Should the rules on UKBF be relaxed a bit?

Discussion in 'Feedback & Help' started by UKSBD, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. Ray Newman

    Ray Newman UKBF Regular Staff Member

    138 20
    UKBF editor here. Lots of interesting thoughts in this thread. I'll just pick up on a few things:

    1. The original question didn't come from Sift/UKBF, though we're obviously interested in seeing the responses.

    2. Forums in general aren't as popular as they used to be since the arrival of Twitter, LinkedIn, &c. But, believe it or not, this is one of the most active still around and there's no sense at our end of it being in bad shape.

    3. I tend to agree that snarky, sarky responses to new members aren't helpful. Everybody has to start somewhere and the way we learn is by asking daft questions. I'd rather people who find them annoying ignore basic questions and leave others with more patience to give helpful answers.

    4. I'm not inclined to relax the self promo rules at the moment. When I ask for a recommendation, I want a third party to endorse a product or service, not the product or service provider recommending themselves. But if someone says something like "If you're a plumber in Dorchester, let me know" then of course it's fine to pipe up.

    5. The rules are fairly clear but they're hard to enforce. It's not automated and we don't have a vast team of moderators. As with most forums, up to and including Facebook, we rely on user reports. If you see something you think breaches the rules, click the report button and we'll make a measured judgement. (We can't promise you'll like the judgement but...)

    6. We bend over backwards to avoid banning people or censoring conversations. I've hardly banned anyone since taking over this role from Kat back in January. But, as it's come up, this is a business forum, not a political soapbox, and there are certain topics I'd personally rather people discussed elsewhere. If I'm a first time visitor with a query about running my new business, I wouldn't be particularly interested in 'challenging' opinions on politics etc.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2019 By: Ray Newman Member since: Dec 13, 2018
    #41
  2. estwig

    estwig UKBF Legend Free Member

    12,365 4,339
    I think you miss the point, like the thread about gambling which you locked. This isn't just a business forum, it's a community of business people. The gambling thread should have been moved to time out, not locked, if people want to discuss gambling or politics and do so in time out, that should be fine.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2019 By: estwig Member since: Sep 29, 2006
    #42
  3. Ray Newman

    Ray Newman UKBF Regular Staff Member

    138 20
    We had a lot of chat about what to do with that thread. My view was that it needed to stay in GB as it started out on topic, but drifted off. If we had a way to move *half* a thread to a new forum, I'd have done that.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2019 By: Ray Newman Member since: Dec 13, 2018
    #43
  4. gpietersz

    gpietersz UKBF Enthusiast Full Member

    888 195
    Ray Newman, you really do need a way to move halves of threads. That is what the other forum I use heavily does in situations like this.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2019 By: gpietersz Member since: Sep 10, 2019
    #44
  5. Gordon - Commercial Finance

    Gordon - Commercial Finance UKBF Ace Free Member

    2,295 736
    That thread was never business related. Should have been in TO from the start.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2019 By: Gordon - Commercial Finance Member since: Jun 26, 2017
    #45
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  6. estwig

    estwig UKBF Legend Free Member

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    The whole thread should have been moved to time out. Don't kill the community, or it'll just be newbies taking to newbies and getting nowhere, then with a lack of business advice, the newbies will stop coming too.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2019 By: estwig Member since: Sep 29, 2006
    #46
  7. Ray Newman

    Ray Newman UKBF Regular Staff Member

    138 20
    OK, OK, I surrender -- it's been moved to Time Out and unlocked.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2019 By: Ray Newman Member since: Dec 13, 2018
    #47
  8. Gordon - Commercial Finance

    Gordon - Commercial Finance UKBF Ace Free Member

    2,295 736
    Well that was easy. Come on Ray have a bit of backbone!


