Sellers beware... helps perpetuate fraud with their A-Z guarantee.

Discussion in 'Ecommerce Forum' started by zeone, May 13, 2009.

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  1. leolouis

    leolouis Guest

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    Ok, Andy, why said that was because of frustration it has caused...

    Ok this what happened; I sold the fallowing item; £82.14 1 Adobe Dreamweaver CS4 Student Edition (PC DVD).

    My bank account info and address registered with them is correct, i have done business with them times before.

    They said;

    Dear Leo Louis,

    Thank you for contacting us at Marketplace with your enquiry
    regarding the disbursement of funds to your bank account.

    I have checked your seller account and see that the funds for order
    have already been initiated to your payments account.

    Please log in the URL and confirm the same.

    Any available funds credited to your Seller Account will automatically be
    disbursed on a fortnightly basis.


    I did this and i am still waiting a response from them. The point is I think its terrible that some people have go though this.
    Posted: Jun 18, 2010 By: leolouis Member since: Jan 1, 1970
  2. AndyP

    AndyP UKBF Enthusiast Free Member

    850 174
    1. I can't really see what the issue actually is.
    2. Did you not read the terms and conditions before selling? They are pretty clear.
    3. The item that you sold definitely falls into the "be wary and watch" category so this may be a reason for withholding funds.
    4. As you haven't given any dates I really cannot comment as to the speed of funds release.
    5. If you have done business with Amazon before and not experienced any issues surely that shows you that under normal circumstances the internal systems work, indicating that there is something different about this particular sale.
    6. This sounds like an individual sale though, rather than a business..... is your grief seriously centred around one sale for one piece of software? If you are or represent a business (given that this is a business forum) surely your time would be better spent focussing on the bigger picture as a delay in thes funds release for one sale probably won't stop the world revolving.
    Posted: Jun 19, 2010 By: AndyP Member since: Oct 11, 2008
  3. Mister B

    Mister B UKBF Ace Free Member

    2,394 539
    I agree with Andy...there's a perfectly simple solution...don't sell on Amazon.

    We trade on Amazon and despite the strict rules, (which are there for a reason I hasten to add,) it more than pays it's way.

    Mister B
    Posted: Jun 19, 2010 By: Mister B Member since: Aug 31, 2007
  4. FreelanceSoftwareDeveloper

    FreelanceSoftwareDeveloper UKBF Ace Free Member

    1,561 348
    Glad to see the OP got the right result in the end, I can understand your frustration but I don't think Amazon did anything wrong if you look at it.

    They showed 'proof of postage' for the return which was about the right weight and price, you claimed it was fake. They could've simply claimed your letter was fake.

    Amazon have to follow some fairly simple guidelines set out by consumer law and the buyer clearly submitted documentation to show they did their part (supposedly). Amazon cannot take it on themselves to be judge and jury in fraudulent claims that is what the courts are for.
    Posted: Jun 19, 2010 By: FreelanceSoftwareDeveloper Member since: Sep 14, 2009
  5. solosinger

    solosinger UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    1 0
    I have a problem. I am a self publishing author who uses Lulu, for printing, and Amason for promotion. I tried to remove my books from Lul printing press, as I am the publisher and own the right. However, despite numerous emails Amazon and Lulu who have a deal still continues to sell my books between them.

    No amount of legal threat made against themwill stop them from doing this criminal breach of copyright. I am stuck as I want them to remove my books from their shelves. Please can someone help me please?
    Posted: Feb 11, 2011 By: solosinger Member since: Feb 11, 2011
  6. AndyP

    AndyP UKBF Enthusiast Free Member

    850 174

    I think you might be better off starting a new thread in the legal forum for this. You are likely to get far better advice there.

    Good luck!
    Posted: Feb 14, 2011 By: AndyP Member since: Oct 11, 2008
  7. fightfraud

    fightfraud UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    3 0
    This time, I thought I would win the case but NO. Amazon A to Z hasn't changed. It is is supporting fraudsters and cheaters.
    I have been sent a camera back, there was no need to check the serial number as from the visual check I could confirm that it was not mine. All broken, dirty and scratched. Rung Amazon seller support and asured me that the A to Z would support me. The buyer opened a claim and responded to her and said that if she wanted a refund se has to send the right camera. after 4 days, Amazon asked me to refund the buyer, I issued a partial refund at the value of a camera for spares and repair. 3 days later Amazon refunded the buyer "Cheater" and gave the full refund.
    After various emails, they gave me a number to call:

    Customer Service can be reached from Monday to Friday, 8:00 am -- 6:00 pm (GMT)

    Phone: 0800 279 6620 (from within the UK)
    +44 20 8636 9451 (outside the UK)

    Guess what? The number is dead, how can an organisation at the size of Amazon do that to it's customers?
    I am thinking now to take the matter to the Police as very frustrated.
    I told Amazon: "You are an accomplice because you are supporting these fraudsters, You haven't done any investigation and if it was your money you wouldn't refund a thief".

