Would anyone like a sensible discussion about low pay?
- Thread starter UKSBD
- Start date
If a job can pay say £13 an hour, and it’s that or there is no job, what would you like to see happen?
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I would like the company to either:
1) Pay less dividend and pay the employee more
2) Raise prices so they can make enough profit to pay their employees a decent wage
If they can't afford to employ people, then don't employ them. If they go out of business without employees, let them. There are others who will fill the niche, and probably do a better job without asking for a handout. Simples.
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I never understood the whole vine ripened thing.
Does it matter if they turned ripe on a shelf or on a vine? Literally what difference does it make? I am no tomato connoisseur so it is wasted on me.
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Please read the thread YOU said
With increased turnover, usually - but not always - comes greater profit, prosperity and longevity.
So, to sum up, the better a company does, the better its employees do.
Please giove examples of what you said the better its employees do. Because you have immediately contradicted yourself.
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Well, the idea of creating better paid jobs and increasing the pay of the lowest is the right one - but giving multinationals tax breaks ain't the way to do it.
And pumping more money into supporting the house market isn't going to improve security for the lowest paid either.
I've heard about "affordable housing" for years. Doesn't seem to be happening though. Here's an idea. Slap a whacking great tax on houses let through AirBnB, then use the money to build social housing.
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Presently, the House-Building Industry (Private and Social) in England and Wales is in crisis - Scotland to a lesser extent. The MSN is choosing NOT to report it - Being more concerned with resultant 'House Prices!' - Rather like 'Brexit' (The love that dare not speak its name) . . . "If we don't talk about it, the problem might go away!"
Most, if not all of this catastrophe can be levelled at Gove, together with a few other 'Pubescent Ministers!' He promised a 'Reform' of the Planning System which resulted in a 'Custerfook!' Gove's 'Cunning Plan' was not too far removed from further 'Whacking Great Taxes' on House-Builders! (One of the biggest contributors to Tory Party Funds). Unfortunately, there was no 'Plan B!' - Apart from using 'AirBnB' as a solution for Social Housing!
Now that he is back in GOVErnment he is literally 'Rearranging the Deckchairs!' . . . But, never mind, the 'Come-Back Kid' (Peace Be Upon Him) will soon be back to solve it all!
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It reminds of what a local farmer once told me about eggs. “Same eggs as the cheap ones, make sure they have some ‘Chicken Sh1t’ on them, call them ‘Organic’ and you charge twice as much!”
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Ok that’s great.
So you need to have a threshold.
Some months, our employees earn more than us. Other months, they don’t.
What should I do?
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The problem is global. We’ve exported our manufacturing to cheaper countries under the guise of free trade and with that we’ve exported the ability to have a balanced economy that pays for itself. Sure, it’s been great the last thirty years as people felt artificially rich because a chinaman would make them whatever they wanted for a bowl of rice. But that party is now over. The question is, what comes next?
Interestingly, this was all foretold with compelling accuracy back in early nineties against the backdrop of the GATT talks etc.
Interestingly, this was all foretold with compelling accuracy back in early nineties against the backdrop of the GATT talks etc.
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So right and surprise, surprise instead of a bowl of rice they now want to own their own homes and drive nice cars. A lot of people are suddenly finding sourcing from the likes of China not as cheap as it once was, added to this the increased shipping cost etc its making bringing many items to market way more expensive than it used to be. Hopefully the UK might start to take on more home grown manufacturing.
And on that note my advice would be to any UK manufacture make yourself approachable in the past trying to source for an example a good engineering company was a nightmare and if you did find one the quoted lead times were ridiculous. And yet speak to someone in Chine and within 48 hours you had a bloody sample sitting at your front door.
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I’ll keep paying them the same, regardless.
My point is, many small businesses have times when the work rolls in, and times when the work doesn’t.
It’s difficult sometimes, juggling priorities, trying our best to keep everyone busy and happy. Luckily, in our industry (semi-skilled) the going rate is quite a bit higher than the ‘living wage’, but we are providing employment for five people, and all the responsibilities that go with it.
I think people forget that, when they talk about unfairness to employees.
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No, not at all. I like the debate.
I still say, if you want to work hard, crack on and do something about your lot, most people in most cases, could do so. Whether employed by a large or small company.
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Employees often buy shares in a company, like John Lewis, Marks and Spencer and such. Also, they give many years (in some cases) of hard work towards the company being a success.
