Discussion in 'Employment & HR' started by YORKSHIREPUDDING, May 24, 2014.

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  1. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Legend

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    You 'are allowed' to ask any questions you want. You can ask permission to bring any witnesses you want. But most of what you want to do in this post is completely pointless.

    Please read my post again. You need to concentrate on answering the allegations. Questions about how the allegation information was gathered are meaningless in that context. Answer the allegations - that is all you need to do. The more you go on about what questions were asked, or whether they were asked or who else was involved just makes you sound defensive and desperately looking to get the allegations ignored. It does not help your case. Believe me I have represented employees in disciplinary hearings more times than I can remember over a 16 year period. Just answer the allegations.

    And they don't have to prove beyond doubt that you have broken the rules - that is the standard of proof for criminal cases. Your employer merely has to believe on the balance of probabilities and on the basis of credible evidence, that you have broken the rules.
    Posted: Jun 1, 2014 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
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    MY OFFICE IN CHINA Full Member

    5,797 1,370
    As in any meeting, preparation is key.

    Make sure you have representation and your employment contract as well as company rules and regulatons have been thoroughly checked.
    Posted: Jun 1, 2014 By: MY OFFICE IN CHINA Member since: Nov 16, 2011
  3. fisicx

    fisicx Moderator
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    You seem to be on a self-destruction pathway.

    Yes you do.

    One thing you do not seem to have accepted is that they are not your clients. The company can do as they please with THEIR clients.

    The other thing you don't seem to realise is that you may not have a job on Thursday. If they decide to sack you then the money stops. You can claim all sorts of discriminatory things but you won't be earning anything in the meantime.

    This company don't want you to work for them anymore.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2014
    Posted: Jun 1, 2014 By: fisicx Member since: Sep 12, 2006
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  4. GraemeL

    GraemeL Pain in the neck? Verified Business ✔️

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    Are fish sales involved?
    Posted: Jun 1, 2014 By: GraemeL Member since: Sep 7, 2011


    48 2
    Hello everybody, a further update for you !!!!

    Just got back from my solicitors office this morning who has been reviewing all of the evidence the company has posted me and he has blown holes across the whole thing, he says it is a classic witch hunt. I have also requested a lot more information from the company in the way of evidence to back up their accusations. ie: they said I have claimed false mileage and the client has been upset but have not supported this with any instances.

    The main points are that they have broken their own company handbook disciplinary procedures as it clearly states that no disciplinary can take place until a full investigation has taken place and all information and informal discussions has been held with the employee by their supervisor. If discussions and evidence to support the investigation from the employee are insufficient then disciplinary actions will proceed.

    I was called in and just sent home on full pay suspended without any prior knowledge of any investigation having taken place and never had any discussion at all with anybody. The investigation cannot be completed and be final as they have never asked my opinion / thoughts.

    Also the audit has been gathered by one individual over the phone and no countersigned time and date recorded statements from the client have been produced. The audit email also stated that all comments gathered from clients good or bad will be reviewed on a monthly basis by the person carrying out the audit with the individual it concerns. Again nobody said a word to me about this.

    The solicitor has complied me a wonderful response letter and request for lots more information and I feel a whole lot better now as he has shown me many points within their evidence, the audit and how I was suspended where they have broken their own procedures and basically bullied me, made lots of assumptions and based their so called evidence on a one to one phone call that has not been recorded or countersigned by the client.

    I am now sat tight waiting for a response from the company when my letter lands and I will not be sitting any meetings with them this week.

    Last edited: Jun 3, 2014
    Posted: Jun 3, 2014 By: YORKSHIREPUDDING Member since: May 24, 2014
  6. simon field

    simon field Verified Business ✔️

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    Never mind that, how's the search for a new job going?
    Posted: Jun 3, 2014 By: simon field Member since: Feb 4, 2011


    48 2
    Hello Simon,

    I have applied for around 15 jobs so far and already met with one MD to discuss a new role, I am with several recruitment agencies also. I will keep applying but it needs to be right for me and my family. However if I get fired in the next week or so then I need to crack on quickly !!!!!!!!

