Please support the Boiler Scrappage scheme petition

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I signed this petition ages ago via twitter.
It is a good idea for most businesses in my industry.
I think you will get some objections from the government because of the warmfront scheme which is in place to achieve the same things that this scheme is. There are 2 warmfront schemes, 1 is a £300 rebate scheme available to all gas safe engineers and another is £2700(think its went up) grant available to a few selected comapnies, some of which are owned by the government (SCAM).
So i imagine the argument will be that the gov't is already doing there bit on this issue.
But from a selfish perspective i think its a top idea:).
Furthermore whoever told you that it would take 300 years to get your money back from a HE boiler is either mad or a cowboy.
New boilers are as efficient as 91% meaning that for every pound you spend only 9 pence is wasted. You old bosch will be between 65-80% meaning that you are wasting 20-25p from every pound.
Also as far as using the same amount of gas thats rubbish as well.
Thermostatic controls however in my opinion are just as effective as saving money as a new boiler as they reduce the amount of unneccessary usage massively if used properly.

I do think tax payers money could be better spent in other areas, but like i say as a business in the heating industry, im all for it.
Thanks for your support.

You say that you think taxpayers money could be better spent in other areas. Don't forget that the government has already committed some of our money to reduce carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. So it has already cost us. They are committed to their targets!

I am saying use some of that to help fund the Scrappage scheme, as the amount of CO2 reduction will be enormous. That is in addition to other benefits like low NOx (pollution is a problem in all big cities, especially London), less energy usage, stimulate our industry and save the householder money on their energy bills.

Anyway, thanks again for your support. We have over 900 signatures now :)
 
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G. Lasagne

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Yeah i totally agree, and i hope you get thousands of sigs and the idea goes ahead, also id like to add its great to have a merchant on the forum, i hope you continue to get involved in discussions.
But i am not pretending that i want this to go ahead for the enviroments sake(although important) i want it to go ahead for my comapnies sake and i suspect if your honest you want it to go ahead for your companies sake also, there's nothing wrong with that either in my opinion.
 
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Of course I would love to sell more boilers, but the whole campaign has got bigger than that now and, as I have already said, the cost of promoting it will far outweigh any extra profit I may get.

I am even more enthusiastic now that the Car Scrappage scheme has been extended. That scheme has absolutely no guaranteed environmental advantage and 80% of cars purchased were manufactured abroad.
Independent article

Spend the money on a Boiler Scrappage scheme and they will still stimulate British industry, ie manufacturers, merchants & installers PLUS do a big favour to the environment as EVERY boiler installed will be guaranteed miles more efficient, use less energy and emit less pollutants than the boiler being removed. Plus, the householder will save money.

No, we don't have the big voice and lobbying power of the car industry, but our campaign is being heard now and is being supported by some real influential Environmentalists, our industry big time and organisations like the Federation of Small Businesses.

That's why it is important to get as many signatures onto the petition as possible as part of the overall campaign to make our voice heard.

It is a good proposal and I believe that we will be heard in the end.

Phew! Rant over! Sorry about that..........
 
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G. Lasagne

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Mar 12, 2008
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Of course I would love to sell more boilers, but the whole campaign has got bigger than that now and, as I have already said, the cost of promoting it will far outweigh any extra profit I may get.

I am even more enthusiastic now that the Car Scrappage scheme has been extended. That scheme has absolutely no guaranteed environmental advantage and 80% of cars purchased were manufactured abroad.
Independent article

Spend the money on a Boiler Scrappage scheme and they will still stimulate British industry, ie manufacturers, merchants & installers PLUS do a big favour to the environment as EVERY boiler installed will be guaranteed miles more efficient, use less energy and emit less pollutants than the boiler being removed. Plus, the householder will save money.

No, we don't have the big voice and lobbying power of the car industry, but our campaign is being heard now and is being supported by some real influential Environmentalists, our industry big time and organisations like the Federation of Small Businesses.

That's why it is important to get as many signatures onto the petition as possible as part of the overall campaign to make our voice heard.

It is a good proposal and I believe that we will be heard in the end.

Phew! Rant over! Sorry about that..........

Here Here ! Mick for PM ;)

Go for it mate, if i can help at my end give me a shout, what merchants do you own?

The way forward is to enrol the help of equally passionate gas fitters, in the form of links on there websites, dropping flyers off at those customers who need a new boiler but cant afford it etc.

There's thousands of installers that would jump at the chance to help out.

An advert in the Gas safe monthly magazine (goes out to every single gas safe registered installer) would make this campaign a HUGE success.

Some free pr in local paper's etc would be pretty easy as well i imagine.
 
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Here Here ! Mick for PM ;)

Go for it mate, if i can help at my end give me a shout, what merchants do you own?

