[Moved posts] Moderation views

Discussion in 'Feedback & Help' started by internetspaceships, Nov 21, 2012.

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  1. OldWelshGuy

    OldWelshGuy UKBF Legend Staff Member

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    There was no phsychology involved. Think what you what to think, I have said all I am willing to say on the matter, I suggest you direct your question at Henry.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: OldWelshGuy Member since: Jun 12, 2008
    #41
  2. OldWelshGuy

    OldWelshGuy UKBF Legend Staff Member

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    Personally I think we are getting very close to the point where there is little point in continuing the debate as it is being turned into an us and them Mexican stand-off again, the opportunity for moving things forward is being lost I feel, which is very sad.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: OldWelshGuy Member since: Jun 12, 2008
    #42
  3. openmind

    openmind UKBF Big Shot Full Member - Verified Business

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    And unfortunately somewhat unsurprising :(
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: openmind Member since: Sep 6, 2005
    #43
  4. OldWelshGuy

    OldWelshGuy UKBF Legend Staff Member

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    So there you have it then, end of 'open discussion' . What a shame.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: OldWelshGuy Member since: Jun 12, 2008
    #44
  5. OldWelshGuy

    OldWelshGuy UKBF Legend Staff Member

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    As I said, you are free to think what you think. I see this debate going nowhere so have better things to. As you said, if people don't wish to be involved in a thread they don't have to' that is me as of now.

    And as I said previously I think it is a real shame, a wasted opportunity.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2012
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: OldWelshGuy Member since: Jun 12, 2008
    #45
  6. Faevilangel

    Faevilangel Website Critic Full Member

    7,564 2,405
    There no point in deliberating the moderation decisions as it will just create a 'why isn't xxx banned, I was for the Same offence.' Etc.

    If you want something then debate the rules, but IMHO they are more than fair, and if you break them, you know the outcome.

    Finally being rude to someone isn't nice and will get you moderated.

    Obey the rules and you won't need to speak out against the moderation.

    The forum doesn't need people who just want to be rude to those they think are below them. Treat others how you would like to be treated.

    Sent from my HTC Desire using UK Business Forums
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: Faevilangel Member since: Jun 29, 2009
    #46
  7. Matt1959

    Matt1959 UKBF Legend Free Member

    6,295 1,226
    your probation periods over then;) there was no need to say all that - its all been said already so why labour it:| are you guys aware of how you come across?
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: Matt1959 Member since: Sep 8, 2006
    #47
  8. openmind

    openmind UKBF Big Shot Full Member - Verified Business

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    @this and that - I'll make it simple for you then. The idea of an open forum was mooted and I was actually for the idea but a decision was made to not go with it.

    Did I chuck my toys? Did I stamp my feet and demand to be heard? Nope as I had made my point and on that subject it was not agreed with. That's life....

    What is irritating though is an attempt has been made to encourage an open debate but it is getting derailed. This is not just frustrating for those involved but detracts from the point of the discussion.

    I've always said it as I see it and that's as either a member or a mod.

    So.....

    Going back to the original question, what would you like to see done aside from an open forum area which as we know isn't going to happen?
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: openmind Member since: Sep 6, 2005
    #48
  9. openmind

    openmind UKBF Big Shot Full Member - Verified Business

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    Well me for one. First im a member of the forum and second im a mod and my personal opinion was that the thread was being derailed.

    To answer your question, that is unlikely to happen for reasons that have already been discussed at great length elsewhere on both the feedback forum and full members area. Personally im not bothered either way but unfortunately those threads often went beyond mere debate.

    So, anything else you would like to see changed? Preferably something that's actually possible ;)
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: openmind Member since: Sep 6, 2005
    #49
  10. openmind

    openmind UKBF Big Shot Full Member - Verified Business

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    There was two separate threads, one that was started by a member in the full members area and one in the feedback forum. Nothing being hidden. Search and you will find (no pun intended)
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: openmind Member since: Sep 6, 2005
    #50
  11. internetspaceships

    internetspaceships Banned Full Member

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    Purely to illustrate the point I've been banging on about for months about useful threads, potential stickies, and information, I've created this.

    Not looking for any pats on the back- I'm trying to illustrate the kind of this I personally believe we should be doing for our members.

    http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=278805
     
    Posted: Nov 23, 2012 By: internetspaceships Member since: Sep 7, 2009
    #51
  12. Henry Osadzinski

    Henry Osadzinski UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    2,459 1,135
    Absolutely agree and thanks for taking the time to put it together. We've had some issues around the rules re: blogs and articles (it's tricky on the current forum platform as the blog service is underused and a little out of the way) but there's no reason to hold back content like this, especially if it helps people and spurs on some real business discussion.
     
    Posted: Nov 23, 2012 By: Henry Osadzinski Member since: Aug 30, 2011
    #52
  13. Steve Sellers

    Steve Sellers UKBF Big Shot Full Member - Verified Business

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    Wow, wish I had seen this the other day. Just thought I would add my two penneth in, but before I do I would like to say all of the below is not personal, and is purely based on my own opinions and observations.


