because so many people take their doctors at their word and the book says low fat high carbohydrate.
People tend not to question the doctors proclamations so we now have a diabetic society who have been brought up on the low fat and keep taking the meds regime. They all think it's the right way to go.
Thankfully, looking at the support forums, more and more GP's are open to this new way of eating.
There is a long way to go, but from this simple start, and if the publicity swells, this could revolutionise the way we eat.
The food producers, diet companies, and drug manufacturers won't like it but , hey ho.

 

[deniser]

I am type 2 diabetic.
I have been type 2 for about 8 years that I know of and probably much longer than that given the rapid onset of complications such as retinopathy.
Like many other sufferers of the disease, I have been told for years to eat a low fat high carbohydrate diet and keep taking the meds which were slowly increasing in amount and variety.
Now I hear that this government is going to spend a fortune on "diabetic boot camps" with which they hope to reach out to up to 100000 pre diabetics and educate them.
Unfortunately they are going to trot out the same old advice again.
IT DOES NOT WORK
In January I had an email (one of many) from the British Diabetes Association in which they mentioned a new diet, The 8 week blood sugar diet by Dr Michael Mosely and based on the research by Professor Roy Taylor at Newcastle University.
This diet is very low carbohydrate and recommends putting full fat products back into your daily eating plan, the aim being to get your body to switch from burning carbs to burning fat. The daily allowance is just 800 calories (cue a mass rush for the exit door)
You would not believe how much food you can pack into 800 calories when it's the right kind of food.
There is a very popular support forum online at https://thebloodsugardiet.com/forums/
A quick look at them will show that everyone is losing weight and getting their sugar levels down WITHOUT FEELING HUNGRY that's just how it works.
Personally, in the first 7 weeks I have lost 23 pounds, my fasting blood sugar readings have gone down from 9.8 to under 7 and my daytime readings are within normal limits. I have dropped one of my medications totally and halved the dosage of the remaining one, the eventual plan is to be medication free.
Given the evidence that is piling up daily, this is the nutritional advice that the government should be handing out rather than the same old nonsense we have been hearing for ages. We need to teach our kids about eating the right way, if we can we can start putting an end to a disease that is becoming a world wide epidemic.
A petition has been set up asking the goverment to do this, I'll post the link after it has been published but, in the meantime, if there are any type 2 diabetics on this forum, I would highly recommend trying this, you will never regret it.

That is fantastic news. I was reading about the research into this recently and it seems that it is working for everyone who tries it and that the diabetes can be reversed and stay that way even when resuming a normal (although not excessive) diet. I can't believe that anyone with diabetes and the potentially life threatening complications that can arise from it wouldn't give this diet a go.

 

[Matt1959]

I tell you whats an eyeopener - work out the sugar content of your daily intakes then convert that to bags of sugar. Work out how many bags of sugar you consume in one year and imagine those bags stacked up on the carpet in front of you at the same time knowing that that quantity passes through your body every 12 mths. In my case I was eating 36 2lb bags of sugar per year in my cups of tea alone!!! One can of pepsi per day, add another 14 bags of sugar a year add the approx the same amount for one mars bar a day. Makes you think...

 

[roydmoorian]

Your Aunty must have belonged to a very well off family if she could afford to smoke 60 a day at the age of 10

Woodys were cheap back then

 

[roydmoorian]

Sugar Tax all about revenue raising not much to do with health

• Does this mean that sugary drinks will be more expensive?

The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) has estimated it could add 18-24p to the price of a litre of fizzy drink if the full cost is passed on to the consumer. But a Treasury spokesman said: “We are hoping that producers do not pass on to consumers the costs. They can obviously reformulate their products, which many of them have done, and Robinson’s for example has removed added sugar from most of its drinks and Tesco has pledged a 5% reduction in sugar in its ranges.

If the cost of a litre of coke is not going to increase then where is the incentive to consume less ???

 

[Cobby]

I think the situation exists because so many people take their doctors at their word and the book says low fat high carbohydrate.
People tend not to question the doctors proclamations so we now have a diabetic society who have been brought up on the low fat and keep taking the meds regime. They all think it's the right way to go.
Thankfully, looking at the support forums, more and more GP's are open to this new way of eating.
There is a long way to go, but from this simple start, and if the publicity swells, this could revolutionise the way we eat.
The food producers, diet companies, and drug manufacturers won't like it but , hey ho.