The way forward is to enrol the help of equally passionate gas fitters, in the form of links on there websites, dropping flyers off at those customers who need a new boiler but cant afford it etc.

There's thousands of installers that would jump at the chance to help out.

An advert in the Gas safe monthly magazine (goes out to every single gas safe registered installer) would make this campaign a HUGE success.

Some free pr in local paper's etc would be pretty easy as well i imagine.
Worcester and Baxi Group are very much supporting:
Baxi article
Worcester article

Worcester have an article in Installer Choice which will land on the doormats of 46,000 installers next week.

Vaillant Group are on board, but only seriously from last week, so I don't really know what they are going to do yet.

I have been talking to GasSafe for over two weeks now - I'm waiting for a return phone call from them as I write this.

CIPHE have said they support it and I'm waiting for a quote from them to go on the website.

Luckily, I've got a campaign manager, Sian Berry, who was the Green Party candidate for Mayor of London last year and is a seasoned campaigner. This is pretty much taking all my time at the moment and I would be floundering a bit without her. She looks after the website and is talking to politicians and environmentalists.

If you could put a link to http://reheatbritain.org.uk on your website that would be very useful and a supportive comment and photo to go on our website would be brilliant - the email address is on the contacts page of the website.

I've just sent you a message on Twitter, by the way, to follow me on there and I can bore you a bit more about the Scrappage scheme :)

I'll pm you in a minute with the company website details.
 
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G. Lasagne

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Just looked at your site mick, you have had some pretty influential people sign it, maybe a few pics of your average member of the public might help.
If you want a link/banner on my site then give me a shout.
I dont get thousands of hits but i do get a hundreds and every bit helps:)
Also give this guy a bell hes called daniel and owns the site www.boilerservicecentre.co.uk its number one for "boiler service" im gussing he will be more than happy to support your cause.
 
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G. Lasagne

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Mar 12, 2008
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Worcester and Baxi Group are very much supporting:
Baxi article
Worcester article

Worcester have an article in Installer Choice which will land on the doormats of 46,000 installers next week.

Vaillant Group are on board, but only seriously from last week, so I don't really know what they are going to do yet.

I have been talking to GasSafe for over two weeks now - I'm waiting for a return phone call from them as I write this.

CIPHE have said they support it and I'm waiting for a quote from them to go on the website.

Luckily, I've got a campaign manager, Sian Berry, who was the Green Party candidate for Mayor of London last year and is a seasoned campaigner. This is pretty much taking all my time at the moment and I would be floundering a bit without her. She looks after the website and is talking to politicians and environmentalists.

If you could put a link to http://reheatbritain.org.uk on your website that would be very useful and a supportive comment and photo to go on our website would be brilliant - the email address is on the contacts page of the website.

I've just sent you a message on Twitter, by the way, to follow me on there and I can bore you a bit more about the Scrappage scheme :)

I'll pm you in a minute with the company website details.

It took gas safe 3 weeks to send my id cards out so dont hold your breath.

I will be happy to put the link on my site, and anything else you want me to do.

What you need is a true pro enviroment celebrity and i have thought about the perfect person.

"Deborah meaden" Its got her written all over it, helps the enviroment and businesses.

Maybe worth a email.

Like i say im not sure what i can do being a small heating company but i can defiantely try and help.

Dave
 
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It took gas safe 3 weeks to send my id cards out so dont hold your breath.

I will be happy to put the link on my site, and anything else you want me to do.

What you need is a true pro enviroment celebrity and i have thought about the perfect person.

"Deborah meaden" Its got her written all over it, helps the enviroment and businesses.

Maybe worth a email.

Like i say im not sure what i can do being a small heating company but i can defiantely try and help.

Dave
Thanks Dave, I'll check her out and might take you up on your offer of help if something comes up.

Signatures is what we need - you would be amazed at the number of people who insist it is a brilliant idea and then never get round to actually signing the petition.

Anything you can do to spread the word will be a great help - Twitter, Facebook (we have a group) or anything...

We have a number of high profile people lobbying for us, but signatures is an important part of the campaign.

Mick
 
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I have been trying to find out the 'carbon cost' of manufacturing a new boiler, as a couple of people have mentioned it, and I just can't find any figures.

However, when you consider that the whole purpose of a gas boiler is to burn gas, I think it is safe to assume that the 'carbon cost' in manufacture is negligible compared to the saving over the lifetime of the new boiler.

I have found this, though, on the Energy Saving Trust website:
The savings for the condensing boiler upgrade are for changing from an old G rated boiler to an A rated condensing boiler and a full set of heating controls. Savings shown are approximate and are provided for illustrative purposes only, and are based on a gas heated semi-detached house with 3 bedrooms. Savings assume a gas price of 3.80p/kWh.
They estimate an annual saving of £235 and 1,300kg of CO2 - that's right, 1.3 tonnes of CO2 saved from ONE house.
 