In companies I have worked for some of the Directors who earned £100,000s were totally useless at decision making and struggled with the basics of business writing, they were reliant on the 'underlings' to do the job for them (in essence they had position and were good a threatening and shouting).
The underlings putting in the hard graft to keep the companies profits rolling in deserve a decent living wage, paid for by that company if the company can afford it.
Shareholder companies are obliged to give maximum shareholder profits and therefore will not raise the wage of the lower staff unless the Government dictate it so - so in that scenario the UC system fails, because it's paying towards the high profits of major companies who could afford to pay more. Currently, it appears to be in bed with them to do that. UC have steered some of its recipients to acquire minimum hour work contracts at places like Tesco. These people then stick on UC (for all the reason previously mentioned).
As @japancool says, it's a go nowhere situation which has no end of peoples reliance on state intervention. It has become the norm to be on UC and the belief has become that they have a right to family life and as many children as they please paid for by UC, but this shouldn't really be the case. My mother would have liked 15 children (as her mother had) but she could only afford 3, so she had the 3 she could afford to feed and clothe.
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not read this for a few days so here is a consolidated reply.
re processed food, totally agree re buying decent food cheap and freezing (when you can afford a freezer) ignoring the green label end of day knock downs (which my freezer is stocked with) currently lidl will do you 21 day aged British medallion steaks at £10.82/kg and 30 day aged British sirloin steaks at £16.24
The problem with the housing industry in Britain is one of distribution not production.
I could dig out the figures again but look at average household sizes now compared to 40 years ago. The baby boomers are hanging on to their big houses when their parents used to sell up/share with children or die (sorry to be brutal), more split families with children having a bedroom at mums and dads whilst we used to live 3 to a room (ask your children/grandchildren how many people they know who share a bedroom) - we do not actually need a vast number more houses we need more efficient use of the stock we have.
Policies that encourage people to see property as a no lose investment or an easy pension (via buy to let) and offer free capital (via stamp duty holidays and help to buy) exasperate the issue rather than alleviate it.
Best thing that could happen to this country would be a huge quick sharp housing bubble crash of >50% (maybe even 75%), reset it all and start again, a long stagnation will help no one
re processed food, totally agree re buying decent food cheap and freezing (when you can afford a freezer) ignoring the green label end of day knock downs (which my freezer is stocked with) currently lidl will do you 21 day aged British medallion steaks at £10.82/kg and 30 day aged British sirloin steaks at £16.24
The problem with the housing industry in Britain is one of distribution not production.
I could dig out the figures again but look at average household sizes now compared to 40 years ago. The baby boomers are hanging on to their big houses when their parents used to sell up/share with children or die (sorry to be brutal), more split families with children having a bedroom at mums and dads whilst we used to live 3 to a room (ask your children/grandchildren how many people they know who share a bedroom) - we do not actually need a vast number more houses we need more efficient use of the stock we have.
Policies that encourage people to see property as a no lose investment or an easy pension (via buy to let) and offer free capital (via stamp duty holidays and help to buy) exasperate the issue rather than alleviate it.
Best thing that could happen to this country would be a huge quick sharp housing bubble crash of >50% (maybe even 75%), reset it all and start again, a long stagnation will help no one
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Yes, but it also needs a reset of mindset, so that houses aren't seen as an investment, but as somewhere to live.
This article from the Japan Times is interesting:
Property markets work better when the line doesn’t always go up
Japan's housing sector has been flat for years. But if dwellings are plentiful and attainable, why should that be a bad thing?
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I am of the thinking it will take a reset like that to jolt people out of the current mindsetYes, but it also needs a reset of mindset, so that houses aren't seen as an investment, but as somewhere to live.
This article from the Japan Times is interesting:
Property markets work better when the line doesn’t always go up
Japan's housing sector has been flat for years. But if dwellings are plentiful and attainable, why should that be a bad thing?www.japantimes.co.jp
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Forgive me, I'm struggling to understand how a huge reset would benefit the masses in the long run?
I've heard people say this a lot but never really understood what the long-term positives are compared to the short to medium term destruction it would create.
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Rents become cheaper, new buyers find it easier to purchase homes, workforce becomes more mobile, the banking system becomes more resilient, consumer debt burden is lower, smaller mortgages mean smaller repayments, people have more disposable income thus boosting the economy. That's for starters.
