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Why overtaxing the rich is wrong

Discussion in 'General Business Forum' started by Cornish Steve, Apr 21, 2011.

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  1. hmmm

    hmmm UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    agreed and you have a valid point. people whom earn more tend to have out goings that par there earnings.
    the situation of things from all areas from cars to £10 cups of tea has created such a gulf that within a world we have many worlds all saying we live on one world. so when we actually think seriously about this we see a major problem.
     
    Posted: Apr 29, 2011 By: hmmm Member since: Apr 14, 2011
  2. Stephen Berry

    Stephen Berry UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    [FONT='Times New Roman','serif']THE TAX SYSTEM EXPLAINED IN BEER

    Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100.
    If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...

    The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing
    The fifth would pay $1
    The sixth would pay $3
    The seventh would pay $7
    The eighth would pay $12
    The ninth would pay $18
    The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59

    So, that's what they decided to do.

    The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20". Drinks for the ten men would now cost just $80.

    The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men ? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

    They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

    So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.

    And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% saving).
    The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% saving).
    The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% saving).
    The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% saving).
    The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% saving).
    The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% saving).

    Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.

    "I only got a dollar out of the $20 saving," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got $10!"

    "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"

    "That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back, when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

    "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!"

    The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

    The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

    And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

    David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
    Professor of Economics.

    For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
    For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible

    [/FONT]
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
    Posted: Apr 29, 2011 By: Stephen Berry Member since: Jan 3, 2007
  3. Dawg

    Dawg UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    Duplicate post.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
    Posted: Apr 29, 2011 By: Dawg Member since: Feb 12, 2006
  4. Stephen Berry

    Stephen Berry UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    well Matthew, i beat you by a few seconds ..... they say that 'fools seldom differ' - must be us!
    Have a good extended weekend :)
     
    Posted: Apr 29, 2011 By: Stephen Berry Member since: Jan 3, 2007
  5. hmmm

    hmmm UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    so really what we are saying is that the problem isnt the poor.its those in the middle.
    which to my mind is mostly correct.
    wealthy people dont moan about the poor ,its those in the middle that moan the most imo.
    the wannabies
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2011
    Posted: Apr 29, 2011 By: hmmm Member since: Apr 14, 2011
  6. hmmm

    hmmm UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    so really what we are saying is that the problem isnt the poor.its those in the middle.
    which to my mind is mostly correct.
    wealthy people dont moan about the poor ,its those in the middle that moan the most imo.
    the wannabies.
    i keep adding here.
    the threat of going over seas whilst i agree is real but also feel is not to realistic for the most part.people seem to under estimate this country and its ability to work hard dig in and make it what it is. today ive seen something ive not seen in this country for a long time and that is the proudness and a togetherness of being english.any country watching ours today will look in ore . the people made this day what it has been with the exceptence of what we have been, of what we are and what we can be .its up to EVERYONE to make it work .give a little to gain much. a happy people is a happy home and a productive home. its basic human science
     
    Posted: Apr 30, 2011 By: hmmm Member since: Apr 14, 2011
  7. adventurelife

    adventurelife UKBF Ace Full Member

    2,040 620
    Wake up

    Those in the middle what is the majority by far are getting squeezed. Only an very very small % will progress to what ever rich is.

    Therefore, those in the middle risking everything are being asked to support the country?

    I can tell you that is getting harder by the week so people like me who will always be in the middle will invest not in UK but elsewhere.

    When this becomes as it will a serious trend the UK will have even more serious problems than now, And it is already very very serious.

    Dream on if you do not think small business cannot rapidly move overseas.
     
    Posted: Apr 30, 2011 By: adventurelife Member since: Dec 2, 2007
  8. JohnnyCash

    JohnnyCash Guest

    1,427 480
    Most small businesses can't go abroad though. If you're providing a physical product/service you're stuck there. Then a lot of small business owners have family ties in UK, language barriers, kids in school, etc etc. Nearly every small business owner is going to have to just accept whatever tax rates are forced on them - they're not going anywhere.

    These are the people you need to tax - the ones who've no choice but to take it. They can't up sticks and leave.
     
    Posted: Apr 30, 2011 By: JohnnyCash Member since: Dec 8, 2010
  9. adventurelife

    adventurelife UKBF Ace Full Member

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    Totally agree but then there is a huge amount that can and more importantly new businesses that are opening are thinking different.

    By the way I provide a physical service/product and when I opened 8 years ago I was stuck here and I am still here but I also operate in many more countries and believe me I do not accept tax rates that are force on me.

    Not for every business of course, but common to much negative rather than positive. The UK has a history like no other country in the world businesses should be riding those coat tails as they are on the way out. It is only going to get harder.
     