This "don't listen to GP's they don't know what they're talking about" attitude is a sad symptom of the internet age and is responsible for measles outbreaks all over the developed world, and much more besides.

So what "book" are you referring to in your post? I've never been given any weird dietary advice by GP's; they always stick with "eat more fruit and veg, cut down on the snacks, sugar and salt." At this point that's pretty much society's default understanding of "a better diet" so what exactly are *you* referring to?

As an aside, I do like your little "the food producers and drug companies will hate you with this one great tip!" buzzfeed-clickbait nonsense, desperately trying to add validity to your opinion. It's funny.

 

[Cobby]

That is fantastic news. I was reading about the research into this recently and it seems that it is working for everyone who tries it and that the diabetes can be reversed and stay that way even when resuming a normal (although not excessive) diet. I can't believe that anyone with diabetes and the potentially life threatening complications that can arise from it wouldn't give this diet a go.

You cannot currently reverse diabetes. "Reversing" diabetes, in the sense you discuss is about managing it and slowing or halting its progress. It's hard to manage or "reverse" because diagnosis usually only occurs after the patient has had it for a while and a large portion of the pancreatic cells have already been damaged beyond repair.

The 'study' in these tabloid shock stories is a tiny one involving about a dozen people and its results, while interesting, only really point to the need for further research, they cannot in any real way be considered a definite conclusion or medical advice.

If the cost of a litre of coke is not going to increase then where is the incentive to consume less ???

It's incentivising producers to reduce the sugar in their products. It's probably a foolhardy move overall because producers are only interested in money, not their customers' health, so they will definitely pass the cost on and all that will happen is that poor people will have to look at the small amount of money they have and choose between their sugary drinks and vegetables and, well, we know how that will go.

 

[Bill1954]

Cobby please do one
There are hundreds of people worldwide on the support forums. They are all losing weight and getting low sugar levels simply by eating a low carbohydrate diet.
When you can show me your medical qualifications, you know the ones that allow you to make such authorative comments, then I may listen to your nonsense. Until then I will stick with what works for me and others (By the way, the mantra for diabetics for years has been eat low fat and just keep taking the meds)
The original study may have been a small one, the amount of people for whom this is working now is much much larger and swelling every day.
If anyone here should wish to sign the petition, it is online here,
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/125704

 

[Cobby]

Cobby please do one
There are hundreds of people worldwide on the support forums. They are all losing weight and getting low sugar levels simply by eating a low carbohydrate diet.
When you can show me your medical qualifications, you know the ones that allow you to make such authorative comments, then I may listen to your nonsense. Until then I will stick with what works for me and others (By the way, the mantra for diabetics for years has been eat low fat and just keep taking the meds)
The original study may have been a small one, the amount of people for whom this is working now is much much larger and swelling every day.

There are thousands of parents across the developed world, convinced that the reason their children don't have autism is because they chose not to get them vaccinated. Anecdotes are a good starting point to follow for investigation, but little else.

As for medical qualifications, show me yours first and I'll concede. Otherwise we're just internet folk doing our best to inform others. I certainly won't argue that being more aware of what we eat is hugely important, but I don't like to see new-age, anti-science ideas being put forward as established medical fact.

You've given a very strong "doctor's don't know anything" narrative to your post, and based it all on a small, isolated study so you can claim "SciEnCe!" Obviously you're entitled to keep doing what you think is best, but the translation is: "I know better than the entire medical profession." You stated again what the "mantra" was, yet still provided no evidence that it actually *is* standard medical advice, and it's certainly not advice I've ever encountered (there's an anecdote for ya! ).

Your defense of the study with anecdotes doesn't really change the fact that it's a small, anomalous study and that nobody is changing standard medical advice as a result, nor should they be.

 

[Bill1954]

I won't reply to you again after this as you don't seem to have the power of understanding the written word.
It is no longer a small study, thousands of folk all over the world are having success with it.
Doctors are not always right. I had one who always had a fag in his gob during consultations. Another told a friend she was alcoholic, when in reality, she was teetotal and was suffering from gallstones so dont push the doctor is always right stuff at me ! I never said the whole medical profession was wrong either, in fact there are now quite a few health professionals coming round to this way of thinking.
Mechanics who trained on Morris Oxfords wouldn't have a clue with a Porche 911. It's all down to new technology and training. the truth holds for everything including healthcare.
If we all stuck to your theories we would still be getting bled by leeches and having holes drilled in our skulls to cure headaches.
Parting shot, I am not a health professional, I have no qualifications.
I AM a diabetic and I know my disease a sight better than you or anyone else does

 

[Cobby]

I won't reply to you again after this as you don't seem to have the power of understanding the written word.
It is no longer a small study, thousands of folk all over the world are having success with it.