As for short-medium term destruction - it's only a problem for consumers if they bought their houses as investments, rather than homes. It's more of a problem for mortgage providers but that's not insurmountable.
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While I agree with that, you are ignoring the temporary problem that will force people to stay in homes because of negative equity. I remember the problems that caused years ago. That problem is not insurmountable, if there is a sensible policy of debt relief. But it will upset the mortgage lenders and the BTL landlords.
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Mortgage companies might be an issue because of the risks to the financial system, but BTL landlords, meh.
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This totally
I remember being told in the mid 90's just as we came out of people being in negative equity that I ought to do everything i could to buy as big a place as i could with as much debt as i could get as "long term property only ever goes up"
That is what led to self certification mortgages, endowment mortgages and now vast earning multipliers.
Every time you move you pay a % of the value to the govt - there is nowhere around me in the 0% threshold and most houses would be below £925k so 5%
The more houses go up and the more you move the larger "tax" on owning a house you pay - quite apart from the costs of solicitors, surveys, estate agents (if you don't avoid them) and removal.
If people bought a house lived in it, moved as and when they needed to just thinking about it's utility to them and any change in asset value was just a sideshow then the labour market would be far better.
Look at the required income (as in what is needed to break even each month) of a couple in their early 50's who bought in the 90's compared to a couple in their 20's renting and trying to buy now - it is radically different and that is bad for an efficient economy
Our outgoings as a couple in a 5 bed house supporting a child at uni plus 1 at secondary school are similar to those of my single 22 yo son renting a shared maisonette with other
My outgoings even
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Unfortunately you will see the effects on demonising BTL landlords shortly, large rent increases during a cost of living crisis, average rents have risen 10-12%, in some areas up to 40%. There is no sign of a slow down. If a tenant refuses to pay it can take over a year in the courts to get them out, with little chance of any recovery of lost rent and refurbishment costs. A main Labour MP has even publicly called paying rent as “optional“.
I have no BTL‘s personally, but those that do are predominantly average normal people, rightly trying to provide for themselves and their families. They are not the enemy, they are not the reason behind large rent increases.
What company on the forum in any other industry would run at a loss? You would be called stupid, not to at least cover your costs. The problems stems from several major problems in the UK, a 15% reduction of landlords due to being taxed on turnover, not profits, so potentially owing tax when you have made a loss. Want fewer BTL’s? You have got fewer, but now higher rents.
New legislation threatening rent controls, guess what, those that were helping tenants by not increasing rents are now forced to do so, just in case they cannot later.
New environmental requirements, meaning huge swathes of the UK housing stock will no longer be able to be rented, possibly. Of course, this Government like others changes policies several times a week, fancy having to spend £10-30k per house but not charge any more rent? Of course you would.
However, the number 1 problem in the UK regarding housing, there are not enough new houses being built, more people are living in smaller families or on their own, plus we have an extra 5-7 million people arrived in the last 10/20 years.
The whole of the West seems to be caught up in this instant gratification lifestyle. Want a house? Work for it, work two jobs, do overtime, do side hussles. It’s what everyone else has had to do, it won’t change until more houses force the prices down, and a change in the Gov policy about keeping the housing market going at any cost.
Alternatively, sit at home, watch TikTok and Netflix, go out with your mates, act like you are wealthy when you are broke, and moan about house prices.
The UK is in a right mess, housing included.
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There is no issue with Number of houses being built the issue is number of people per household and type of housing
People on average, cohabit later, have fewer children and stay independent later. All of those have lead to a much smaller household size. More children not living with both parents and a societal change to expect less sharing off rooms contribute to the fact we need more properties to house the same population (before we get to the rise in population)
Before we change housing policy to cram more shoeboxes into certain parts of the country we would be better off looking at incentives top persuade older residents to voluntarily downsize and move out of the peak demand areas to increase supply. The houses they live in are on average a lot better built than the McPersimonWimpeyCala Hutches being thrown u as "family homes" at present.
Most mass market housing constructed since the 80's is appalling and that in the last 20 years is horribly undersized.