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aaamusements

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An investigation in The Guardian revealed extensive concerns about the reliability of condensing boilers.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2005/apr/09/consumerissues.jobsandmoney2

Other building industry figures have also expressed doubt about the long term reliability of the new boilers, which are complicated and produce highly corrosive condensates.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4026139.stm

But what would I know? I am not trying to flog the things.
;)
True - what would you know? ;)

Your post would be a valid concern if those reports weren't 5 years old !!! The technology is tried and tested now.

Everyone who has read this thread already knows that I run a plumbers merchant. I have already explained that I am not interested in how many extra boilers I can sell because of the Scrappage scheme - it is costing me to promote the campaign, which I am happy to do because it is a good idea.

I'd like to say it was a nice try to discredit it, but it wasn't! :)
 
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aaamusements

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Some of that is fair, but I wonder how many reports we will see in the future, as a huge number of 5 year old boilers come out of warranty and the owners have to fork out £250+ for a new heat exchanger? I dare say that if there is a reliability problem at the moment, the industry will be keeping it to themselves. Great for future business!

Also a subject rarely mentioned is the fact that condensing boilers work most efficiently when the returning water is as cool as possible.
Many existing systems have unsuitably small radiators that do not sufficiently cool the returning water. So that 15% saving figure probably means very little in the real world, if radiators have not been replaced where necessary.

At least the scrap metal industry will be happy though, and will receive a much needed boost.
:)
 
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Some of that is fair, but I wonder how many reports we will see in the future, as a huge number of 5 year old boilers come out of warranty and the owners have to fork out £250+ for a new heat exchanger? I dare say that if there is a reliability problem at the moment, the industry will be keeping it to themselves. Great for future business!

Also a subject rarely mentioned is the fact that condensing boilers work most efficiently when the returning water is as cool as possible.
Many existing systems have unsuitably small radiators that do not sufficiently cool the returning water. So that 15% saving figure probably means very little in the real world, if radiators have not been replaced where necessary.

At least the scrap metal industry will be happy though, and will receive a much needed boost.
:)
I'm sure Worcester or Vaillant, two of the most respected boiler manufacturers in the world, would be able to give you reliability figures on their boilers. Speaking as a merchant, I am not aware of any decrease in reliability in boilers since the onset of Part L building regs ensured that all new installations in UK must use high efficiency condensing boilers.

Actually, the subject of return temperatures affecting the performance of condensing boilers is well known in the industry. It is just as well that all work on gas appliances MUST be carried out by GasSafe registered heating engineers.

Even if, in the worst case, the boiler and radiator sizing was completely wrong, the new boiler will still be miles more efficient, will still use less energy and still emit less NOx into the atmosphere than the boiler it replaces.

I'd stick to selling fruit machines and steer clear of the scrap metal game, if I were you! ;)
 
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aaamusements

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Even if, in the worst case, the boiler and radiator sizing was completely wrong, the new boiler will still be miles more efficient, will still use less energy and still emit less NOx into the atmosphere than the boiler it replaces.

Do you have figures for that, or are you just parroting vague industry propaganda?

And we haven't even touched upon issues of pluming yet...
 
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Do you have figures for that, or are you just parroting vague industry propaganda?

And we haven't even touched upon issues of pluming yet...
Well, there is inevitably a degree of vagueness when comparing a modern boiler with an old boiler.

An old Band G boiler is typically 65% efficient, depending on condition, compared with nearly 80% for a recent non-condensing combi boiler, but a Band A condensing boiler is more than 90%.

Here is DEFRA chart which gives more information. http://www.boilers.org.uk/
 
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Very good thread may i say,very interesting and very informative.

But i have some concerns regarding the reliability of the " new " condensing boilers.

And this is specifically for MickW-

How many new boilers you have supplied have broken down in the first 12/24 months of installation,and how many have needed new boards ?

What i am getting at is that they may be cheaper to install/run Etc,but they do not seem very reliable ?

Yes,before you say it,they will be repaired under warranty,but that is not the point.

My view is,that we still need ( and i think Mick said the technology is tried and tested now,and that may be so ) to do some more QC work on these boilers before even considering a scrappage scheme.

BTW,i did sign the petition,as in principle it`s a good idea.

Skyhi2
 
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BTW,i did sign the petition,as in principle it`s a good idea.

I think Mick is not ambitious enough - what about a house scrappage scheme. As most houses were built 100 years ago and would not meet current regulations why not start a campaign to bring every home up to standard?

You could even re-introduce traditional apprenticeships and give a million kids some useful skills. Surely a better use of money than just replacing a few old boilers?
 
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