    This simply isn't true. The rules are not the problem, the blatant(or apparently blatant) misapplication, and inconsistency in enforcing the rules is the problem. Until you have an open system of warnings etc, then this accusation will always be thrown.

    Now the inconsistencies, I can give several specific examples, but it would result in you banning me for discussing a moderation decision in public - that rule is in place to for one reason and one reason only - to stop challenges.

    <deleted example before posting despite not naming names, and despite no criticism because I will be banned>

    Until the warning system is transparent nobody knows you are applying the rules fairly and consistently.

    My other concern is the language used by the Mods. "Personal attack", it's so melodramatic. This is an internet forum, short of out and out abuse the phrase personal attack is OTT. A personal attack would be to knock on my neighbours door and scream abuse at them or give them a swift jab to the chops. Is suggesting somebody is being silly, for example, a personal attack? No. And it's silly to suggest it is. We are a forum of business people, not mamby pamby left wing social worker hippies.


    Simply not the case. It's palpable for all to see. How is questioning a moderation decision in public a personal attack? It isn't, yet this is prevented - therefore we are gagged(without mentioning the religious topics ban)

    Agree. I wouldn't want to be a mod that's for sure. Most of the time you are damned if you don't and damned if you do.

    Spot on.


    Spot on.

    <insert personal attack of your choice here> :p

    It worked with me, time out, whats time out? Please ban me if you even see me browsing that troll honey pot! Any chance of some statistics on how many bans and infractions are given in time out compared to other forums?

    I would also like to add that I know you mods do have an area where you can talk about us members openly and where personal attacks may or may not happen e.g. you discuss what a person adds to the community and whether or not they should be banned. How about opening up those threads to the members involved, I know if one was to put a Data Protection request in you would have to grant access, so why not make it open. I would like to know what part certain mods have played, what they have to say about me and whether or not there is an axe to grind.
     
    Posted: Nov 23, 2012 By: Steve Sellers Member since: Aug 7, 2011
    #53
  14. internetspaceships

    internetspaceships Banned Full Member

    6,981 2,329
    "Troll honey pot???"


    Haha that's brilliant- Henry can we rename Time Out please?
     
    Posted: Nov 23, 2012 By: internetspaceships Member since: Sep 7, 2009
    #54
  15. Steve Sellers

    Steve Sellers UKBF Big Shot Full Member - Verified Business

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    Was going to says something along the lines of "like flys around......", but thought better of it! :p
     
    Posted: Nov 23, 2012 By: Steve Sellers Member since: Aug 7, 2011
    #55
  16. Tin

    Tin Just an SEO Staff Member

    5,929 1,644
    My whole point is that no one is going to get banned simply for being blunt. It's cumulative and we try to work with each member to rectify the situation way before it gets to the banning stage. There is not one established member who has been shown the door without a very long process of warnings and correspondence to try to resolve things. There is not a mod on the team that relishes this side of things. Yes, you're going to get inconsistencies but they're only marginal and if the situation gets crucial it is often thrown to other mods or Henry to check. Having said all that, if a member feels that they've been mistreated, then the issue can be quickly esculated to Henry who can and will override a decision if he feels that it was wrong.

    This is completely wrong so I guess we're going to have to agree to differ on this one. The only reason we have a rule to not discuss specific moderation publicly is to protect the member concerned.

    For what it is worth I would welcome making the moderation actions transparent for all to see, it would make our life much easier and might make members think twice before acquiring a trail of warnings and strikes and would hopefully stop some of the tirades of abuse that we have to put up with. I've nothing to hide and I don't believe any of the mods do.

    Also, as mentioned above, if you feel that a moderator action was unfair in any way, then you have every right to take it to Henry or another Sift employee, it will definitely be investigated and if found to be wrong will be overturned.

    Finally, no you won't get a ban for posts about moderation, the worst you'd get is a strike but I'd be more inclined to give just a warning. It would only be if you had two active strikes that your account would be banned. And that's another reason why, in some instances a warning will be issued, so as to avoid a ban. You see the ability to bend the rules slightly can and frequently does, work in a members favour.

    Whilst it's not transparent to all members it is completely transparent to all moderators, Sift admins and also the member who's on the receiving end of moderation too. One of the big benefits of a much larger moderation team is a broader cross section of opinion which means that where there is a controversial moderator decision to be made, personal differences are prevented from coming into it.

    It is also a bit melodramatic to suggest that you will get a ban for speaking bluntly or for discussing moderating actions. However the ethos of these forums is for people to communicate freely and without feeling put down or personally abused in any way. Yes we all have a different sensitive threshold but that just has to be respected.

    I don't have any actual figures but speaking from experience I'd say that more infractions are given on the other forums than Troll Honey Pot. The main reason for that is that we moderate Troll Honey Pot more loosely.
     
