Teaming up with another self employed?

Discussion in 'Employment & HR' started by JennyM900, May 9, 2021.

  1. JennyM900

    JennyM900 UKBF Newcomer

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    Hi there! First ever post! Advice needed!

    I am a self employed domestic cleaner and want to team up with another self employed cleaner when we need some extra work....
    Each month they would let me know when they can work etc...
    No issues around trust or stealing clients etc.
    I just need to know the legalities of using them as a contractor i guess?
    They could invoice me for the hours worked each month on an agreed price?

    I only work school hours so nothing major. My work is enough to pay bills etc. So as much as id love to ...i couldnt afford to take them on as an employee, ive looked down this route but there is no way i can afford holiday pay etc.

    Help and advice needed as i dont want to do anything wrong!
    No nastyness please as ive seen in other posts. Just helpful advice! Thank you!
     
    Posted: May 9, 2021 By: JennyM900 Member since: May 9, 2021
    #1
  2. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend

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    Fine. They use their own equipment. They wear their own clothes.
    They turn up when they want to start, they take breaks when they want, they go when they want. And they can send someone else to do the work.
    And invoice you for work done as and when.

    That suit? Or do you need more control?

    Minimum wage at the moment is just under 9 pounds. As a cleaner I would bill 16 pounds an hour to do work for someone. Having to afford own holiday pay etc.
     
    Posted: May 9, 2021 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
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  3. JennyM900

    JennyM900 UKBF Newcomer

    9 0
    Thank you all sounds ok!

    In regards to when they work- could we discuss at the end of each month or week for the following month or week when and if we are working together? We would be working on the same houses at the same time you see.

    Hope this makes sense!
     
    Posted: May 9, 2021 By: JennyM900 Member since: May 9, 2021
    #3
  4. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend

    28,576 3,551
    You can discuss when you want. You just cannot control a contract in the same way you control an employee.
    So many (and not just in the cleaning business) try and make out their staff are self employed in order to save money when in reality what they have is employees without the benefits of being employed.
    And it can come back in later years to hit the employer.
     
    Posted: May 9, 2021 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
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  5. JennyM900

    JennyM900 UKBF Newcomer

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    Yes i get that.
    In what ways could it come back?
    I don't want to be doing anything wrong. It was just a suggestion as a way of moving forward and for us both to be working etc
     
    Posted: May 9, 2021 By: JennyM900 Member since: May 9, 2021
    #5
  6. Trevor Andrews

    Trevor Andrews UKBF Ace

    363 110
    It seems to me it’s just a mutual agreement to work together. As long you work when you want to and they pay you what you want I do not see a problem.

    I had a computer company and I offered on site training of staff. I used to go in when it was convenient to both parties, invoice them at the end of the month and that was it.
     
    Posted: May 10, 2021 By: Trevor Andrews Member since: Feb 9, 2021
    #6
  7. JennyM900

    JennyM900 UKBF Newcomer

    9 0
    Thank you for this information. Yes it would be a mutual agreement from both parties when we can work, rate of pay and invoice for the work done.
     
    Posted: May 10, 2021 By: JennyM900 Member since: May 9, 2021
    #7
  8. BustersDogs

    BustersDogs UKBF Legend

    1,439 284
    I have used self employed dog walkers to help me out when busy or off work. They tell me when they are available when I ask for help, and I pick the time least likely to cause inconvenience for my client for them to go ahead. They then send me an invoice for the work. They can send someone else to do the work, although I tend to pick people to help who would not do this. But if they did, I'd have to trust their judgement. I pay them what they ask, although one time I was quoted more than I charge my client. I would have sucked it up though, but when I mentioned that, the walker came back with a different time when they could do it at lower rates.

    I always smile when people say they can't afford an employee, when I couldn't, long term, afford subbies. Employees do take up time, effort energy and money, but if I had an employee walk 4 dogs for me, I pay an hourly rate. If I ask a subbie, I have to pay per dog... Even at the real living wage (not the govt wage, plus all the benefits), it's still cheaper than a sub.
     
    Posted: May 10, 2021 By: BustersDogs Member since: Jun 7, 2011
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  9. tony84

    tony84 UKBF Legend

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    You do have some control over the hours they work - but it is in agreement.
    ie I need you to be at the house at 10am on Tuesday. In the same way that if I wanted a plumber around I would arrange a day/time for them to be there. Obviously you cant physically force them to be there, if they do not turn up you can not fire them, but you also do not need to give them any more work.
     
    Posted: May 10, 2021 By: tony84 Member since: Apr 14, 2008
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  10. Paul Norman

    Paul Norman UKBF Legend

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    As you say in your opening post, they would effectively be a contractor - you sub out work to them

    You will agree with them what your expectations are, and what kind of availability you want them to provide for you - they can either agree to that, or not, of course.

