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Moving staff from self employed to employed

Discussion in 'Employment & HR' started by Redd, Feb 28, 2018.

  1. Redd

    Redd UKBF Regular Free Member

    123 9
    guys I already know this and happen to agree with it? tell us something we dont know, I am trying to find a solution to enable me to provide 3 families with full time work, regular pay, holiday pay and entitlements without crippling my business.....if you can't help with this then your apparent know all attitudes 9which I already know) are pointless.
     
    Posted: Feb 28, 2018 By: Redd Member since: May 4, 2013
    #21
  2. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

    7,421 776
    Gotta love how its seen as scaremongering.
    The OP should be afraid. The cost of not doing things right can be considerably higher than doing things right.
     
    Posted: Feb 28, 2018 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
    #22
  3. STDFR33

    STDFR33 UKBF Big Shot Free Member

    3,517 854
    Lol.
     
    Posted: Feb 28, 2018 By: STDFR33 Member since: Aug 7, 2016
    #23
  4. STDFR33

    STDFR33 UKBF Big Shot Free Member

    3,517 854
    It's seen as scaremongering by the OP because they expected someone to come along with a magic wand that made their business model suddenly viable.

    Something in their business model needs to give, but that's not the answer they were looking for.
     
    Posted: Feb 28, 2018 By: STDFR33 Member since: Aug 7, 2016
    #24
  5. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

    8,978 2,277
    Without knowing the detail of your business, your option would appear to be to reconsider your pricing structure.
     
    Posted: Feb 28, 2018 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
    #25
  6. Redd

    Redd UKBF Regular Free Member

    123 9
    thats not a solution as it causes another problem. in my industry its littered with cowboys, many of whom dont pay any taxes at all, we currently pay cis/vat/paye/corporation and dividends taxes. were already way higher than our competition due to trying to do things properly and this really would be the final thing to sort and enable me to use the same subbies as employees all year round
     
    Posted: Feb 28, 2018 By: Redd Member since: May 4, 2013
    #26
  7. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

    7,421 776
    The best thing to do now is probably sit down with a professional and go over the employment status of your staff. Be very sure you have it right and you may well have to revisit the situation over time as government is currently looking at what is an employee and may change things over time too.

    If that means you have to change how you work or how many staff you have then so be it. You cannot mess about with employment status. Be sure.
     
    Posted: Feb 28, 2018 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
    #27
  8. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

    7,421 776
    Yes, this forum doesn't have a reputation for giving the answer people want. What they need, yes. What they want, generally not.
    I'm sure there are forums that will provide that service but they won't be helping the OP.
     
    Posted: Feb 28, 2018 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
    #28
  9. STDFR33

    STDFR33 UKBF Big Shot Free Member

    3,517 854
    A tax of success.
     
    Posted: Feb 28, 2018 By: STDFR33 Member since: Aug 7, 2016
    #29
  10. Redd

    Redd UKBF Regular Free Member

    123 9
    I'm merely looking at a solution? do I insist they take public holidays, do I cut there hours, do I implement a bonus structure, a performance structure, a benefit scheme such as Asda vouchers for performance, fuel cards, anything to lesson there wages to cover at least £1500 per person to cover the extra holidays....

    Perhaps I never conveyed this correctly at the beginning, but this is the info/advice I was hoping the "professionals" on here could provide.

    For the record my business model is fine, and I could easily afford to do this however I'd save fortunes by using sub contractors on a loop basis as I currently do however theres two particular teams who have families and would love to work for me full time who I would really like to help for them and their families but struggling to find a way to do this that doesn't affect me too much, happy to take a hit but not to that extent.

    Hope thats clears things up. any advice on the avbove would be gratefully accepted. I am well aware of the implications of having full time sub contractors and well aware of the penalties should HMRC deem them to be full time which none other than one actually are.
     
    Posted: Feb 28, 2018 By: Redd Member since: May 4, 2013
    #30
  11. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

    7,421 776
    And will they sign a contract if you cut their hours?

    Not sure how bonus, performance or vouchers allows you to cut their wages. Use the money you'd use for those for wages instead?