    That was a joke, for the record.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2019 By: Gordon - Commercial Finance Member since: Jun 26, 2017
    #48
  9. estwig

    estwig UKBF Legend Free Member

    12,365 4,339
    Thank you, the odd thing is I don't care, I don't gamble or talk politics, but plenty do seem to enjoy it.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2019 By: estwig Member since: Sep 29, 2006
    #49
  10. The Byre

    The Byre UKBF Ace Free Member

    9,800 3,962
    1. I have learned a great deal from this forum, simply because in the past, I just worried about my business and did not bother with the trials and tribulations of others.

    2. I was shocked at the low levels of business knowledge and acumen within the start-up community. Nobody can have an in-depth knowledge of retail and contract law and business economics and company law and bookkeeping and all matters IT and and and - BUT they MUST have a basic knowledge of the basic principles of these fields.

    3. I was similarly shocked at the short-termism that we see in most sectors of the larger business community that are dominated by listed companies being reflected in the start-up and SME communities. I have not yet seen a single posting asking how to structure a company so that it will still be there in 100 years' time for grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

    4. I continue to be surprised by the numbers of startups that never get to start up, but crash-and-burn within a couple of years, leaving in their wake a trail of unpaid bills. I come from a society where almost every apprentice is already dreaming of the day when he or she will have completed their master's certificate and can start their own company in 15 or 20 years' time. Here it's a case of 'Have-a-go!' followed almost every time by compulsory liquidation and the 'White-Eared Elephant'.

    5. Why the hell do so many owners/managers of SMEs find reading so damn difficult? Contracts - reports at Companies House - credit reports - don't you guys learn to read and write at school? How many times do we have to read "I have since discovered that they have had several companies liquidated and they still owe us £X,000s."? Whatever happened to reading up on this stuff BEFORE you give some chancer credit?

    So given all of the above, I would very much like to see the continued good health of the forum community. It provides good 'first-aid' style knowledge and advice for many people who hitherto may have assumed that they were battling alone against deadbeat employees, deadbeat employers, deadbeat customers and the usual 'vulturesque' flock of rip-off merchants that prey upon startups that fall foul of points 2, 3, 4 & 5.

    (P.S. Wherever you do business - buy the building and try to borrow as little as possible. That way you won't stumble on point 3 and end up here wringing your hands over point 4.)
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2019 By: The Byre Member since: Aug 13, 2013
    #50
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  11. JEREMY HAWKE

    JEREMY HAWKE UKBF Legend Full Member

    4,935 1,645
    I have an idea It might be a bad one
    The owners of the site should try to promote the site to MPs and big business leaders
    I have heard this site mentioned on LBC only once
    Now theres a challenge
    Who is going to phone in on a subject and explain . "The honest business views are for all to see on UK Business Forums ! "

    I do know that two MPs read it but FFS please don't ask how I know because you wont get it from me .
     
    Posted: Dec 1, 2019 By: JEREMY HAWKE Member since: Mar 4, 2008
    #51
  12. Financial-Modeller

    Financial-Modeller UKBF Enthusiast Full Member

    673 224
    Not sure if this should have its own thread, but the Moderation function on UKBF seems to be doing more damage than good.

    It seems that somebody who says something stupid, then gets called out for it, can request that their stupid post is removed, plus anything identifying that it was stupid, even when the post calling it out as stupid received thanks from other members for doing so.

    Surely a basic premise of posting anything to the web is that it is permanent, so one stands by what one says, which should encourage one to not say stupid things.

    Many other forums operate successfully on this basis.

    If one expects that stupidity will be called out, it encourages one to check facts prior to posting, thereby increasing the quality of the content that is posted.

    UKBF moderation policy encourages the opposite: freely post something stupid, in the knowledge that if someone responds in a manner that one doesn't like, one can ask for all reference to it to be removed. Is this a good use of moderators' time?

    One potential consequence of this is that people posting intelligently will be less likely to contribute, leaving the forum to those who don't.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
    Posted: Dec 4, 2019 By: Financial-Modeller Member since: Jul 3, 2012
    #52
  13. UKSBD

    UKSBD Not a real duck Staff Member

    9,968 1,945
    The policy is already that posts don't get removed.

    People can request their posts to be deleted, but they rarely are, and if they are it's usually a SIFT decision rather than a moderators.

