sack on the spot

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cerrito

Free Member
Jun 19, 2013
12
7
Camden, London
How can I go about this?

I have worked for this company for 4 years.

On the 20th of May I had a meeting with my manager and the son of the director, the meeting was about my performance. This according to me went all well and was praised (This man has turn up to work about 20 times in the last 4 yrs. and when in office, he sleeps most of the time), he said that they just wanted me to be more proactive.

On the 10 of June, I was called to help my manager to solve a problem related to invoices, her initial statements was that someone in our sister company had made a real mess of it.

Eventually, it all went wrong and I was being accused of this being my entire fault. I could not understand how or why but when I tried to speak to my manager and get it clear in my head what went wrong; she would just shout at me and said it was my entire fault and I could not understand simple orders.

Eventually this led to my dismissal on the spot, I become so sick with all this that I had to go to my doctor the following day and she sent me off with a sick not for a month due to stress.

Now, I have called ACAS and they told me to write to my manager and get the dismissal in writing and the reasons.

Then they said I have to appeal and say why.
I might be guilty of something but I don’t know exactly of what. I also feel that the system in place didn’t work to detect this type of problem with invoicing otherwise why it took a year to be found out (two accountants were involved with the invoicing control) in

The job is quite complex and it changes from one day to another, the manager has hardly been there in the last two years and when she is there she can spends up to 2 hrs. on the phone talking to family members, leaving the office from 2 to 4 hrs at a time to sort out family issues. My colleague and I got very frustrated because we can’t get assistance when needed and we can’t give a step with out her approving.

I am working my case on the basis that up to the 20th of May, I was not given any indication that my job was wrong.
I have not given proof or explained how my job was wrong. I know now what went wrong but I don’t have a proof from my manager that it was my fault or entirely my fault.

I am worried because I know my manager quite well and when she gets vengeful she can be the worst it can be. A year ago, she had a problem with an Architect and all I could hear from her was how she was going to destroy him and make sure he never got a job again, she was going to find a way to remove him from the architect registry. Eventually she couldn’t do anything and had to pay his money.

I would appreciate any help I can get on how to proceed or if you think I might have some chances of success if I do this on my own or do I definitely need a layer because I don't have money and I am not a member of any union.

Thanks
 

MikeJ

Free Member
Jan 15, 2008
6,161
1,829
Edinburgh
Do what ACAS say. Get it in writing.

If what you've said is accurate, then there's no cause for instant dismissal. Go find a no-fee no win lawyer. However, you'll need the letter from the company first. I'd write to them stating your view of the dismissal (just that you were dismissed on that date) and you require confirmation in writing.
 
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cerrito

Free Member
Jun 19, 2013
12
7
Camden, London
Do what ACAS say. Get it in writing.

If what you've said is accurate, then there's no cause for instant dismissal. Go find a no-fee no win lawyer. However, you'll need the letter from the company first. I'd write to them stating your view of the dismissal (just that you were dismissed on that date) and you require confirmation in writing.

Mike, thanks for this.

I have sent my letter today. just saying that I need the letter for my dismissal and reasons for it and I will need this sent to me within 14 days from todays date.
ACAS said I have to then reply and say I appeal. Then arrange for a meeting and take a colleague with me but he will not want to get involve because he is scare that later she might take it against him and I understand.
I am on my own on this and I am quite scared.
 
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Merchant UK

Free Member
Aug 15, 2010
2,421
592
www.welderfab.co.uk
Mike, thanks for this.

I have sent my letter today. just saying that I need the letter for my dismissal and reasons for it and I will need this sent to me within 14 days from todays date.
ACAS said I have to then reply and say I appeal. Then arrange for a meeting and take a colleague with me but he will not want to get involve because he is scare that later she might take it against him and I understand.
I am on my own on this and I am quite scared.

Don't be scared, ACAS are pretty good when dealing with rogue cases like this. From what you say they have dismissed you wrongly and unfairly, so you need to face that you may, most probably have very little chance of working for that company again, but on the brighter side you could walk away with a few grand in your pocket, so all is not lost.

Just keep copies of all your letters that you send them and any letters that you get back. Phone Acas and ask their advice if there has been any major changes or improvements. Either way from what you say you have a great case for unfair dismissal.

if you need to chat about it or are getting stressed, ask in here, where all here to help where we can ;)

Take care now
 
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cerrito

Free Member
Jun 19, 2013
12
7
Camden, London
Hi,
I am coming back regarding this sacking issue.
As I mention on my last post, I wrote to my manager and asked for the official dismissal letter and reasons for dismissal.
She call me and they send me a letter denying she sacked me, writing the sweetest letter ever, saying they were shocked to know I believed I was dismissed.
I know from the letter that she was trying to cover her trucks. They then asked me to come to the office for a meeting to discuss why I was stressed as I have sent a sick note stating stress at work and given one month sick by doctor.
I went to the meeting as advice by ACAS but I was told it was only her and the son of the director; when I went into the meeting there was a man who didn't have ID and said he was taking notes, eventually at the end of the meeting it came clear to me he was being paid by her and he was a HR freelance.