    Posted: Apr 30, 2011 By: adventurelife Member since: Dec 2, 2007
  10. JohnnyCash

    JohnnyCash Guest

    1,427 480
    From the username I'm assuming some sort of adventure holidays? If thats right then you have considerably more freedom to move around than a butcher, baker or candle stick maker - they just need to accept whats given to the m on the tax front.
     
    Posted: Apr 30, 2011 By: JohnnyCash Member since: Dec 8, 2010
  11. adventurelife

    adventurelife UKBF Ace Full Member

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    Assumptions are interesting but often wrong. Each day I have to kick myself for making them.

    I make income from over many different streams and my passion, adventure is just one. Others include , retail, food, bars, transport, finance, and so on.

    Life is to short to be bored.
     
    Posted: Apr 30, 2011 By: adventurelife Member since: Dec 2, 2007
  12. Lee Jones Jnr

    Lee Jones Jnr UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    It seems that an edit of the thread title is needed. The discussion doesn't seem to be about the 'rich' more about those who earn enough to pay their own way in the world.
     
    Posted: Apr 30, 2011 By: Lee Jones Jnr Member since: Dec 6, 2009
  13. andygambles

    andygambles UKBF Ace Full Member - Verified Business

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    Which is a very good point.

    I live in a modest 3 bed semi. Drive a modest car (Zafira) have 3 kids yet pay 40% tax.

    Yes I can afford a few luxuries like a nice TV, a few holidays a year (talking UK not flash foreign trips). My kids have a few luxuries as well like ipods, laptop etc.

    However I seem no better off than the family round the corner who both do not have jobs. They have 5 kids so have a 6 bedroom detached house with a large garden. They have Sky, Xbox, PS3, Ipods, pretty much all the same as me. But all paid for by the council and benefits.

    Where does that come from? Probably the £16.5k in tax I paid last year.

    But then apparently I am rich.
     
    Posted: Apr 30, 2011 By: andygambles Member since: Jun 17, 2009
  14. hmmm

    hmmm UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    and when you do bugger off abroad those left behind will fill your shoes and move from the lower middle to the middle..


    theres an old saying in foootball no one player is bigger than the club...
    if im led to believe that all middle investors will move abroad then
    1 i dont believe it
    2 theres plenty of talent and skill here to replace you
    so you dream on if you think this country needs everything you have..
    there are plenty of very verey talented indaviduals working for talented individuals that can fill boots if the need comes
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2011
    Posted: Apr 30, 2011 By: hmmm Member since: Apr 14, 2011
  15. hmmm

    hmmm UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    show me these people...........
    show how much the same you are...........
     
    Posted: Apr 30, 2011 By: hmmm Member since: Apr 14, 2011
  16. Podge

    Podge UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    Just as an aside, it's cheaper to holiday abroad than it is in Britain.
     
    Posted: Apr 30, 2011 By: Podge Member since: Jan 13, 2011
  17. andygambles

    andygambles UKBF Ace Full Member - Verified Business

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    I am not saying they are the same. I also do not dispute I am actually better off than them.

    What I am trying to say is that when you start paying higher rate tax and see how much you are paying you start to see the world differently.

    You start to be cynical of those who live off benefits. Rightly or wrongly it becomes hard not to look at some people as spongers and start to think what I could do with that money to help much more deserving people than how it is currently used.

    I accept that this is in some way my own failing. By it becomes harder to have a balanced view as the tax begins to bite.

    It is, in my opinion, the unfair tax system that is creating a class divide rather than closing it.
     
    Posted: Apr 30, 2011 By: andygambles Member since: Jun 17, 2009
  18. hmmm

    hmmm UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    whilst i understand what you say,the reality is we need dolies a fors the jobs dolies create ..no dolies no job centers no low wages no many other jobs that exsist from there being dolies.

    of the many dolies there are a minority that really dont want to work.which is something that will always be there ... i doubt your tax would change if the few that dont want to work suddenly started working.
     
    Posted: Apr 30, 2011 By: hmmm Member since: Apr 14, 2011
  19. Podge

    Podge UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    You will never have a ballanced view while comparing your situation with the headline grabbing few rather than the genuine cases.
     
    Posted: Apr 30, 2011 By: Podge Member since: Jan 13, 2011
  20. andygambles

    andygambles UKBF Ace Full Member - Verified Business

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    Who has a more balanced view though? Someone who has been at all levels of the tax system or someone who has never been a higher rate payer?
     
    Posted: Apr 30, 2011 By: andygambles Member since: Jun 17, 2009
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