Patio Heaters or Christmas lights?

DotNetWebs · Jan 7, 2008

I was having one of those strange debates in the pub the other night. I mentioned that I was thinking of getting a patio heater for occasional use when I have garden parties / BBQs etc. I was criticised for this on the basis that patio heaters are extremely un-environmentally friendly and that many people think they should be banned etc.

The odd thing was that some of the anti-patio heater people have over-the-top exterior Christmas Lights burning for the whole of December. We tend to see more and more excessive exterior Christmas lights on houses. The trend around here if for entire streets to join forces and try and outdo rival streets.

So my question is: Which seasonal product do you condiser the worse offender Patio Heaters or Christmas lights?

MH1 · Jan 7, 2008

Can't help on the enviromental issue but the patio heaters were a good earner this year, halogen not gas

So xmas lights for me.

Dawg · Jan 7, 2008

It's a bit of a "do you still beat your wife" type question. Using either will get you cold dark looks and a clucking from henvironmentalists.
The heater has a function over and above mere decoration, which should be in it's favour.

DotNetWebs · Jan 7, 2008

Dawg said:
...The heater has a function over and above mere decoration, which should be in it's favour.

I agree. This is the argument I was making to my house-adorning friends.

I would also argue that, contrary to the environmentalists' arguments, a patio heater is relatively efficient compared to the alternate method of keeping people warn outside. Ever since humans first discovered fire people have made bonfires to keep them warm. I have been to many a party where a bonfire or campfire has been lit. I have lit many fires myself. The problem with bonfires [from an efficiency point of view] is that they take a long time to get going and tend to burn for hours (or even days) after they have ceased to be used by the people that lit them. Also the vast majority of heat from them is radiated straight up into the atmosphere. Patio heaters on the other hand can be controlled to only use energy when it is required. They also have a hood that radiates the heat in a more efficient pattern.

I believe at least one major retail chain has given in to pressure and stopped selling patio heaters. I personally think they are less of an environmental 'villain' than excessive exterior Christmas lights.

Anyway, like I said, it was just one of those odd pub 'debates' that occurs after a few pints!

Regards

Dotty

Pelenna · Jan 7, 2008

Not sure on the whole patio heater/christmas lights debate, but surely you can't compare a bonfire to a patio heater - bonfires usually burn wood, which is carbon neutral (or so I'm told, open to correction!), and which is lying around anyway. At least the bonfires we have do

Jan 7, 2008

Dawg said:
It's a bit of a "do you still beat your wife" type question. Using either will get you cold dark looks and a clucking from henvironmentalists.
The heater has a function over and above mere decoration, which should be in it's favour.

would that be global warming.?

Earl

LisaHoughton · Jan 7, 2008

We have a chiminea ... it's brilliant!

DotNetWebs · Jan 7, 2008

Pelenna said:
Not sure on the whole patio heater/christmas lights debate, but surely you can't compare a bonfire to a patio heater - bonfires usually burn wood, which is carbon neutral (or so I'm told, open to correction!), and which is lying around anyway. At least the bonfires we have do

That's a good point.

Wood from sustainable sources is carbon neutral but what if you burn some old furniture? The carbon you are releasing could otherwise have been locked up for hundreds of years. Is it better to release a greater amount of CO2 from this wood than you would release from the burning of a limited amount of gas?

Regards

Dotty

Pelenna · Jan 7, 2008

Hmmm, also a dang good point. We live in a forestry so if we do have bonfires it tends to be using fallen wood from the trees around us. I just couldn't bring myself to have a patio heater though (I'm too much of a skinflint if nothing else!) - we just go inside when it gets cold!

Dawg · Jan 7, 2008

I must remember to ask the people who smoke outside a local pub, warmed by 3 patio heaters, (on a seafront), whether their cigarettes are carbon neutral.