    Tell you the truth, I love my job and most of the people I work with, 11 years is a long time and I don't want to leave. However I have been treated with no respect and set up with a witch hunt and I cannot understand why, are they selling up ??? 11 years of redundancy is a big pay off ??? god knows but I despise these people who have set me up with a vengeance and I will fight them till the death even if it means the constructive dismissal route. Hopefully I get another job soon then I can get my own back on them. They still haven't sent me my contract so I just need to study that when it comes as to if I am ok to join a competitor or not ???

    My ideal scenario Simon is I get a job with a competitor and I take as much business away as I can.
    Posted: Jun 3, 2014 By: YORKSHIREPUDDING Member since: May 24, 2014
  8. RP Branding

    RP Branding UKBF Contributor

    66 11
    Fingers crossed for you. It's good to see you're a lot more upbeat though.

    I'm definitely a fan of the new job route though regardless of how this pans out. Something is definitely going on there because it just baffles me as to why they'd want to sack a salesman who is performing incredibly.

    There wouldn't be any chance that they stumble across this, would there? I know you haven't given away any names etc but just a thought.
    Posted: Jun 3, 2014 By: RP Branding Member since: May 21, 2014
  9. Chris Ashdown

    Chris Ashdown UKBF Legend

    12,395 2,602
    Sorry to be a bit brutal, but why the hell dont you get off this forum and spend the time writting down all the answers to the questions raised so you are prepared, also select a good companion to support you at the meeting, As for full recorded notes to be taken or get your own recorder and leave it running on the table / desk

    You would be entitled to know what questions were asked , but i would assume anything else would be denied as not really relevant
    Posted: Jun 3, 2014 By: Chris Ashdown Member since: Dec 7, 2003
  10. fisicx

    fisicx Moderator
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    The letter from the lawyer is useful but it's still not going to get you your job back. Why waste your energy fighting this, put all your efforts into finding a new job and worry about compensation/redundancy later on.
    Posted: Jun 3, 2014 By: fisicx Member since: Sep 12, 2006


    48 2
    Dear all,

    My employer has now emailed me to inform me I do not have any contract !!! and they now want my planned meeting this week to be an investigation meeting instead and not the disciplinary hearing as they have previously badged it !!! so basically I have caught them out for not following their own disciplinary rules and they have re badged the meeting.

    Following our investigation chat they have stated they will then decide if any disciplinary action will take place. !!! I am confused as hell now, they have not offered any evidence from all my request neither, they also do not have a disciplinary procedures procedure, everything is In the staff handbook. They have confirmed that there are no notes or client signatures from the audit it was over the phone and typed up immediately via one individual !!!!

    Are they now back tracking or just taking the p*ss out of me even more now !!!
    Posted: Jun 3, 2014 By: YORKSHIREPUDDING Member since: May 24, 2014
  12. fisicx

    fisicx Moderator
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    It does look like they are backtracking but it's still not going result in your keeping your job. You might get some dosh out of it but I'd put money on you being asked to leave. Even if you are back at your desk in a week or two they will make it difficult for your to carry on.

    Just leave and get a new job. You will feel so much better for doing so. Don't let this spoit your life.

    How was Alton Towers?
    Posted: Jun 3, 2014 By: fisicx Member since: Sep 12, 2006
  13. Chris Ashdown

    Chris Ashdown UKBF Legend

    12,395 2,602
    They are obviously now worried about a tribunal as they have broken the law with the lack of contract and broken one at least of acas procedures

    Firing you would be hard under present rules unless you have a number of unreported warnings in the past three years or they have other evidence you have not stated

    Redundancy is out of the question unless the cut their sales team and then sort out a criteria for letting someone go

    New rules and regs they make, may make it hard to continue but plenty of experts on HR who make it their full time job on here who could help rather than a solicitor who may not be up to date
    Posted: Jun 3, 2014 By: Chris Ashdown Member since: Dec 7, 2003

    MY OFFICE IN CHINA Full Member

    5,797 1,370
    I don't thnk this has ever been a case of keeping, or staying in the current job.

    It's more a case of....If you want me gone, please pay for the loyal service I have given to the company to date.

    It's obvious, given the developments, that there is a witch hunt to find reasons to sack the OP.

    I think, perhaps they may think twice on this course of action, given today's instalment.

    The end result will probably be a new job.......................and hopefully, a pay out to leave.

    That would be the best outcome, as it would be impossible to work for a company that you know want you gone.

    It's very sad after 11 years of loyal service to be treated in this way.