That is anecdotal. it is not research and it is not a study. It's apparently not me suffering the problem with the written word

Doctors are not always right. I had one who always had a fag in his gob during consultations. Another told a friend she was alcoholic, when in reality, she was teetotal and was suffering from gallstones so dont push the doctor is always right stuff at me !

I didn't say or even imply they were always right. Simply that your endless narrative of how they are always wrong and don't know anything is wholly unhelpful and a very poor attitude with which to try and infect others.

I never said the whole medical profession was wrong either, in fact there are now quite a few health professionals coming round to this way of thinking.

Here. Right here. You literally just said "only the doctors that agree with me are correct".

If we all stuck to your theories we would still be getting bled by leeches and having holes drilled in our skulls to cure headaches.

Yeah, not really though. "My theories" are agreement with established scientific fact and medical advice. So "my theories" are, let's call them 'current medicine', and yours are the opposite.

Children across the country with whooping cough. That's your anti-medicine attitude at work.

 

[Bill1954]

If I say black you're going to say white so I'll leave it for others to make their own minds up.

 

[Bill1954]

This probably won't be accepted as scientific proof either but boy did it make me happy.
I was at the docs yesterday for the results of the blood tests taken just 4 weeks into the diet.
I have been downgraded from diabetic to pre diabetic because of my HbA1c tests
My kidney function is vastly improved
Having stopped 2 of my medications and cut the other in half I now have the go ahead to stop the last med as soon as I feel comfortable with it.
BMI is still in the obese group but rapidly dropping with the weight
My eye appointment 2 weeks ago showed a marked improvement in the condition of the retinal blood vessels.
All I want is for all other diabetics to be made aware of how beneficial a low carbohydrate diet can be so they can make their own choices.
Please take the time to sign the petition online
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/125704

 

[Cobby]

This probably won't be accepted as scientific proof either but boy did it make me happy.
I was at the docs yesterday for the results of the blood tests taken just 4 weeks into the diet.
I have been downgraded from diabetic to pre diabetic because of my HbA1c tests
My kidney function is vastly improved
Having stopped 2 of my medications and cut the other in half I now have the go ahead to stop the last med as soon as I feel comfortable with it.
BMI is still in the obese group but rapidly dropping with the weight
My eye appointment 2 weeks ago showed a marked improvement in the condition of the retinal blood vessels.
All I want is for all other diabetics to be made aware of how beneficial a low carbohydrate diet can be so they can make their own choices.

Good for you, I'm genuinely pleased you're doing better. Standard medical advice should still never be altered by anecdotes or popular opinion. We have the scientific method for a reason.

 

[Bill1954]

And as I have said before, standard medical advice was once to use leeches to bleed everything out of you except headaches. They drilled holes in your skull for that.
Can't you just accept that sometimes medical advice is wrong ? Remember thalidomide ? or how about when I was a kid we were encouraged to drink milk (full fat was the only kind), eat butter and lots of eggs. that was all reversed in the 70's
Go further back and smoking was recommended to prevent winter chills and colds.
Medical advice evolves, we have to move with it, or perhaps you think that Dr Mosely and Professor Taylor aren't qualified enough.

 

[paulears]

The facts are pretty solid - but it's the conclusions that are drawn that worry me. Some Doctors are indeed experts in their field, but totally clueless in others. Doctors often make the worst patients. My own GP always gives me a slip with the medical terms on it so I can do the research myself, and admits that his real skills are simply memory - remembering when a set of conditions happened before that suggests a path of action. Body Mass Index is another bland coverall - you are obese. You are not. Look at them and it makes no sense. Cholesterol was another one - statins are good for everyone, apart from me, and since taking them I've had niggly joint problems I never had before - and worse still, my cholesterol is still sky high after a year of giving up my favourite foods and trying hard. In the end, my doc suggested stopping the statins, and going back to my diet and then retesting in six months as apart from the high cholesterol readings I'm fit and healthy. My readings stayed exactly the same. Apparently I have naturally high cholesterol, but my diets has no impact, so I'm back on the curries and other nice food. The only change is half a stone.