When he asked to describe why I was stressed, I said it was to do with the shouting and the abuse I have been receiving from her. They then began to said that they thought it was to do with my performance, that I failed to pass invoices on time and that they lost the credit facilities from a company because I fail to pass an invoice, that I didn't know how to add percentages to the documents and so on.
I know that I did fail at times to pass invoices right on the day, if I didn't pass one on time, the accountant will bring this to my attention and passed straight away, It is a lie that I don't know how to add % on invoices and any how, she always insisted in checking the invoice after i done them.
I know that the company who stop the credit facilities was due to the fact that we never paid our invoices on time because the company was always holding the money until the last minute and because in one occasion the bank took too long to pay, as it was one too many times this supplier just said that for the next shipment we had to pay in advance.
At the end of the meeting, the HR man suggested to try and settle and go separate ways, I said that in my part that's what I wanted as I was not prepare to go back to the same environment, I said I was going to see my doctor 2 days later and I could get back to them and continue the procedures for conciliation. She didn't wait and the following day I received a letter saying the following.
'' You stated during the meeting that the main cause of stress was the performance issues we have had but you also stated that big part was due to you being shouted at and not given enough direction, including written procedures, in relation to those issues'' ''I completely refute you been shouted at''
No mention of the issue of settlement on the letter, I wrote back to say that I wanted the notes and the name of the man present at the meeting.

She come back with a letter that I don't know how to read, it goes like this:

Without prejudice.

''We confirms that we were advice to do the mutual agreement and now we have written to ACAS to formalise the conciliation''

''I was concerned to ensure that this is definitely what you want to do and this is the route you want to take'' ''I want to state that you are still employed at the company until an agreement has been reached, the notes will be sent to you ones they been type.

My questions for help:
do I have to accept and is it legal for her not to have informed me that this HR man was going to be there with out informing me in advance.

Do I have to accept this notes? what about if he has change the notes to suit their side? in the meeting my first complain was the shouting and abuse but then they said I accepted that It was my performance as the 1st point.

Can I ask for the hand written notes as well as the type note or can I just simply refuse because I was not notified?

Can she get me on the performance as reasons of my stress?

I want her to pay me the time I been sick and at least 4 months salary, as I have now been sent to see a physiologist and counsellor and sick for another month. Is this too much to ask?

Hope to get some replies.
 
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She sacked you, personally I would resign and go to tribunal for constructive dismissal, get legal advice right away and don't be abused by these people. They screwed up they realise they screwed up and now they are trying to get out of it.

get legal advice immediately.
 
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''We confirms that we were advice to do the mutual agreement and now we have written to ACAS to formalise the conciliation''

''I was concerned to ensure that this is definitely what you want to do and this is the route you want to take'' ''I want to state that you are still employed at the company until an agreement has been reached, the notes will be sent to you ones they been type.

My questions for help:
do I have to accept and is it legal for her not to have informed me that this HR man was going to be there with out informing me in advance.

You don’t have to accept this, or any other, offer of settlement, only one you are happy with. You make no mention of the value of settlement: is this included in the letter, and does it fully compensate you for your loss of employment? There’s nothing wrong with having the HR guy there, and not giving you advance notice of this – if you were interested, you could have asked at the start of the meeting.

Do I have to accept this notes? what about if he has change the notes to suit their side? in the meeting my first complain was the shouting and abuse but then they said I accepted that It was my performance as the 1st point.

Can I ask for the hand written notes as well as the type note or can I just simply refuse because I was not notified?
You can ask for the notes, or if you don’t agree with their version, prepare your own copy.
What are you wanting to refuse because you were not notified? If notes, as above; if the settlement offer, you can refuse it, seek to negotiate terms acceptable to you.

Can she get me on the performance as reasons of my stress?

I want her to pay me the time I been sick and at least 4 months salary, as I have now been sent to see a physiologist and counsellor and sick for another month. Is this too much to ask?

She could have a case for capability, arguing you’ve been off sick for four months. It’s not an immediate dismissal case though, so if you both want to part company, this isn’t an issue.

For the time you’ve been sick, you’d be entitled to the same pay as you normally would for sick leave – either SSP, or contractual pay if this is more. If they haven’t paid you anything, but now say you weren’t dismissed, you have the upper-hand, as clearly they were treating you as dismissed, hence not even paying SSP. In that case, you would have an unfair dismissal claim, so use that to argue a decent settlement.


Karl Limpert
 
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Take them to the absolute cleaners. Get everything in clear chronological order, keep copies of everything and leave emotion out of it (where possible)

She is clearly in the wrong, why did they send you home then? Had you done such a great job that she was shouting at you with glee and decided to give you the rest of the day off?!

