Please support the Boiler Scrappage scheme petition

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Houses can be upgraded to meet current standards ( almost ).

No need to re-introduce new traditional apprenticeships as they never went away.

The only thing that "went away" was all ( well,not all,but most of ) the manufacturing industries and the millions of apprenticeships that went along with them.



Skyhi2.
 
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I think Mick is not ambitious enough - what about a house scrappage scheme. As most houses were built 100 years ago and would not meet current regulations why not start a campaign to bring every home up to standard?

You could even re-introduce traditional apprenticeships and give a million kids some useful skills. Surely a better use of money than just replacing a few old boilers?

Great idea!

Why should people who buy a house be burdened with the additional cost of keeping that house in good condition and fit for modern life?

Seems unreasonable. They're being forced to pay twice.

We know socialism is bad and this is "reverse socialism" (handouts for those that aren't poor), so it must be good.

We can have a society where a handful of businesses make real money and pay tax while the vast majority of people either work for the government or for businesses that are kept afloat by these tax-funded schemes.

Can't see what's wrong with that.

Steve
 
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Apart from the ecomonics of the scheme, has research been done into whether these boilers really do benefit the environment, taking into account such things as manufacturing and transport costs (enviromental not financial), disposal of the old boiler, etc? There may be an environmental saving or there may not, people seem to concentrate on purely running costs. I suspect the car scrappage scheme was purely for economic resons.
One could argue for similar schemes replacing old energy inefficient fridges, freezers, washing machines, tumble driers, lamps .......... the list could go on and on, but a careful environmental calculation needs to be done first. Maybe this has been done for boilers - I don't know.

The main obstacle would seem to be people not liking what the government tells them to do, irrespective of whether it is good advice or not.

Barrie
 
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Very good thread may i say,very interesting and very informative.

But i have some concerns regarding the reliability of the " new " condensing boilers.

And this is specifically for MickW-

How many new boilers you have supplied have broken down in the first 12/24 months of installation,and how many have needed new boards ?

What i am getting at is that they may be cheaper to install/run Etc,but they do not seem very reliable ?

Yes,before you say it,they will be repaired under warranty,but that is not the point.

My view is,that we still need ( and i think Mick said the technology is tried and tested now,and that may be so ) to do some more QC work on these boilers before even considering a scrappage scheme.

BTW,i did sign the petition,as in principle it`s a good idea.

Skyhi2
I honestly can't say how many boilers need attention in the first 2 years, because, as you say, the manufacturers take care of 'in warranty' work see we don't get to see the figures.

What I can say is this - I don't remember the last time a major brand got a bad name for reliability and, believe me, we would hear and at great length from some of our customers. :)

Years ago, when combination boilers were new, some manufacturers tried to get product into the market before they were properly tested and there were some problems, but we don't hear of similar problems nowadays.

Bear in mind that I'm a merchant not an engineer, so I can really only speak for the feedback I get from manufacturers and customers of boilers that we sell, but the Energy Saving Trust has a good information section where they explain the advantages of replacing old Band G boilers with Band A condensing boilers.
www.energysavingtrust.org.uk

Remember also, that manufacturers are constantly working to improve reliability as it costs them big-time every time they are called out under warranty.

I hope that helps and thanks for your support.
 
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Oh, are my comments "an inconvenient truth"?

(presumably your favourite film)

i.e. that the boiler industry's enthusiasm for this plan isn't because they're all members of Greenpeace, instead it's because this is a scheme that would take money from every taxpayer by force and without their consent and put it in the pockets of the people in the boiler industry?

This is typical Gordon Brown bull****onomics. And, all it'll do it take money from some people and give it to others. It won't make the country richer through some form of "Keynesian alchemy".

Steve
 
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Apart from the ecomonics of the scheme, has research been done into whether these boilers really do benefit the environment, taking into account such things as manufacturing and transport costs (enviromental not financial), disposal of the old boiler, etc? There may be an environmental saving or there may not, people seem to concentrate on purely running costs. I suspect the car scrappage scheme was purely for economic resons.
One could argue for similar schemes replacing old energy inefficient fridges, freezers, washing machines, tumble driers, lamps .......... the list could go on and on, but a careful environmental calculation needs to be done first. Maybe this has been done for boilers - I don't know.

The main obstacle would seem to be people not liking what the government tells them to do, irrespective of whether it is good advice or not.

Barrie
I refer you to my previous post - I can't really say anything else...
I have been trying to find out the 'carbon cost' of manufacturing a new boiler, as a couple of people have mentioned it, and I just can't find any figures.

However, when you consider that the whole purpose of a gas boiler is to burn gas, I think it is safe to assume that the 'carbon cost' in manufacture is negligible compared to the saving over the lifetime of the new boiler.

I have found this, though, on the Energy Saving Trust website:
The savings for the condensing boiler upgrade are for changing from an old G rated boiler to an A rated condensing boiler and a full set of heating controls. Savings shown are approximate and are provided for illustrative purposes only, and are based on a gas heated semi-detached house with 3 bedrooms. Savings assume a gas price of 3.80p/kWh.
They estimate an annual saving of £235 and 1,300kg of CO2 - that's right, 1.3 tonnes of CO2 saved from ONE house.
I think you are right about the car scrappage scheme - there is no guaranteed environmental saving at all.

The British Retail Assc are already calling for government action to encourage the replacement of old household appliances and I'm sure it could also apply to other areas. The thing is, I am doing something about my idea and it is getting a lot of support. Have a look at the website to see who is supporting the campaign. http://reheatbritain.org.uk
 
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Oh, are my comments "an inconvenient truth"?