(This is true, by the way. Walking my dogs at night I often stroll past this pub, 3 burning patio heaters, maybe, maybe one smoker, and an exhilarating sea breeze redistributing the heat most efficiently. Is this the modern equivalent of lighting your cigar with a £20 note? Even a grumpy, cynical ole Dawg thinks this is a golden FFS)

No Christmas lights tho'

Pelenna · Jan 7, 2008

Cor, all we get at the local is a tin roof next to the kitchen extract fan!

maruby · Jan 8, 2008

I think peeps are being encouraged to switch to a chiminea these days?
Thanks for this thread - I've just been transported back to Paris, drinking wine outside a cafe under a patio heater....

AdamJ · Jan 9, 2008

Patio heaters are marvellous. Buy a Toyota Pious then go and sit in the garden in the middle of winter under a big gas burner. Magic.

We had a big patio heater - only two problems. One, it burned the top of my head everytime I sat under it. And two, it couldn't cope with Snowdonia winds and snapped in two. Back to the chimnea again but not as convenient for a quick evening coffee in the garden on a brisk cold day.

Dawg · Jan 9, 2008

Had to give the wife one of those Pious cars after she gave me a Hummer.

flck72 · Jan 13, 2008

Yes some people go overboard with the ole Christmas lights but nothing like the National Lampoons Christmas Vacation yet. Don't get me wrong I am trying pretty darn hard to be environmentally friendly in business, home and garden. Patio heaters was tempted a long time ago until I realised this was a bad green decision, although if I was outside on a cold night at someones place with a patio heater, i would huddle under it.

Jenni384 · Jan 23, 2008

I can't really decide between the two.
I think patio heaters are a big waste of energy, and can't see me ever buying one.
I also think extravagant xmas lights are not only a waste but look awful! A few tasteful ones are fine but some houses I see would make me laugh if it wasn't for the shocking waste of electricity. But that's just my opinion

Dawg, I almost laughed at your post, if it wasn't for the.... [see above]

I'm sure I read that little things like electricity usage pale in comparison to taking a holistic approach to the environmental issues which would get down to the nitty gritty of the food we eat and the clothes we wear. Trouble is most people, myself included, find it difficult to make those kind of huge adjustments. *ponders*

Dawg · Jan 23, 2008

I also think extravagant xmas lights are not only a waste but look awful! ...... But that's just my opinion

Ahh! The Taste and Safety people have a branch in Marlborough....?

DotNetWebs · Jan 31, 2008

It seem patio heaters are to banned by the EU:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article3279948.ece

They seem like an easy target to me. According to experts quoted in this article, leaving TVs on standby wastes 5 times as much energy as patio heaters (with normal usage patterns).

I would love to see the same experts make a comparison with some of the over-the-top Christmas light displays.

Regards

Dotty

SillyJokes · Jan 31, 2008

DotNetWebs said:
It seem patio heaters are to banned by the EU:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article3279948.ece

They seem like an easy target to me. According to experts quoted in this article, leaving TVs on standby wastes 5 times as much energy as patio heaters (with normal usage patterns).

I would love to see the same experts make a comparison with some of the over-the-top Christmas light displays.

Regards

Dotty

Easy target they may be but lets nip them in the bud before they get out of hand. It's ridiculous to heat a patio - the bodies underneath would start to smell again.

OTT Christmas lights - I'm so glad I don't live in a street with these. Trashy, hideous, greedy commercialisation. Bah Humbug. Two lumps of coal is more than enough Christmas Cheer.

But, yes, you are right about goods on standby. We should ban both these things AND turn off our TVs. Is it so very hard to do?

Jan 31, 2008

Dawg said:
Had to give the wife one of those Pious cars after she gave me a Hummer.

yep I got a pious wife and she's a bit of a Hummer.:|

Earl

Jan 31, 2008

xmas light maybe 20 watts

patio heater 3,000 watts Plus

no brainer for us Einstein's

Earl

abovezero · Feb 6, 2008

sirearl said:
xmas light maybe 20 watts

patio heater 3,000 watts Plus

no brainer for us Einstein's

Earl

It is not easy to work this one out like that I think. I guess a lot more people have Christmas lights than patio heaters, and so the total energy used may not be in the ratio 3000:20 as you suggest.