Get onto a solicitor and throw the book at them, remain calm and positive, the law is on your side. GOOD LUCK
 
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cerrito

Free Member
Jun 19, 2013
12
7
Camden, London
Hi Again,

This issue has changed.

After I contacted ACAS and my employer called me for a meeting were they offered and I agreed to go to conciliation where both parties agreed to settle before going to court.

Things were going well and both parties came to an agreement of settlement were I requested 4 month salary, they put this down to 3 and I accepted.

We started to work on the legally binding document, while this was happening and ACAS was being very slow to the process, It finally come to a point were the document and agreement was not finalised and ACAS advice was to submit my claim to the employment tribunal before the end of July to avoid me paying the new government fees which I did.

In the main time I started to look for another job immediately knowing that it was going to take some time before I could find a new job.

Yesterday, I finally received the agreement, which I am supposing to sign and send back.

What I find difficult with the agreement.

When I first talk to ACAS, I was told that ACAS drafts the agreement but the one I received has been drafted by my employer’s solicitors not by ACAS and this is all about what they want from me. Yes they are offering to payment the compensation but they are saying that as from the 2nd of August I am not employ by the company and this is fine by me. However, the agreement states that on the day I sign the agreement ''today'' I should not be working for anyone else or that I should not be employed in the near future.

This last part is what I find difficult to digest because lets say I find a job in September dose that mean I can’t accept this job? What dose in the near future mean? To me it can mean in a week time, months or year time.

And if I accept this position can they take me to court or request me to give back the money they paid me and fine me for bridge of contract?

All other parts of this document is practically a gaging order where they are saying that I am not allow to speak to any one not even prospective employers about why I left my previous job or discuss the matter with any one else apart from my family. The reference letter I requested just estates that I work for them from 2009 to now and my position attach to this there is a NOTE saying that they company policy is not to give a personal view of the persons character and or performance and it is up to the new employer to assess the situation and they can not be hold responsible for the performance of the person.

Before all this I did find a solicitor but unfortunately the solicitors were very expensive and things were going well at the time with ACAS.

Appreciate all your comments.
 
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ethical PR

Free Member
Apr 20, 2009
7,486
1,645
London
I would definitely consider engaging an employment lawyer if ACAS aren't able to offer you the type of support you feel you need.

Carl on here for example offers great advice.

I'm sure the benefits you will be able to accrue from any settlement with expert advice will cover any investment you make in getting the right legal advice.
 
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cerrito

Free Member
Jun 19, 2013
12
7
Camden, London
I would definitely consider engaging an employment lawyer if ACAS aren't able to offer you the type of support you feel you need.

Carl on here for example offers great advice.

I'm sure the benefits you will be able to accrue from any settlement with expert advice will cover any investment you make in getting the right legal advice.
ethical PR

Thanks for your comment, I did go to a lawyer initially but this cost me £300 and I honesty don't have this money. I think I might get a new job soon but I am not sure now that the clause on the agreement says I can't get a new job in the near future.
 
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pen2670

Free Member
Mar 1, 2012
419
104
Sounds like your employer is just trying it on.

Why dont you contact acas in the morning and explain that there are several clauses in the document their solicitor has drafted that were not agreed in your settlement meeting?

Not sure on this one, but thought one of the employment specialists on here had said that if the employer wants you to sign a legal document you are entitled to have an independant solicitor look it over for you at their cost. Am sure someone will be along to clarify, but no harm in saying to your employer that you need to be sure what you are signing and would they pay for it to be looked over an explained to you.

Good luck
 
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Newchodge

Business Member
Nov 8, 2012
16,221
4,584
Newcastle
This is supposed to be an agreement. If you do not agree with any of the clauses you need to tell ACAS what you will not accept. In particular you will not accept any clause about your future employment. Just because their solicitor is trying it on it does not mean that you have to accept. This is a first draft, get it amended to what you want it to say.

The gagging order is absolutely standard, however, and I wouldn't bother arguing about it.

The reference is also pretty standard. The fact that it says it is company policy to give this type of reference actually protects you.

Good luck.
 
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ianm10

Free Member
May 7, 2012
72
16
The above is correct, when a Compromise Agreement is written, the employer will cover your solicitor costs. Also, as part of the agreement, get a reference from the company (esp as you have been there 4 years). This is especially required nowadays due to background checks being undertaken by many larger companies for any future positions you may apply.
 
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Newchodge

Business Member
Nov 8, 2012
16,221
4,584
Newcastle
The above is correct, when a Compromise Agreement is written, the employer will cover your solicitor costs. Also, as part of the agreement, get a reference from the company (esp as you have been there 4 years). This is especially required nowadays due to background checks being undertaken by many larger companies for any future positions you may apply.


This is not a compromise agreement, this is a cot3 brokered by ACAS so legal advice is not normally used.

The OP just needs to tell ACAS what she wants taken out before she will accept.
 
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