    They may get removed for other reasons, flaming, trolling, abuse, off-topic, but not because the poster requested it
     
    Posted: Dec 4, 2019 By: UKSBD Member since: Dec 30, 2005
    #53
  14. paulears

    paulears UKBF Big Shot Full Member

    4,284 1,102
    The only posts I have noticed getting removed are ones that in this day and age should not be published by responsible people like the ones who host the forum. Some things are plain stupid, but apart from showing the poster up don't cause problems. Some however are just plain nasty, and these go - which seems the sensible thing. Can't say I'm unhappy at all by the way the mods deal with this. Works fine for me.
     
    Posted: Dec 4, 2019 By: paulears Member since: Jan 7, 2015
    #54
  15. Chris Ashdown

    Chris Ashdown UKBF Legend Free Member

    11,479 2,366
    So many long time members who have no time for posters who do not ask their questions in a manner they seem it should be, their replies are ignorant and insulting and i guess would never be said face to face , but they feel they can bully the poster
     
    Posted: Dec 4, 2019 By: Chris Ashdown Member since: Dec 7, 2003
    #55
  16. JEREMY HAWKE

    JEREMY HAWKE UKBF Legend Full Member

    4,935 1,645
    https://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/threads/how-and-where-to-find-a-mentor.402248/

    What do you expect Chris I actually think it is insult to approach business owners with this type of dross.
    It would be advantageous for all if people like myself just ignored it but I am fuming as soon as I see this stuff
     
    Posted: Dec 4, 2019 By: JEREMY HAWKE Member since: Mar 4, 2008
    #56
  17. Clinton

    Clinton UKBF Big Shot Full Member

    4,943 2,093
    That's a good example, @JEREMY HAWKE

    I gave the OP a polite and helpful answer. What happened? Hilariously, s/he got deeply offended, called me rude and called my opinion useless.

    Sometimes I wonder why I'm all sweetness and light around here. :)

    Perhaps we should be expecting more of the quality of newbies UKBF allows on this site.

    No, seriously.

    How SIFT do it is not our problem, but it's up to management to maintain quality. Allow lower and lower quality newbies - in terms of not of their knowledge but their expectations and attitude - and you end up with problems.

    Anyway, I've got a busy few weeks coming up and I've had my fill of numpties, so you guys have them all to yourselves for a bit.

    Enjoy!
     
    Posted: Dec 4, 2019 By: Clinton Member since: Jan 17, 2010
    #57
  18. Clinton

    Clinton UKBF Big Shot Full Member

    4,943 2,093
    PS: Tip for management, if they're interested:

    I've owned big forums. The rules for newbies were more stringent. So, yes, your "no links" is a good rule. But then you give them links at 30 posts and you've built an incentive for them to make 30 brain dead posts just so they can acquire link dropping privileges. And we, the people who work tirelessly to generate content for you, have to trawl through that sh*t and read it.

    Giveusabreak!

    I experimented with a higher bar for newbies and it worked well - a higher bar in terms of quality of posts.

    For example, "no fluff posts". How you define fluff is up to you but, for example, if someone posted a one liner demonstrating their stupidity, they got banned. No mercy. So a one liner asking just "how do I market my business?" would attract an immediate ban because it suggests a lazy clutz who couldn't be ars*d.

    You don't need to give them any explanation, just ban them. You'll find the quality improving substantially.
     
    Posted: Dec 4, 2019 By: Clinton Member since: Jan 17, 2010
    #58
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  19. Chris Ashdown

    Chris Ashdown UKBF Legend Free Member

    11,479 2,366
    Guys you can simply shut up and not reply, you are not forced to reply if you dont like the question
     
    Posted: Dec 5, 2019 By: Chris Ashdown Member since: Dec 7, 2003
    #59
  20. estwig

    estwig UKBF Legend Free Member

    12,365 4,339
    Radical!
     
    Posted: Dec 5, 2019 By: estwig Member since: Sep 29, 2006
    #60