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2008 report with some number in it - at that point in time there were 22.2 million properties in the uk and you can see the spread of when they were built and type of property on page 9 (even square footage)
in 2008 English population was 51.8 m so 22.2m houses for 62m people or 1 per 2.3333 people
in 2022 uk population 56.5m and 28.3m households so 1 per 2.4 people (census data)
apr21 - mar 22 208k dwellings built and the pop went up 217,8997 or nearly 1 new dwelling per new person
( alot of the rise in households 2008-22 was due to subdivision of larger houses/buildings into flats HMO's)
There is no truth that we are too crowded or not building enough new houses - we are actually not freeing up enough older underutilised houses and too many people expect too much space leaving others cramped. we have become a nation of some people with an urban house and a rural bolthole and others squeezed in an ex office broom cupboard with their entire family
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T
The Byre
Yes - asset price inflation!
OK, let's go through these issues a step at a time -
By creating huge amounts of money, year after year, decade after decade, central banks and governments have distorted every aspect of every market.
Governments create money in order to pay for those things that they cannot pay for through taxation because they like to make promises that cannot be paid for without raising taxes.
They cannot raise taxes because that would get them voted out of power and then the 'other lot' would get in - and they would of course do the same thing.
As long as they do this in small amounts, things sort of even out and the markets all muddle through, as a 1% or 2% inflation rate can be accommodated by modest wage and price rises and improvements in productivity.
Until 2008, productivity was growing at 2% so everything in the garden was fine. Then the GFC hit and UK productivity took a 5% hit in 12 months.
With the coming of masses of QE and Osborne's austerity policy with the austerity anomaly and productivity growth fell to 0.6% - over the years, that is a huge difference - by the end of this year, productivity will be 25% lower than it would have been, had the UK remained on trend. See this chart from the FT -
Was it the austerity anomaly? Was it QE? Was it Brexit? Was it the C19 pandemic lockdown? What caused the sudden fall in productivity?
I do not see a Brexit dip in that chart, and nor do I see a C19 dip - a major wobble, yes, but no movement off that pesky and miserable 0.6% growth rate.
The UK had austerity before under Thatcher - yet, despite some economic friction - growth in productivity was 2.3% overall until the GFC - see this chart -
It took ten whole years, just for the UK economy to recover to 2008 levels. In contrast, it took Germany about one year, France two, the US about five.
I looked at government debt-to-GDP ratios and it was not that (so far!) either. But that ratio has been going up everywhere and pretty soon (according to the IMF) dominoes there are going to start falling under the pressure of rising interest rates.
So how about the money supply - so I did a calculation for the US, the Eurozone and the UK.
€Z GDP $16.6trn - M3 money supply $17.45trn = M3 is 105% of GDP
UK GDP $3.2trn - M3 money supply $4.5trn = M3 is 140% of GDP
US GDP $25trn - M3 money supply $21.5trn = M3 is 116% of GDP
We may have our culprit! The BoE and the government have been using that 'Get out of Jail FREE!' card - printing money!
The mechanics of QE leading to a fall in productivity seems (Health warning! I am guessing!) to lead to extra money for low-productivity jobs and businesses.
The pathway goes like this -
- QE+low interest rates --> Asset Inflation (as we saw in the 2007 house price bubble).
- Rising house prices --> Equity for easy-entry start-ups (cake shops and design studios).
- Easy-entry business --> too much competition.
- Too much competition --> low productivity.
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- Original Poster
- #356
Wouldn't this suggest an increase in the number of companies?
Growth doesn't seem to start in 2010
Going against what is generally considered good, I think the number of small businesses in the UK is the biggest problem.
Doing the same thing
100 small businesses with all the costs associated with running 100 separate business, 100 small business owners driving round in Mercs
as apposed to
1 large business with all the costs associated with running 1 business, a couple of managers driving round in Mercs and 98 employees driving round in Fords
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If they are driving round in mercs, then their are either profitable (and in which case how is that a problem?) or the car is leased. Which is a huge problem nowadays- seems everyone has a new German car on lease.
What I think you are getting at (and correct me if I’m wrong) is that these small companies (and the middle earner employees leasing their mercs) are only enabled by zero interest rates. And that indeed is a problem!
Zero interest rates enable anyone to have a go at being a business owner. They also delay the weak from returning to employee status- as well as allow huge zombie companies to cling on.
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As an aside . . . Tesla evidently have some Cash Problems - Deciding to reduce the price in the the UK by £9,000! Quite rightly, those who purchased at the Full Price are a little 'Cheesed-Off!' BMW also took a knock recently too, as numerous Police Forces decided NOT to buy any more! There are problems with the 3.0 Litre Diesel Engine catching fire, which have been unresolved.
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