    This is all legal, and quite normal.

    As to advice, though, I would strongly recommend that you draw up a contract between you.

    My reason is this. Right now, everything is fine. But these forums are packed with people who started out with no trust issues, and everything being fine, and 5 years down the roads it has gone wrong.
     
    Posted: May 10, 2021 By: Paul Norman Member since: Apr 8, 2010
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  11. JennyM900

    JennyM900 UKBF Newcomer

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    Thanks everyone for all your advice!

    I want to go into this with all the knowledge i can. Its not a decision I'm making lightly so all your input really helps.

    Can anyone advise further on what sort of things to include in a agreement contract?

    Thank you in advance!
     
    Posted: May 10, 2021 By: JennyM900 Member since: May 9, 2021
    #11
  12. JennyM900

    JennyM900 UKBF Newcomer

    9 0
    Yeah i totally get that. Things would be so much simpler long term to employ someone i think, but i dont see how i could afford to pay holiday pay, Sick pay, pension etc.
    Maybe in the future its a route to explore. But at the moment im only a very small business who just needs an extra pair of hands every now and again which is why i think teaming up with someone else who is a self employed cleaner would work for now.
    Thank you for your advice. Its all so helpful to a newbie like me!
     
    Posted: May 10, 2021 By: JennyM900 Member since: May 9, 2021
    #12
  13. JennyM900

    JennyM900 UKBF Newcomer

    9 0

    Its not that i want to cut corners or save money etc. If i could afford it i do think employing someone would be simpler than this. But for the time being i just meed an extra pair of hands every now and again. I am only a very very small business and just dont see how i could afford to pay hol pay, sick pay, pension etc. If i took someone on as an employee... and they were on holiday leave etc... most likely i cant carry out the work which means no pay for that job but id still have to pay the employee... etc. It just isn't feasible.for me right now to take the employee route. So if i can sub contract work to someone now and again seems to be the best option.

    Thanks you
     
    Posted: May 10, 2021 By: JennyM900 Member since: May 9, 2021
    #13
  14. ecommerce84

    ecommerce84 UKBF Legend

    991 349
    A fellow self employed cleaner would certainly be the most straightforward - they invoice you for the hours worked and you pay it. However an employee would likely be cheaper - any self employed person with the lights switched on would be charging enough to cover the holiday, pension and sick pay they’d be missing out on as well as charging above the minimum wage.

    An employee could even be on a zero hours contract (for flexibility - although that works both ways).

    There are some steps you should take to ensure any contractor is genuinely a contractor rather than an employee - ‘working hours they want to work’ doesn’t mean that they can just rock up at any time on the day, but more so that you agree the times between you.

    I always think the biggest acid test is whether they work exclusively for you - if they’ve got 4 or 5 other clients, your fine. If it’s just you or a couple of you, it’s more of an issue. Make sure they wear their own uniform rather thank yours as well.

    The legislation was brought in more to ensure cowboys like deliveroo, Amazon and Uber can’t deny their employees of their statutory rights rather than stop a self employed cleaner contracting another one.
     
    Posted: May 10, 2021 By: ecommerce84 Member since: Feb 24, 2007
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  15. BustersDogs

    BustersDogs UKBF Legend

    1,439 284
    If you are too busy for one person, but can't afford to employ a second, then you are not charging your clients enough. I go over this with dog walkers all the time, they are so busy they need help, but they are charging clients what I was charging 12 years ago, nearly half what I charge now.
     
    Posted: May 11, 2021 By: BustersDogs Member since: Jun 7, 2011
    #15
    • Useful Useful x 1
  16. JennyM900

    JennyM900 UKBF Newcomer

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    I am only busy enough now and again, not all the time. But charging a higher rate in my area wouldn't suit at the moment. Ive researched and at the moment what i charge is a reasonable price. Ive only been going 6 months. Once over been going a year or 2. Then id look at a price increased and eventually down the employee route to hopefully make things simple ha and if i still have enough work to do this!

    Thanks
     
    Posted: May 13, 2021 By: JennyM900 Member since: May 9, 2021
    #16
  17. BustersDogs

    BustersDogs UKBF Legend

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    If you are turning work away because you are busy, or need extra help to cope with the work you have, then all the research means is that everyone is undercharging.
     
    Posted: May 13, 2021 By: BustersDogs Member since: Jun 7, 2011
    #17
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  18. JennyM900

    JennyM900 UKBF Newcomer

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    Ok thank you for your message.. ..

    I think ive got all my answers now.

    Thanks everyone!
     
    Posted: May 13, 2021 By: JennyM900 Member since: May 9, 2021
    #18