[Moved posts] Moderation views

Discussion in 'Feedback & Help' started by internetspaceships, Nov 21, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. internetspaceships

    internetspaceships Banned Full Member

    6,981 2,329
    If people choose to be insulted by what someone says, surely that is exactly that. Their choice. Nobody forces them to be offended. Maybe sometimes you need to tell people to grow a thicker skin, instead of pandering to their fragility all the time.

    I think that the line between telling it how it is, and flaming is big, bold and very obvious. I don't think it's fine at all.

    It's a conscious decision to cross it too. You probably wouldn't believe it but many of the more vocal members on here DO re-type replies many many times :) before posting.

    You are never ever in a month of Sundays going to stop people going off the deep end occasionally. We all know that.

    I appreciate that you prefer the straight answer too as do I, but maybe there's another way to moderate those that you feel are skirting close to the edge. We've got enough moderators that there should always be a couple on hand to check what's going on so stepping in with a - "guys cool it" could happen more often than it does.

    If I were a mod (heaven forfend) that would the the approach I would take.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: internetspaceships Member since: Sep 7, 2009
    #21
  2. Henry Osadzinski

    Henry Osadzinski UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    2,459 1,135
    This is something we're actively working on all the time. Warnings (the 0 point infractions) are often being used as a way of communicating this in a way that's easy to see via the mod tools and one thing I think we can definitely take away from all this is we can stand to be more visible when it comes to initially calling for calm. The more we can do to be helpful rather than be seen as punishing, the better.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: Henry Osadzinski Member since: Aug 30, 2011
    #22
  3. openmind

    openmind UKBF Big Shot Full Member - Verified Business

    4,750 864
    I agree people decide if they are offended or not but who are we/you/I to decide if they are justified in their feelings? Yes there are times when I feel like posting "grow a pair ya big jessie" but I don't simply as it could be construed as an insult instead of me give hard advice.

    The point is when these people complain about a post they feel is insulting we have to look at it in an objective and neutral way. Again it boils back down to the delivery...
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: openmind Member since: Sep 6, 2005
    #23
  4. OldWelshGuy

    OldWelshGuy UKBF Legend Staff Member

    20,433 7,050
    Calls for calm are the best first step I prefer to take, but many just ignore them and carry on regardless that is a big issue for me, as I am then left with no option other than to issue a strike, which due to the red mist normally ends up in a disgusting PM.

    Once the red mist is down, there are no winners, it is akin to stepping in between a husband and wife who are going at it hammer and tongs. You step inbetween them, they BOTH turn on you.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: OldWelshGuy Member since: Jun 12, 2008
    #24
  5. internetspaceships

    internetspaceships Banned Full Member

    6,981 2,329
    Great, might I suggest that instead of being done in private OR in addition to it being done in private, that the mod posts something as simple and innocuous as "lads, cool it please" on the thread?

    Sometimes that's all it needs and in public, it's better. It shows what's going on and how these things are being policed. This whole secrecy thing is really quite irking.

    BTW thanks for doing this openly fellas- I appreciate it even if I can't always agree with you.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: internetspaceships Member since: Sep 7, 2009
    #25
  6. Henry Osadzinski

    Henry Osadzinski UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    2,459 1,135
    Definitely good to get things discussed constructively like this in the open. There are always cases where the way we plan how to go about things is raised in response to issues out of necessity (and that goes both ways - it's lovely to get a note from someone when they've had a good experience but the majority of contact is to deal with queries or complaints when something falls down). We do want to involve the community as much as we can ahead of time as well, however. Planning and development can take time but it's a lot easier when you know you have members' backing.

    Edit - hit submit too soon. Wanted to add as well that I agree, in the first instance, an open call to calm things down (as well as any private followup) is best. Repeat cases of the same thing require more involvement but our aim is to be clear and helpful, even when there's an infraction coming.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: Henry Osadzinski Member since: Aug 30, 2011
    #26
  7. Tin

    Tin Just an SEO Staff Member

    5,927 1,644
    I'll more often than not call for calm on a thread that is heated but as James has said, it very rarely brings results.

    Believe it or not we do try to not go in guns (strikes) blazing but would much rather prevail upon members to self moderate.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2012
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: Tin Member since: Nov 14, 2005
    #27
  8. Geoff T

    Geoff T UKBF Legend Full Member - Verified Business

    5,599 1,262
    O/T - in the spirit of 'transparency' - I've long thought that a public notice of why members are banned etc from the forum would be good for both the community at large, and for each of the members... as who can know what involvement and implications (and therefore impact) will result? - cos the brass don't know what happens behind the scenes!;)

    e.g. - I've made no secret of being a BNI member - nor do I deny that my company now only deals with suppliers that are BNI members... part of the BNI code says we have to "be supportive of other members" so if a BNI member isn't, then - IMO - to ignore this ignores the rules... I'd want to know the people I talk to in UKBF can be relied upon - rather than having to find out the hard way...

    I appreciate this is a can of worms - but at the end of the day we are talking about "credibility" - both that of Sift and us and members....

    As we couldn't get the "focus group" together - let's talk about it online...
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: Geoff T Member since: Apr 30, 2009
    #28
  9. Tin

    Tin Just an SEO Staff Member

    5,927 1,644
    But this isn't talking bluntly, it's getting personal and having a go at someone. The trouble is everyone's threshold of what is offensive to them is different so to ensure that everyone is happy we have to take into consideration the lowest bar necessary.