    The law of the jungle!
    Posted: Jul 29, 2011 By: fightfraud Member since: Jul 28, 2011
  8. fightfraud

    fightfraud UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    3 0
    I think an action is required such as a new legistlation but we need to be united even sellers who haven't been cheated yet.
    Posted: Jul 29, 2011 By: fightfraud Member since: Jul 28, 2011
  9. AndyP

    AndyP UKBF Enthusiast Free Member

    850 174
    I'm a bit confused. Where did that telephone number for Support come from or more to the point "when" did it come from? Seller Support hasn't been available via telephone for some considerable time moved to a ticket based system.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2011
    Posted: Jul 30, 2011 By: AndyP Member since: Oct 11, 2008
  10. fightfraud

    fightfraud UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    3 0
    Hi Andy P,
    This is the copy of the email sent to me after insisting to speak to a human:

    Thank you for writing to us at

    We apologize that we are unable to contact you directly by phone as you requested. Unfortunately, we do not make outgoing phone calls.

    If this response does not address your inquiry or concern, you are welcome to call our Customer Service department:

    Customer Service can be reached from Monday to Friday, 8:00 am -- 6:00 pm (GMT)

    Phone: 0800 279 6620 (from within the UK)
    +44 20 8636 9451 (outside the UK)

    We are also available to assist you 7 days a week via e-mail. For future reference, you can contact us via e-mail by going to the URL below at any time:

    Thank you for doing business with

    Account Specialist
    A-to-z Guarantee Program
    Posted: Jul 30, 2011 By: fightfraud Member since: Jul 28, 2011
  11. Robprotronica

    Robprotronica UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    13 2
    Just wanted to update this thread with a modified version of the "returns" Amazon fraud that we have been hit with.

    Via Amazon Marketplace we received an order for a HyperJuice battery £359.95 which we duly dispatched using a courier service and a day or so latter received the routine "Delivery Complete" email from the couriers.

    About a week latter we get a delivery enquiry from the buyer saying, "where's my battery I have not received it". So we ask the couriers for the delivery signature and next day we recieve a pdf file with a copy of the delivery address, signature and delivery time.

    We send the information to the buyer and he says, "Not my signature - where's my battery?"

    The address is an apartment block, so thinking that maybe it got delivers to the wrong apartment, we arrange, via the courier company, for the delivery driver to return to the delivery address. At the delivery address, the driver meets with the buyer and sees inside the apartment the woman he recognises as the person who signed for the package.

    Despite the driver clearly identifying someone inside the delivery address as the recipient of the package, the buyer continues to claim that the goods have not been delivered.

    No surprise that an A to Z guarantee claim gets filed.

    The buyer has never challenged our position, that the goods have been delivered to someone seen inside the flat, he just maintains that he has not received them.

    No surprise either on which way Amazon have found.

    Has anyone out there had Amazon find in favour of the seller?

    One of the earlier posts said, Amazon essentially have to pick whether they are going to support fraudulent sellers or fraudulent buyers and their only choice is to support the fraudulent buyer.

    I can't see that Amazon have any option but to support this kind of fraud - it is just morally reprehensible and leaves a very bad taste.

    The only thing we can do is treat Amazon as a marginal, high risk sales channel. The more the message gets out amongst sellers that Amazon is "High Risk", perhaps Amazon will shift its stance somewhat, but I am not holding out much hope.
    Posted: Aug 28, 2011 By: Robprotronica Member since: Aug 28, 2011
  12. kulture

    kulture UKBF Legend Staff Member

    7,990 2,188
    In your situation, you have enough evidence to go for a small claim. Why not.

    I have had Amazon find in my favour against a buyer. I have also had Amazon find in favour of the buyer BUT fund the refund themselves. So it is not always as black and white as you say.
    Posted: Aug 28, 2011 By: kulture Member since: Aug 11, 2007
  13. Robprotronica

    Robprotronica UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    13 2
    Hi Kulture,

    We are looking at what we can do through the legal system - the buyer is in Holland and we are in the UK so more effort probably needed than maybe it is worth - although the couriers local delivery depot in Holland have volunteered to help in any action we want to take.

    Also good to know that Amazon sometimes side with the seller. I have not really done much research in this area but the immediate impression when starting to google this issue is that there are a huge amount of sellers complaining about Amazon/PayPal/eBay supporting fraudulent customer claims and, so far, I have not seen anything from customers complaining they didn't get refunds.

    Amazon in particular make much of the proposition that buying through them is the safe way to buy on the internet. However, this proposition is in large part funded by the sellers not Amazon.

    We know that Amazons proposition is attractive to certain buyers, even though our products are slightly more expensive on Amazon compared to our own site, we still get about 10% of sales via Amazon. So Amazon is a useful channel - what I think we are realising is that it is also a "High Risk" channel.

    As a "High Risk" channel perhaps it is best suited to lower cost items or high margin items. For higher cost items, unless margins are also high, then the risk may not be worth it.

