Self Employed Holiday??

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Joe E, Sep 8, 2009.

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  1. Joe E

    Joe E UKBF Enthusiast

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    Hi

    Currently have only PAYE employees however in the process of putting in place a self employed person! can anyone tell me what the holiday entitlements are if at all?
    Looked on BL site but not clear

    Regards

    Chris
     
    Posted: Sep 8, 2009 By: Joe E Member since: Oct 24, 2007
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  2. Employment Law Clinic

    Employment Law Clinic Verified Business ✔️

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    Workers - a wider definition than employees - are entitled to holidays, but we would need to consider the context in which you are putting in place a self-employed person - will they be on a contract to provide work, be a worker, an employee with a fudged title to their status?
     
    Posted: Sep 8, 2009 By: Employment Law Clinic Member since: Aug 10, 2009
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  3. Joe E

    Joe E UKBF Enthusiast

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    Well they will be contracted to do carry out work as a normal PAYE employee would! not sure you mean by fudged title though??
     
    Posted: Sep 8, 2009 By: Joe E Member since: Oct 24, 2007
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  4. Williams lester

    Williams lester UKBF Legend

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    If this is a person working on a self employed basis to avoid tax & NI then HMRC will most likely deem them to be an employee. You will then be liable for the tax, NI & employers NI based on the amounts you pay them being their net pay.
     
    Posted: Sep 8, 2009 By: Williams lester Member since: Oct 16, 2008
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  5. Joe E

    Joe E UKBF Enthusiast

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    Goodness Me!! look this not what I asked, I just need to know am I obliged to provide them Holiday Pay or not if so is there any special requirements that differs from holiday pay entitled to a PAYE employee? and for information it's not about avoiding tax it's about getting onboard a very good and specialist person who prefers to work this way.
     
    Posted: Sep 8, 2009 By: Joe E Member since: Oct 24, 2007
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  6. Mpg

    Mpg UKBF Legend

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    Hiya Joe

    Williams lester is not having a go.
    He's trying to cover your backside from the way the PAYE may see the situation.

    Is the self employed person working only for you on a full time basis. If so the IR would most prob see that you employ them.

    Basically they want everyone to be Employed. That way they only have to go to each organisation to collect money. 1 company instead of 100 self employed people.

    Its a grey area I only have self employed owner drivers working for me.
    They all do other work such as other courier work or Taxi work and car valeting.

    They want the freedom and they supply the tools.

    Is it a permenant contract.


    But to answer your question(dont take this as Law)

    As your His customer I believe you would not be liable for anthing regarding Sick/holiday.

    But as he is self employed he can take as much holiday/Sick time as he so wishes. And he can put someone to work in his place.


    hope that kinda helps in a laymens way
     
    Posted: Sep 8, 2009 By: Mpg Member since: Aug 18, 2009
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  7. Joe E

    Joe E UKBF Enthusiast

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    Mpg Thanks

    Ok the post seemed to slightly off topic in that is was talking about avoiding tax rather than holiday pay anyway.

    It is not a permanent contract it will be on and off when required so they will be working elsewhere in between hence why it makes sense to both parties to make it self employed.
    So going by what you say if he can take as much holiday and sick as he wants he can but barring statutory sick it will be unpaid by me is that right??
     
    Posted: Sep 8, 2009 By: Joe E Member since: Oct 24, 2007
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  8. Mpg

    Mpg UKBF Legend

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    I'm NO expert by any stretch of the imagination. However I have had to do my own research.

    I may be way off with this BUT.

    If your window cleaner goes on holiday do you still pay him.
    Or If your window cleaner gets sick do you still pay them.

    If he is self employed he will work for more than one person/company and would be liable for his own sick/holiday pay.

    Whats to stop him going to the 10 other businesess he does work for asking for holiday pay.


    Like I said I'm no Guru. Thats just how I had it explained to me(whether its right or not)

    I'm sure someone else will quote the law and clear it up a little
     
    Posted: Sep 8, 2009 By: Mpg Member since: Aug 18, 2009
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  9. Joe E

    Joe E UKBF Enthusiast

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    Mpg Thanks again you've been a very helpful on this.