    Professional guidance must be the way forward.
    Posted: Jun 3, 2014 By: MY OFFICE IN CHINA Member since: Nov 16, 2011


    48 2
    FRESH UPDATE !!!!!!

    Meeting held with my company, as I thought its a set up but they have zero evidence, its all he said she said rubbish. We went through everything warts and all and at the end they said they want to write me a cheque so I can walk away from the business, I will get a glowing reference but I cannot work with another company doing the same services for the next 6 months or contact any client I have ever spoken / met with for the next 6 months either. They offered me £6k as a starter for ten to shut up sign the agreement and walk, I told them they are a million miles away with this figure as I only know this industry and it may take me 6 months anyway to find another job. Losing my job means losing our home, so the money has to be right and the gamble is I have to find another job before the money from them runs out.

    Has anybody on here had any dealings with this sort of thing, the other option they clearly said is a disciplinary and I am at threat of instant dismissal, I said you have no concrete evidence on me, and they said that they will take that risk but rather would prefer that can we split with no bad feelings and want me to come back to them a figure and they will consider it. They said we would eventually both sides agree on a figure.

    I earn £37k basic per year and have a fully expensed company car, I take home in my pocket just over £2k per month so what figure do you think I should ask for and they warned me it must be reasonable.

    If I take them to the tribunal and won what amount of money would I get anyway ???

    How much will it cost them to go to the tribunal if I try and do them that way ??? plus I will make them bring all the clients in as witnesses also.

    Should I ask for say £12k because that means I cannot work within the industry for 6 months as per the agreement ??????? I earn just over £2k a month in my pocket take home.
    Posted: Jun 7, 2014 By: YORKSHIREPUDDING Member since: May 24, 2014
  16. Mpg

    Mpg UKBF Legend

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    This stinks.

    If you have that offer in writing surely thats enough to take to a tribunal.
    Posted: Jun 7, 2014 By: Mpg Member since: Aug 18, 2009
  17. fisicx

    fisicx Moderator
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    As I said before, you are never going to work for them again so all you are negotiating now it the terms.

    Ask for £15k and settle for £12.

    I wouldn't go down the tribunal route, you may win but end up unemployable.
    Posted: Jun 7, 2014 By: fisicx Member since: Sep 12, 2006
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  18. Merchant UK

    Merchant UK Verified Business ✔️

    2,419 593
    Yes i would agree with this ask them to put it all down in writing and then let someone professional look at what they can do for you if anything, In the mean time get looking for another job.

    To be honest if you put enough effort in looking for another job as you've put trying to hold onto this one, it cant be that hard.
    Posted: Jun 7, 2014 By: Merchant UK Member since: Aug 15, 2010
  19. Merchant UK

    Merchant UK Verified Business ✔️

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    I wouldn't go as low as that lol :D
    Posted: Jun 7, 2014 By: Merchant UK Member since: Aug 15, 2010
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  20. Jeff FV

    Jeff FV UKBF Legend

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    You need a minimum of £12K - based on the assumption that you can't work for 6 months (OK - you could move into a different sector, but that's not the point), plus you want a bit of compo for being buggered around, so I'd say ask for £18K - telling them that gives you 3 months to get a job after the 6 month forbidden period - and settle for £15. Give them reasons for your figures, rather than just plucking numbers out of the air.

    I know you are not being made redundant, but you can use this site to calculate what your minimum redundancy payment would be :

    And you need to get this

    absolutely pinned down before you sign anything - get them to put in writing what that actually means.

    You will also need independent legal advice before signing any compo. agreement. If you are not in a union, ask your employer to pay for this.

    A year ago, I was made redundant. It was an acrimonious redundancy, that I contested. It was a dreadful time in my life as, like you, I found myself starring into the abyss with a mortgage, 2 children etc. Now,one year on, I'm so much happier. I easily found re-employment, I'm now working for a much, much better co., I earn nearly as much as I did before my redundancy, in 3 months time I will be earning more than I was pre-redundnacy and I still have a chunk of cash in the bank (not massive, but a nice cushion.)

    I fully empathise and sympathise with your plight, but I'm sure that this time next year you'll look back and think that it was the best thing that ever happened to you (I still haven't forgiven them, mind!)

    Best of luck

    Posted: Jun 7, 2014 By: Jeff FV Member since: Jan 10, 2009
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