When I was a kid most people had one string of lights around the branches of their Christmas tree, now ridiculous numbers over people cover the front of their houses in coloured lights - a bit more than 20 Watts worth I should think. but how do you stop people being so wasteful and environmentally unfriendly?

And as for patio heaters, well they are going to give you an enormous carbon footprint.

jessica 15 · Jul 26, 2012

In my opinion always go with "Christmas lights"

Talay · Jul 26, 2012

SillyJokes said:
.. But, yes, you are right about goods on standby. We should ban both these things AND turn off our TVs. Is it so very hard to do?

Does it matter ?

My huge plasma (http://www.lg.com/uk/tvs/lg-50PK990-plasma-tv) eats 181w when on but it keeps the room warm in winter but chews through only 0.2w when idle. So if it is on standby for 16 hours a day, half of which are on Econ 7, then it uses 3.2w which would take 312 days to reach 1kw, for which I pay an average price of 8p.

So essentially, leaving my tv on costs me 10p a year.

I do leave the computers on 24/7/365 though which I do know will cost me but that is perhaps 8 hours a day operational and 16 hours a day sleeping (virtually nil use) so that is about 250w*8=2kw a day or £0.22

SillyJokes · Jul 27, 2012

Talay said:
Does it matter ?

My huge plasma (http://www.lg.com/uk/tvs/lg-50PK990-plasma-tv) eats 181w when on but it keeps the room warm in winter but chews through only 0.2w when idle. So if it is on standby for 16 hours a day, half of which are on Econ 7, then it uses 3.2w which would take 312 days to reach 1kw, for which I pay an average price of 8p.

So essentially, leaving my tv on costs me 10p a year.

I do leave the computers on 24/7/365 though which I do know will cost me but that is perhaps 8 hours a day operational and 16 hours a day sleeping (virtually nil use) so that is about 250w*8=2kw a day or £0.22

Have you actually checked this for yourself? a lot of appliances use far more on standby than they admit to.

Rhyl Lightworks · Jul 27, 2012

LED Christmas lights use so little electricity that the cost (even if left on 24/7 for a whole month) is very little. The older incandescant Christmas lights use rather more but still very little electricity. Electrically operated patio heaters use a terrific amount of electricty and I imagine gas ones too are pretty expensive and very irresponsible.

A comparison of the cost of each of the electrical ones is:
LED lights using 2W for 10 hours a day for 30 days @ 12p a unit costs about £0.07
Incandescant Christmas lights at 20W for 10 hours a day for 30 days @ 12p a unit costs about £0.70
A patio heater of 2.5kW (2500W) for 3 hrs. for 4 days @ 12 p a unit costs about £3.60

Barrie

DotNetWebs · Jul 28, 2012

Rhyl Lightworks said:
....I imagine gas ones too are pretty expensive and very irresponsible...

Who are you calling irresponsible?

If you read the start of this [4 1/2 year old] thread you will see I was talking about over-the-top exterior Christmas Lights

i.e this sort of thing:

At the time I made the original post it was not uncommon to see WHOLE STREETS adorned like this!

Funnily enough now the credit crunch and economic downturn has been with us for a few years sites like this are far less common.

So which is more irresponsible? leaving your house lit like this from the middle of November until 12th night or running a GAS patio heater for a couple of hours while you have a barbecue? (the heater probably doesn't use much more heat than the BBQ itself).

Regards

Dotty

Rhyl Lightworks · Jul 28, 2012

The gas patio heater by some way.

Barrie

DotNetWebs · Jul 28, 2012

Rhyl Lightworks said:
The gas patio heater by some way.

Barrie

I don't think so.

Here is an electrician with an 'OTT' house who boasts his display draws 50 amps when switched on.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Blackpool-illuminations-entranced-child.html

His lighting is drawing the equivalent power of a gas patio heater except (rather than running for just two hours) his lights are on many hours a day from September!

The average 'OTT' house like that around here probably uses less power but many of them often join together to see how get can the best 'street' display.