Diabetes sufferers are soft targets, that's all!

 

[Cobby]

And as I have said before, standard medical advice was once to use leeches to bleed everything out of you except headaches. They drilled holes in your skull for that.
Can't you just accept that sometimes medical advice is wrong ? Remember thalidomide ? or how about when I was a kid we were encouraged to drink milk (full fat was the only kind), eat butter and lots of eggs. that was all reversed in the 70's
Go further back and smoking was recommended to prevent winter chills and colds.
Medical advice evolves, we have to move with it, or perhaps you think that Dr Mosely and Professor Taylor aren't qualified enough.

Each example there has been discarded based upon the weight of convincing scientific/medical evidence. One small study is not convincing medical evidence.

You are arguing that science is wrong because it changes its position when new evidence is discovered. This is patently ridiculous as its exactly the reason why medicine has come as far as it has.

If the authors of that study want to change standard medical advice based upon their small piece of work, then they themselves should know they are unqualified. Hopefully they just immediately ploughed themselves into a much bigger and more rigourous study that *would* be grounds to update medical advice.

Until then, it's better than ear-candles and crystals, but only just.

 

[woodss]

@Cobby .

In reply to your thinly veiled autism comment above...

As someone who has a son who was perfectly fine before an MMR vaccine and has had bowel issues, seizures and delayed learning issues since, I'm quite happy in my decision to not vaccinate my subsequent child. If you think you're going to be able to convince me I'm wrong just because medical literature currently suggests I'm a whacko, take my advice and get some snacks by the computer. And a commode.

Be careful about what you believe without actually experiencing the issues yourself just because you think you're right. And that goes for the diabetes issue as well if you've not been diagnosed with type 2. It IS reversible - my dad is a changed man since he changed his diet and exercise regime (read: actually started exercising).

 

[woodss]

Actually I'd go so far to say that if you do not question medical advice then it is you who is part of the problem, especially from a GP. Funnily enough GP stands for "General Practitioner".

You know the phrase "jack of all trades, master of none"? Scary how many people entrust their physical and mental health into the care of these people.

I myself visited a doctor after experiencing panic attacks brought on by stress - the solution according to the GP? A prescription of Beta Blockers. Yes, screw with my heart, Doc, it's not like I only have one and it's important.

Instead of cured myself with rest, rehydration and a decent diet.

I'm sure he meant well ... but guess who it would have affected? Me. Therefore research is, to me, important.

 

[Mr A P Davies]

There is always someone who swears medical science and the medical system is perfect, and beyond question, online and in real life.
Until someone has repeatedly suffered at the hands of gross incompetence, vested interest, or simple indifference, then I doubt it's possible to explain that there are chronic problems with the medical system.
I would certainly be dead a long time ago if it wasn't for the doctors, and would certainly be dead or crippled if I'd listen to the 95% of nonsense that they spouted to me.
It's unfortunate that folks who are deeply fond of doctors, choose too focus upon the tiny weeny little bit of good they did, and ignore the huge amount of damage.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Bill you say you have it for 18 years . I would love to know more about your lifestyle from when you were younger and leading up to when you noticed you had developed this

I am OK by default Im the best part of 50 run at least 4 times a week for the last 35 years and eat well I only train because I enjoy it I have no health agenda but the bi product of the way I live means I dont suffer from such things , If I did not like training I would drink cider and eat pasties
So when they say you need to folow a diet I can understand if there is little incentive but lots of temptation
I am particularly sensitive to this issue as I lost my Dad before Christmas He had a heart bypass and diabetes along with Parkinson this made him forget to monitor himself properly in the last year
I dont think the NHS should be responsabe for all of this I think sufferers should take ownership for their conditions . Most important if you have family that care about you

 

[Bill1954]

Cobby are you a real troll or do you just help out when they're busy ?
"You are arguing that science is wrong because it changes its position when new evidence is discovered" is exactly the opposite of what I have been saying. I say science SHOULD change it's position BECAUSE new evidence has been discovered.
I have a headache.