    Even given your more positive experiences of Amazon, I think that fundamentally Amazon is a High Risk channel and the more sellers who come to the same conclusion the more Amazon will become a "Cheap Bazaar", destroying its own usefulness.

    Posted: Aug 29, 2011 By: Robprotronica Member since: Aug 28, 2011
  14. kalpna

    kalpna UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    4 0
    Have you managed to resolve the issue, and if yes how?
    We have a similar issue where the item has been delivered signed for and the customer is stipulating not receiving it, we have proof of delivery also from royal mail but through A-Z AMAZON done a full refund to the buyer, without our consent.

    we are out of pocket for £390 and royal mail wont cover us even thought we sent it insured as they are saying its been delivered.
    Posted: Aug 31, 2011 By: kalpna Member since: Aug 31, 2011
  15. kalpna

    kalpna UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    4 0
    We had a similar issue and amazon has done a full refund to the buyer even though we have proof from the delivery company. I give up selling on amazon as they are encouraging fraud
    Posted: Aug 31, 2011 By: kalpna Member since: Aug 31, 2011
  16. Robprotronica

    Robprotronica UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    13 2

    Sorry to hear that Amazon have again supported fraudsters rather than the sellers - but I don't think we can expect much different.

    We have not given up selling on Amazon - we have just decided that it is a "High risk" channel which brings us some useful sales. However, as a "High Risk" channel we are now being more careful about what we sell and the precautions we take with higher value items.

    Basically we are not going to put a lot of effort into selling on Amazon as it is too risky, but we are not going to throw away sales either.

    Posted: Aug 31, 2011 By: Robprotronica Member since: Aug 28, 2011
  17. kalpna

    kalpna UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    4 0
    Just wanted to let you know that i appealed Amazon's decision with ample proof and i got my money which was a nice surprise.

    What happened that the person who claimed non delivery from me even though we had proof of delivery ordered the same item from a friend of my who i happened to visit when he was dispatching the order, purely out of luck i saw this and said omg that is the same person who amazon has refunded my money even tough i have proof of delivery this person is scamming as her address given to my friend was totally different to where i was asked to dispatch, very suspicious so we both reported this to amazon he cancelled her order and i got fully rembursed.

    so with ample proof they do side with sellers.
    Posted: Sep 5, 2011 By: kalpna Member since: Aug 31, 2011
  18. Robprotronica

    Robprotronica UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    13 2
    Hi Kalpna,

    We have an appeal in wit Amazon so we will have to wait and see what happens with that.

    Our "Buyer" was a little more sneaky. We have a copy of the delivery signature from the courier company, but the buyer says, "thats not my signature - I never signed for anything".

    The Buyer sent us a copy of his Dutch ID card to show that it is not his signature - actually he did this before we got anything back from the couriers, so we started to get suspicious.

    When the delivery driver went back to the delivery address at our request, the driver saw a woman in the apartment and recognised her as the person who signed for the delivery. The "Buyer" has just ignored the fact that the person signing has been recognised and simply makes no comment about this in any communication.

    So we have proof of delivery but supposedly with an unknown signature.

    Don't think Amazon are going to find in our favour on this one.

    Posted: Sep 5, 2011 By: Robprotronica Member since: Aug 28, 2011
  19. titanicuk

    titanicuk UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    52 3
    Seling online is always risky. So only sell things you can affort to lose.

    By the way, not all buyers cliamed item not reieved are fruadster. Might be it is the driver sign for the parcel. they get paid for 'Delivered' item, and no pay for redlivery. So there is not much incentive for them to card buyer. Simply sign for it and do what ever he wants. I used to post about 100 parcel per week with DXX, and this happens alot specially in London area when address is in apartment. I know this happen cos most buyer will accept replacement product rather than refund, my product is low cost and only need once.
    Posted: Sep 6, 2011 By: titanicuk Member since: Sep 5, 2011
  20. Robprotronica

    Robprotronica UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    13 2
    Hi Titanicuk,

    I agree that not all claims are fraud - our first thoughts with this delivery were that the package had been lost or mis-delivered by the couriers, although that would be a first. We have sent several thousand packages via APC Overnight and whilst there have been a handful of issues, we have so far not had a package permanently lost.

    We were losing about 1% with Royal Mail.

    I think we have to accept that selling stuff is risky. However, we have only been hit with fraud via Amazon and not our own web sites, hence my contention that Amazon is a High Risk Channel especially as there is a strong body of evidence on this tread and other places that Amazon sides with the customer unless there is conclusive proof otherwise. The standard of proof required by Amazon would seem to go beyond that required by the courts as several sellers who have A-Z claims denied by Amazon have gone on to successfully claim from the "Buyer" via the courts.

    So our view is Amazon is higher risk than other channels and a morally reprehensible company for siding with the fraudsters.

    Posted: Sep 6, 2011 By: Robprotronica Member since: Aug 28, 2011
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