Regards

Dotty

Rhyl Lightworks · Jul 28, 2012

I don't see anywhere where it says he draws 50A, and even if it did I would not believe the Daily Mail. 50A = about 12.5kW enough to fry most places. I also disapprove of extravagent lighting displays, but heating takes far more power than lighting, especially if LED bulbs are used.

Barrie

DotNetWebs · Jul 28, 2012

Rhyl Lightworks said:
...I don't see anywhere where it says he draws 50A...

The article says:

with the displays all switched off we only use about five amps but this goes up to about fifty when it's all on

But even if he was out by an order of magnitude and he was only drawing 5 amps, using your average of 10 hour running time a day, it would only take about 2 days running before he had used the equivalent energy of a 12.5kW patio heater running for 2 hours.

Extrapolate that out to a typical Christmas light 'season' of 6 weeks or so and the lights are using more than 20 times the energy of the patio heater session.

I take your point about low-power LEDs etc but these light fanatics are always looking for the 'next best thing' and power consumption will not factor into their buying decisions.

They just want the biggest and brightest in the maximum quantities.

Regards

Dotty

loubycee · Jul 28, 2012

what about energy efficient fire bowls, chimeneas etc that don't add to the gas/elec fuel bill?

Just a thought

Billmccallum · Apr 25, 2014

Oh dear Alex !!!

Thread started in 2008, kicked up again in 2012 and you fall into it now.... lolz

JonnyMP · Dec 7, 2014

For an enclosed area, a heater is always a good idea and never a waste of money for electricity usage and no more of an environmental hazard than anything else. But, for heating an open area (such as under the stars), it seems to be a waste of money, though maybe they are effective. I have never used one before. As for what you said about Christmas lights, I would consider those to be a big waste of electricity, if done to excess.

Chris Ashdown · Dec 8, 2014

But now most people have Solar Panels the electricity is free (quote from salesman) so whats wrong with Patio heaters using this free electricity and for Christmas lights using the solar on the moon instead of the sun

sirearl · Dec 8, 2014

Chris Ashdown said:
But now most people have Solar Panels the electricity is free (quote from salesman) so whats wrong with Patio heaters using this free electricity and for Christmas lights using the solar on the moon instead of the sun

To dare half a million homes have solar panels and far from being free the feed-in tariff makes sure that everyone who does not have solar panels subsidies those that do.

For a country that has so little sunshine solar panels are a very inefficient and expensive means of generating electricity.IMHO

Jeff FV · Dec 8, 2014

sirearl said:
To dare half a million homes have solar panels and far from being free the feed-in tariff makes sure that everyone who does not have solar panels subsidies those that do.

For a country that has so little sunshine solar panels are a very inefficient and expensive means of generating electricity.IMHO

Let's hope Santa brings you a sarcasm detector for Christmas.

Nuno · Dec 8, 2014

Why sarcastic? Isn't he broadly correct*? Solar power relies on subsidy and that subsidy is paid by all energy consumers; it is about 9% of energy bills according to the government.
This might change with the next generation of panels but a lot of people are stuck with what they have now, which are relatively inefficient.

*Don't hear me say that a lot, do you?

Jeff FV · Dec 8, 2014

Nuno said:
Why sarcastic? Isn't he broadly correct*? Solar power relies on subsidy and that subsidy is paid by all energy consumers; it is about 9% of energy bills according to the government.
This might change with the next generation of panels but a lot of people are stuck with what they have now, which are relatively inefficient.

*Don't hear me say that a lot, do you?

He was/is broadly correct (Christmas must be coming: it's turning into into a Sir Earl love in).

However, my interpretation was that the post above his, from Chris Ashdown, to which he was replying, was delivered tongue firmly in cheek which he (Sir E) responded to as if it was a serious post.

Patio Heaters or Christmas lights?

DotNetWebs

MH1

Dawg

DotNetWebs

Pelenna

DotNetWebs

Pelenna

Dawg

Pelenna

maruby

Dawg

flck72

Dawg

DotNetWebs

Rhyl Lightworks

DotNetWebs

Rhyl Lightworks

DotNetWebs

Rhyl Lightworks

DotNetWebs

Billmccallum

sirearl

Similar threads