 

[Bill1954]

Jeremy
I was ok through my teens and into the late 20's, trained, played rugby etc, then because of circumstances I got into taxi driving as a temporary measure, it lasted 25 years!
I'm convinced it was that sedentary lifestyle that caused the damage which went undetected until 8 years ago when we moved house ad the new doctors insisted on a full health check and that is where it was picked up. 2 years later I had retinopathy and I was told then that I must have had diabetes undetected for 10 years or so prior to diagnosos.
I agree that sufferers should take some ownership for their conditions but it would help if the correct information was out there and easy to locate.
It worries me that the government are going to contact 100000 pre type 2 diabetics and offer them the same nutritional information that has been proven over the years not to work.
There are literally hundreds of people, worldwide who are now following low carbohydrate diets and losing weight and stabilising blood sugars. We, on the support forums are simply trying to spread the word.

 

[Cobby]

Actually I'd go so far to say that if you do not question medical advice then it is you who is part of the problem, especially from a GP. Funnily enough GP stands for "General Practitioner".

You know the phrase "jack of all trades, master of none"? Scary how many people entrust their physical and mental health into the care of these people.

I myself visited a doctor after experiencing panic attacks brought on by stress - the solution according to the GP? A prescription of Beta Blockers. Yes, screw with my heart, Doc, it's not like I only have one and it's important.

Instead of cured myself with rest, rehydration and a decent diet.

I'm sure he meant well ... but guess who it would have affected? Me. Therefore research is, to me, important.

"Questioning" medical advice is not the same as "rejecting" or "ignoring" medical advice. Questioning your doctor and making sure you are both crystal clear in the understanding of your situation and suggested treatment is vital. One of the biggest problems people have with their GP is that they don't communicate enough with them, and don't ask enough questions to make sure they understand. GP's of course spend all day dealing with people who won't ask enough questions so lose track of how much they *should* be explaining. There is discussion within the NHS at the moment about providing better communications training for GP's to make sure they understand their patients and their patients understand them. There is always room for improvement.

Researching our conditions is a very important thing to do, and more people should do it. We would be able to discuss them in greater detail with our medical practitioners and help eliminate unrelated symptoms or problems. Knowing you have limits is also important - the internet has seen the rise of the 'anti-expert' movement and it has had a measurable negative effect on the health of the population, and should be resisted at every opportunity.

Also having an understanding of how our medical system works is important - not every doctor can be a specialist in every field and it's absurd to suggest otherwise. Having GP's that can identify most problems and refer you onward is absolutely the best arrangement because if we got to make our own decisions then thanks to Dr. Internet McGoogle, oncologists would be overrun.

Don't forget the reason you read stories about people getting better after ignoring their doctors is usually down to statistics - non-serious conditions work themselves out, people adjust their unhealthy lifestyles, etc. Doctors will also occasionally make a mistake or mis-diagnosis, but this is far less common. Remember, there are also plenty of people who ignore their doctors, think they know better and refuse to change their lifestyles - this 'other' group of people that don't campaign so vociferously and who you never hear from... they are quiet because they are dead. Harsh, but true.

But, back to the original point, dismissing professional medical advice is generally a bad idea. Changing medical practice based on a very small study and some internet anecdotes, or even just popular opinion is also a very bad idea.

 

[Cobby]

It worries me that the government are going to contact 100000 pre type 2 diabetics and offer them the same nutritional information that has been proven over the years not to work.

What is this advice and nutritional information that is given out as standard, and to which you are so opposed?

Please link to an NHS or other government medical site hosting this advice, and then explain specifically why it is incorrect.

 

[Bill1954]

Taken from here
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/diabetes-type2/Pages/Living-with.aspx

Healthy eating
Eating a healthy, balanced diet is very important if you have diabetes. However, you don't need to avoid certain food groups altogether.

As long as you eat regularly and make healthy choices, you can have a varied diet and enjoy a wide range of foods.

You can make adaptations when cooking meals, such as reducing the amount of fat, salt and sugar, and increasing the amount of fibre.

You don't need to completely exclude sugary and high fat foods from your diet, but they should be limited.

The important thing in managing diabetes through your diet is to eat regularly and include starchy carbohydrates, such as pasta, as well as plenty of fruit and vegetables. If your diet is well balanced, you should be able to achieve a good level of health and maintain a healthy weight.

Read more about healthy recipes. Further dietary advice and cooking tips are also available on the Diabetes UK website.

The latest research includes eating more fat and restricting simple carbohydrates and it is working. Telling a diabetic they don't need to restrict all sugary foods is bloody madness. Fruits contain fructose which is the only sugar which is processed directly by the pancreas and should be eaten only in small amounts. Need I go on ?