    Regards

    Chris
     
    Posted: Sep 8, 2009 By: Joe E Member since: Oct 24, 2007
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  10. mhall

    mhall UKBF Legend

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    If he is truly self employed, holiday pay, sick pay etc are not your problem - thats the short answer.

    As other posters have pointed out, you need to make sure the worker is TRULY self employed or you WILL be landed with every thing you give your current employees - and it matters not that he comes and goes - it just makes him a part time worker. Check out the IR35 regulations for the guidance that the tax devil uses to determine whether people are self employed or not
     
    Posted: Sep 8, 2009 By: mhall Member since: Sep 8, 2009
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  11. coxadmin

    coxadmin UKBF Enthusiast

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    When I was self-employed my clients did not pay me when I took time off - it was effectively unpaid and I usually had clients who required a replacement while I was away so I had to sub-contract the work for the duration I was away.

    Hope that helps.
     
    Posted: Sep 8, 2009 By: coxadmin Member since: Nov 5, 2004
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  12. Joe E

    Joe E UKBF Enthusiast

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    Lynn

    Thank-you as well! it looks increasingly like I'm not obliged, however I will try and do more of my own research (struggled so far)

    Regards

    Chris
     
    Posted: Sep 8, 2009 By: Joe E Member since: Oct 24, 2007
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  13. Employment Law Clinic

    Employment Law Clinic Verified Business ✔️

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    What I mean by fudged title has hopefully been expanded on already: is this person truly self-employed, or will the employer/"contractor" relationship mean they are actually employees or workers?

    A useful summary from Mpg, but see below - as what the tribunals think & the Revenue think can be different.

    If self-employed, yes that is more or less right, except you won't be liable for their sick pay either.

    Direct.gov gives a very simple explanation of the difference between workers, employees, and self-employed, but picking up on the window cleaner analogy, if I pay for my windows to be cleaned, my window cleaner doesn't have to do it themself - they could send someone else to do it. If you are hiring this specific person, you are more likely to find they are employees, so impossible to answer properly until we determine their true work status - which is not straightforward in itself, and as Direct.gov mentions, Revenue & Customs & Employment Law have different rules & criteria on this from the employment courts.

    I'm not able to give tax advice, but if I know enough about the employment relationship, I will try to provide employment law advice. Not going off the thread, but simply trying to get the facts necessary to give you the best advice we can.


    Karl Limpert
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2009
    Posted: Sep 8, 2009 By: Employment Law Clinic Member since: Aug 10, 2009
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  14. Lime One

    Lime One UKBF Legend

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    A can of worms question, as usual, for all the tax and employment law reasons given in previous posting. Of course the Inland Revenue love these sort of cases and get involved, so a staight answer is always tempered with lots of advice on why it's a problem.

    If they are truly self employed, and you can meet the requirements outlined here :http://www.enterprisenation.com/detail/I_need_people_but_don't_want_employees/2723/1.aspx

    then there is no responsibility from you for holiday pay or sickness pay including SSP. In fact the payment of SSP is an indicator that they are an employee.

    Ideally you would only sub contract with small limited companies as they carry the tax burden rather than you. Happy to talk you through this if, after all this introspection you still have the stomach for such an arrangement :)
     
    Posted: Sep 8, 2009 By: Lime One Member since: Apr 26, 2008
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  15. MrPAYE

    MrPAYE UKBF Ace

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    Whilst not wishing to add to the employed v self employed issue because a) we've done this to death on the forum of late and b) it isn't really the question asked (although it is very strongly related), all I will say is that this type of statement is music to HMRC's ears - their mantra is after all "employment status is not a matter of choice". You also said that he isn't going to be doing anything different that an employee would do (other than not being there continuously) - again, exactly what HMRC is hoping to hear/establish.

    Enough from me though;)
     
    Posted: Sep 8, 2009 By: MrPAYE Member since: Apr 3, 2009
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