    Posted: Nov 23, 2012 By: Tin Member since: Nov 14, 2005
    #56
  17. internetspaceships

    internetspaceships Banned Full Member

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    *whispers to Steve* He's calling it Troll honey Pot. *winks*
     
    Posted: Nov 23, 2012 By: internetspaceships Member since: Sep 7, 2009
    #57
  18. Steve Sellers

    Steve Sellers UKBF Big Shot Full Member - Verified Business

    4,052 1,210
    That Sir is a palpable nonsense! I have discussed a mod decision regarding me previously and received an infraction! How is that protecting me? Im a big boy(don't believe the false rumours ;)), I really don't see how it will protect me.

    Fair do's. :)

    True.

    This is probably true, but if a minor infraction pushes a member over the edge so a ban ensues, it may as well be a straight ban. I accept though, that there has to be a point at which you say is enough is enough.

    We know the rules are bent for some members. In fairness they probably have in my favour at times. :) However maybe for some more than others.

    The problem is that this forum has real world people. And real world people can be rude, and even abusive. I have to cope with plenty of clients that I would deem rude, but I smile and think of the money. There are far too many sensitive people on here, but there is a big difference between the members who disagree with others and their tone is unrefined and those who only frequent this forum to annoy, abuse, scam or troll.

    But the religion threads were in time out and several mods stated one of the reasons religious talk is banned is because they complained of many posts they had to delete, and how many infractions/bans were handed out(all in time out). Speaking from my own experience I think the vast majority of infractions I have received have come in time out.

    By the way Ray, I will stress again that you mods have a hard job. You will never keep everyone happy all of the time and that includes me. I have previously had cause to complain about a member making libellous comments(not ones I could laugh off as a joke, but comments that could be genuinely damaging to my business) and you dealt with it swiftly - thank you.
     
    Posted: Nov 23, 2012 By: Steve Sellers Member since: Aug 7, 2011
    #58
  19. OldWelshGuy

    OldWelshGuy UKBF Legend Staff Member

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    Steve, here is the truth, people who stand side by side in some threads are the very people reporting each other in time out over religion. it was nothing for us to have to deal with dozens (and I mean that literally) of reported postts in an hour as a result of God based threads in TO.

    When Ray said less infractions he was spot on due to the fact that time out isn't spidered so can't be found on search engines. BUT and this is a HUGE but, we were getting to the stage where we issued warning after warning after warning. e.g. one member had THIRTEEN warnings before their account was suspended.

    We have active members now who have well into double figure warnings. I have had to contact the police because I got a phone call from somone I issued an infraction to, who told me he was coming down to burn my house down with me and my family in it.

    My site has been attacked as a result of taking moderating action. I have had libelous posts posted on websites as a result of being a mod here and dealing with unnacceptable behaviour.

    Finally with regards being offended by the term 'personal attacks' this is the phrase used as that is what is in the rules. You honestly would not believe the abuse we get from members who have been issued a warning or infraction. they go to the rules, can't find the exact term, then send a disgusting rant PM claiming persecution etc. Now as a legal guy, I am sure you of all people understand the need to use the correct terminology, so that is why we use the term 'personal attack' it is so that it describes exactly that it is an attack against another person, or individual. If you want to come up with a different term then I am sure, provided it covers us legally (because yes mods have also been threatened with legal action for defamation as a result of a member being banned showing up as banned') then it might well be adopted :)

    Steve you and I have always been stright with each other, and honestly there are many reasons that things are not discussed openly, ray saus it is to protect the member, and in a way that is true, but it also protects the Mod, and the forum in general.

    As I said previously, this is an open and frank discussion, we all make mistakes, and we genuinely do all we can (for genuine members ) to prevent them from being banned.

    We pioneered a short sharp ban to allow members to go away, calm down and come back with a clear mind. I have overstepped the mark once or twice and simply turned a members access off for the night as they are on 2 strikes and refusing to calm down after various PM's to them.

    I have personally reversed infraction or moderating actions if, after discussion, the member has convinced me I am wrong. if however (as very often happens) they reply with a tirade of abuse, then right or wrong, I am not prepared to engage.

    Discussing moderating decisions on the open forum would result in chaos, as those with an axe to grind would grab the swords and pitchforks and go a hunting for the beasts that are mods.

    It is hard enough dealing with the grief we get in private, between the affected parties, if we had to have every single moderating decision debated in public there would be no mods, I certainly wouldn't stay here under those circumstances as all I would be doing is defending the indefensible (in the eyes of the anti establishment types). :(
     
    Posted: Nov 23, 2012 By: OldWelshGuy Member since: Jun 12, 2008
    #59
  20. internetspaceships

    internetspaceships Banned Full Member

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    That's well written and fair James. I'd LOVE to take issue with something but frankly mate I can't.

    Spot on.

    Dammit don't be reasonable its.. just ... not ... moddish :)
     
    Posted: Nov 23, 2012 By: internetspaceships Member since: Sep 7, 2009
    #60
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