(presumably your favourite film)

i.e. that the boiler industry's enthusiasm for this plan isn't because they're all members of Greenpeace, instead it's because this is a scheme that would take money from every taxpayer by force and without their consent and put it in the pockets of the people in the boiler industry?

This is typical Gordon Brown bull****onomics. And, all it'll do it take money from some people and give it to others. It won't make the country richer through some form of "Keynesian alchemy".

Steve
Not at all!

I have answered every question or comment as fully and honestly as I can, but you keep saying the same untrue things time after time and I can't be bothered to explain to you again.

Besides Pompey have just won their first match of the season! :D
 
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I have answered every question or comment as fully and honestly as I can, but you keep saying the same untrue things time after time

What's untrue?

I can't be bothered to explain to you again.

I wasn't aware you had explained anything... other than that you believe the goverment is "committed"* to spending some money and that you're determined to get a slice of it.

Steve

* This means nothing. They've been committed to lots of things (e.g. ID cards) and not gone ahead. I don't see why they can't bin this.
 
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aaamusements

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Feb 19, 2008
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I think Mick is not ambitious enough - what about a house scrappage scheme. As most houses were built 100 years ago and would not meet current regulations why not start a campaign to bring every home up to standard?

You could even re-introduce traditional apprenticeships and give a million kids some useful skills. Surely a better use of money than just replacing a few old boilers?

Actually, John Prescott already instigated this when he was underemployed in his "Labour" government non-job. It was known as the Pathfinder Scheme.
Many communities were torn apart in the name of progress, and vast swathes of perfectly good, solid terraced housing in the north was flattened for no visible benefit.

Great post though, it did make me smile!
:D
 
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The Mayor of London is calling for a Boiler Scrappage scheme now, in the draft Air Quality Strategy.

The Committee for Climate Change are calling for 12m boilers to be replaced by 2020 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8300048.stm

Ofgem warns of 60% rise in electricity and gas bills as private sector fails to deliver on security and green commitments. Ofgem article

All good reasons why we are getting massive support for the campaign.

Read about on the campaign website http://reheatbritain.org.uk
 
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Richard Younger-Ross MP has tabled an Early Day Motion in Parliament EDM2076 calling on the government to support the Boiler Scrappage campaign.

I would be grateful if you would take a couple of minutes to ask your MP, via writetothem.com to sign the motion.

Also, if you haven't yet signed the petition, you can read about the campaign and sign here Reheat Britain

Thank you
 
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AdamJ

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Oct 12, 2007
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Tewkesbury
www.hsmc.co.uk
Way back at the beginning of this one post said the average household can save £250 per year by upgrading their boiler. We changed ours last year when the old one finally died and it cost just short of £4K to do, so we need 16 years to make back the cost of installation if we're to use the £250 a year saving as the reason for doing it, which seems pretty much at the normal lifespan of a boiler therefore saying there is a cost saving per year has little actual benefit to the householder.

Also, if someone changes their boiler early (i.e. before its dead) to save on CO2 from reduced emissions from a new boiler, what about the CO2 emissions in making this new boiler from extracting the raw materials, manufacturing and transport? Surely, as has been the case with cars, if you want to do it for purely CO2 emission reasons the best thing is to hang onto your old banger and not upgrade it at all to avoid the manufacturing process?

It sounds nice in a headline, hence I'm sure politicians will jump at it faster than you can say 'extra expenses' but it smells a tad of greenwash.
 
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Duke Fame

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Jan 28, 2008
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Way back at the beginning of this one post said the average household can save £250 per year by upgrading their boiler. We changed ours last year when the old one finally died and it cost just short of £4K to do, so we need 16 years to make back the cost of installation if we're to use the £250 a year saving as the reason for doing it, which seems pretty much at the normal lifespan of a boiler therefore saying there is a cost saving per year has little actual benefit to the householder.

Also, if someone changes their boiler early (i.e. before its dead) to save on CO2 from reduced emissions from a new boiler, what about the CO2 emissions in making this new boiler from extracting the raw materials, manufacturing and transport? Surely, as has been the case with cars, if you want to do it for purely CO2 emission reasons the best thing is to hang onto your old banger and not upgrade it at all to avoid the manufacturing process?

It sounds nice in a headline, hence I'm sure politicians will jump at it faster than you can say 'extra expenses' but it smells a tad of greenwash.


That is quite right, it takes an average mileage driver 7 years to create the CO2 that actually made his car. It's far greener to keep a car for as long a time as possible. If the government actually wanted to be green and not just screw us for more money, they would remove VAT from garage servicing as it would save far more CO2 if we all hade the car's regularly serviced. Furthermore, my car engine could be tuned to send out far less CO2 than it's official reading but there is no incentive to do so becasue by road tax is fixed to the CO2 rating given back in th eday.
 
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That is quite right, it takes an average mileage driver 7 years to create the CO2 that actually made his car. It's far greener to keep a car for as long a time as possible. If the government actually wanted to be green and not just screw us for more money, they would remove VAT from garage servicing as it would save far more CO2 if we all hade the car's regularly serviced. Furthermore, my car engine could be tuned to send out far less CO2 than it's official reading but there is no incentive to do so becasue by road tax is fixed to the CO2 rating given back in th eday.
There was absolutely no guaranteed environmental benefit from the car scrappage scheme - the boiler scrappage scheme is quite different.

The amount of CO2 expended in manufacturing a boiler is minute compared to the annual savings possible - 1.3 tonnes per year saving in a 3 bed semi.
 
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It looks like we have a £300 per boiler scrappage scheme to be announced in the Pre-budget Report tomorrow.

At the moment I am absolutely delighted, but I don't yet have any details of how they think it is going to work. As far as I am concerned, it must benefit small businesses and if it doesn't then the campaign goes on.

So, as of now, we have won - I think! :)
 
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