 

[Cobby]

@Cobby .

In reply to your thinly veiled autism comment above...

As someone who has a son who was perfectly fine before an MMR vaccine and has had bowel issues, seizures and delayed learning issues since, I'm quite happy in my decision to not vaccinate my subsequent child. If you think you're going to be able to convince me I'm wrong just because medical literature currently suggests I'm a whacko, take my advice and get some snacks by the computer. And a commode.

Well, obviously I'm sad to hear you've had family difficulties, my condolences and sympathies are yours. Genuinely.

What you have experienced is very sad, nobody wants their child to go through any kind of suffering, but you've made a link that simply doesn't exist. All sorts of scientists and doctors have done for more research on the topic than you or I will ever read. The tenuous link you've made is the same thing as born-again christians when they suffer a near-miss car accident and find Jesus; it is based entirely on emotion.

"Medical literature" doesn't suggest you're a whacko; rather the full and overwhelming weight of scientific and medical research suggests you are completely and utterly wrong. It doesn't make a judgement about your mental state, that's a different matter entirely. If 100 bridge engineers examined a bridge, and all 100 checked each others work to make sure it was sound, and then told you the bridge will collapse if you cross it, you wouldn't cross it. If 1 extra bridge engineer that has been removed from the profession for being a proven liar tells you the bridge is safe, then you still have the choice to cross the bridge. Sure, everyone else will judge you for your choice, not the bridge engineers. The rogue engineer has no evidence for his assessment, but...anyway, I'm stretching the metaphor.

Obviously it's your choice not to vaccinate your other child, and I'm fully aware that people with fervour such as yours will usually never be swayed (with rare exception), so I have no delusions about convincing you. But there are lots of other people reading these kinds of discussions, and I will always highlight ignorance when I see it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...f-her-children-come-down-with-whooping-cough/
Why do I bother? Well, partly, it's very personal to me, too - because there are so many misled parents that haven't vaccinated their kids, it's led to the resurgence of some quite horrible diseases, and I hope you - or more specifically your other child - is lucky enough to never catch any of them. Sadly, when you choose not to vaccinate, you are also making the decision for those who cannot, parents with children who are immuno-compromised (from cancer treatment or AI disorders) and who must rely on the herd-immunity we offer as a society. You are making a choice for your child that could see them suffer and potentially die from completely preventable conditions, or, even worse, other children may catch it and suffer as a result of your decision - that's your choice potentially killing other people's children. Think about that.

Now, I understand its an inflammatory topic, and although I'm talking with you, I'm not being personal as it applies to all those that fall for the anti-vaccination movement. It's a discussion done to death all over the internet, so let's perhaps leave it there. You've said your piece, I've said mine, all the scientific research is available for people to read, people can make up their own minds and hopefully make the right choice, but it would be irresponsible of me not to have countered your position at all.

But it still comes back to the original point. Medical advice is and should be based on convincing and thorough medical research. Not small studies, not internet anecdotes, not popular opinion and not emotion-led anti-science movements.

 

[Cobby]

The latest research includes eating more fat and restricting simple carbohydrates and it is working. Telling a diabetic they don't need to restrict all sugary foods is bloody madness. Fruits contain fructose which is the only sugar which is processed directly by the pancreas and should be eaten only in small amounts. Need I go on ?

It says "healthy and balanced" and talks of restraint. It does not advocate over-consumption of sugars or carbohydrates.

It is also general advice, and patients will find they get more specific advice relating to the severity of their condition from their doctor. None of this seems to be the "demon" advice on this issue you have been suggesting it is.

I look forward to seeing that study elaborated upon though, and will be happy to return here and support your position should there be enough evidence to change standard medical practice on the topic in line with your beliefs.

 

[Bill1954]

Wow, are our paths merging ?
"The important thing in managing diabetes through your diet is to eat regularly and include starchy carbohydrates, such as pasta"
Sorry but as far as I'm concerned any consumption of sugar or simple carbohydrates is over consuption for people in my position.
"healthy and balanced" is just not good enough, people need to be shown what is healthy and balanced. Can you truly say you could pick up a commercial weight loss meal and it would be healthy and balanced. It would if you believe the low fat mantra Ever wonder why weight loss firms have such high repeat customer figures? Please go take a look at this thread to see what ordinary people are saying
https://thebloodsugardiet.com/forums/topic/over-the-8-week-line-and-after/