    Only some on here are professionals in employment, the rest of us likely come across the situation a time or two or ten.
     
    Posted: Feb 28, 2018 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
    #31
  12. Redd

    Redd UKBF Regular Free Member

    123 9
    I'm not sure, at present they pretty much are getting it all but I'm aware I can't continue like this, HMRC won't accept it if it continues for any period, was thinking of performance bonus paid at intervals or vouchers paid on performance to "top up wages"

    they would perhaps accept £400 if they got a quarterly bonus of some sort
     
    Posted: Feb 28, 2018 By: Redd Member since: May 4, 2013
    #32
  13. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

    7,421 776
    The wage bill per quarter would be the same?
     
    Posted: Feb 28, 2018 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
    #33
  14. kulture

    kulture UKBF Legend Staff Member

    7,559 2,057
    It really is simple. You have to adhere to the law. So either you look at when you hire them and how much you use them and insist that they work elsewhere whenever necessary to avoid them becoming employees by default OR you sit down with them and negotiate a pay package with them that you can afford and they can agree to.
    They get continuity and assured income, you get continuity and assured workers. This has a cost for both. They cannot expect to get the same hourly rate as self employed and you have to pay holidays, offer a pension and contribute and NI etc. You have to pay AT LEAT the minimum wage.
    Now your holiday pay rate has to be the average of the pay in the last 12 weeks. You have to give the mandatory 5.6 weeks holiday. YOU can choose when the holiday is taken, for example you can insist it is taken on bank holidays and over christmas, or only in January and February, but then can choose not to sign such a contract.
     
    Posted: Feb 28, 2018 By: kulture Member since: Aug 11, 2007
    #34
  15. Redd

    Redd UKBF Regular Free Member

    123 9
    Thanks Kulture. yeah I have spent yesterday looking into it and there is no other way, thanks for other advice too and apologies if I got narky. just seems I am trying to do right thing but being penalised at same time. thanks for your help, I'll try negotiate a lesser weekly package.
     
    Posted: Mar 1, 2018 By: Redd Member since: May 4, 2013
    #35
  16. Redd

    Redd UKBF Regular Free Member

    123 9
    anyone know the rights to days off with rain and snow? we are rained/snowed off approx 8-10 days per year, can this be used as holidays?
     
    Posted: Mar 1, 2018 By: Redd Member since: May 4, 2013
    #36
  17. Chris Ashdown

    Chris Ashdown UKBF Legend Free Member

    9,219 1,873
    I think you are looking at it the wrong way about hiring them

    The proposition to them is a lower pay per week but full of added features like paid holiday, sick pay and pension, you do the sums and come up with a salary you can afford

    If you cannot afford to pay them at the rate required to get them to join you then either find someone who will do it for the money or put your rates up

    The HMRC question has been answered expertly by others
     
    Posted: Mar 1, 2018 By: Chris Ashdown Member since: Dec 7, 2003
    #37
  18. Redd

    Redd UKBF Regular Free Member

    123 9
    thanks Chris, as mentioned earlier I do everything I can by the correct books, 90% of my competitors do not therefore I am already 30-40% more expensive! putting rates up is going to cause problems, I would happily pay the guys an amount for holidays but £500 pw x 4 fitters and 3 labourers for 6 weeks is just not possible! is there a set amount of time sub contractors can work for you before HMRC deem them employees?
     
    Posted: Mar 1, 2018 By: Redd Member since: May 4, 2013
    #38
  19. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

    8,978 2,277
    No. There status is decided by their relationship to you, not the length of time they have been with you. If HMRC deem them to be employees, they were employees from day one. If they deem them not to be employees, they can sub with you for 95 years.
     
    Posted: Mar 1, 2018 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
    #39
  20. Redd

    Redd UKBF Regular Free Member

    123 9
    thanks Cyndy, should HMRC deem they have been is there a rebate required on this or a case of them instructing me to employ them?
     
    Posted: Mar 1, 2018 By: Redd Member since: May 4, 2013
    #40