    Also, for what it is worth, it wasn't a strike, just a simple warning which we will often use when we have moderated something to let a member know that action has been taken and why and was a long way from getting you removed from the forum which is what you were trying to allude to.

    We're discussing two different things here, plain speaking, telling it like it is or being blunt for someone's own good is one thing, getting personal and being disrespectful to another member is another story.

    It is as, Openmind said, all in the delivery and that is always going to be down to the individual.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: Tin Member since: Nov 14, 2005
    #29
  10. simon field

    simon field UKBF Big Shot Full Member - Verified Business

    4,525 1,663
    Whilst this forum is undoubtedly an excellent source of information and advice from a vast spectrum of people, it's also a excellent source of entertainment imho :)

    Some members on here - one can tell from the wording, the grammar, the general way it's 'put across', with imagination - clearly there exist some truly brilliant minds on here. I for one have learned much, and go on learning.

    When you have a place where people who are apparently 'at the top' hang out with people who, for want of a better way of putting it, ain't - then there are going to be sparks sometimes of course there are. When this happens, have you ever noticed how many members are viewing at the time? Loads, generally ;)

    It's only pixels on a computer screen though! Folk can ignore, they can simply unsubscribe from a thread if they don't like it anymore.

    Sure, I'm thinking mostly about "Time Out" - keep the actual business sections tight and clean fair enough, but the gritty debates have gone. Eggshells are being walked on bigtime.

    When I mentioned the entertainment factor at the beginning, It wasn't meant in a derogatory way, I just feel that the majority of people really do love following a solid, deep, diverse, and sometimes messy - debate.

    They love it! I love it! You love it! Go on, admit it :p
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: simon field Member since: Feb 4, 2011
    #30
  11. OldWelshGuy

    OldWelshGuy UKBF Legend Staff Member

    20,433 7,050
    Yep, it was discussed in detail, and was rejected as unnacceptable. A massive problem is that tempers fly in time out, and then it spills over into the business area. this was why debating religion was stopped, because the bad feeling within those threads spilled over. Also that is a prime example of 'calls for calm' being completely ignored by the membership.

    We try everything possible NOT to ban people, and have even resorted to 2 week short bans to try and prevent mebership loss. But even that has failed to get across that the rules are the rules.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: OldWelshGuy Member since: Jun 12, 2008
    #31
  12. OldWelshGuy

    OldWelshGuy UKBF Legend Staff Member

    20,433 7,050
    I repeat it again, as maybe I didn't make it clear enough, it was completely rejected as an unnacceptable proposition. It was a stright business decision, not a chat among the mods etc. The possibility of having a free for all area was completely rejected out of hand as a non starter.

    I appreciate you are looking for a comparison,. butt isn't like someone moaning about TV, it is like somone deciding they don't want a disco in their front room, it was nothing to do with members, sensitivity or anything else. it was a 100% business decision by the Forum Owners.

    Hopefully that has cleared that up

    We repeatedly tried to get the message over about what was and wasn't acceptable, and that time out isn't 'anything goes' the price for ignoring the warnings is what we now have.

    you have to appreciate that this forum is part of Sift media's portfolio, and for right or for wrong, their decision is based on commercial factors, and having the kind of behaviour that was going on in TO on a daily basis, was deemed unnacceptable. If it means a beige forum, then that is what they get, what they don't get is an unmarketable product.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: OldWelshGuy Member since: Jun 12, 2008
    #32
  13. Tin

    Tin Just an SEO Staff Member

    5,927 1,644
    Because people should have the choice to be able to say what they want without getting a personal attack.

    What I'm trying to say is attack the argument and not the person.

    It is extremely difficult to 'get to know' the real individual behind any Internet persona. The written word is not the only source of communication but it is all that we have and it cuts out body language. So, saying that someone is behaving 'snake like' with a smile and a twinkle in the eye will have a completely different reaction to saying the same thing with a scowl and raised fists. Equally there is no tone in the written word, try saying "I didn't steal his wallet" five times with a different emphasis on each word and you've got five completely different statements.

    When you write on the Internet you have to make allowances for the fact that you do not have body language nor tone to help you to put across exactly what you are trying to say. Yes, we have smilies but even they can get you into trouble if you're not careful :p
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: Tin Member since: Nov 14, 2005
    #33
  14. Matt1959

    Matt1959 UKBF Legend Free Member

    6,295 1,226
    which is what I said on the beige thread and no one replied to it - so beige is official then:)

    moving on, I get the feeling some members are "watched" more than others.

    Re. the snake comment, that is a comment I could easily have made and probably have in the past though I may have subsituted snake for another word but I've never had a single warning let alone an infraction. So one of the more vocal members here makes a snake comment and they get a warning, So yes, I reckon some members here have their cards marked and mods reactions to what they write are not therefore always seen to be impartial....
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: Matt1959 Member since: Sep 8, 2006
    #34
  15. internetspaceships

    internetspaceships Banned Full Member

    6,981 2,329
    This is getting to the nub of what I meant. There's no buzz here any more. No grit.


    James asked me to iterate my individual concerns so here they are.

    My complaint with Henry is that as Community manager he has turned this forum into a politically correct charicature of what it used to be.

    Now, please allow me the licence to say this but Henry, you're trying to run this forum as if it was a council forum or mumsnet. It's not. It's an independent forum for business people, most of whom were brought up in a decade where political correctness wasn't the most important thing in the country. Tony Blair has a lot to answer for in how he had people educated but that's not the main point.

    Most of the moderating changes, forum changes etc are the result of you and/or Sift being scared. Scared of possible reprisals, scared of being sued, scared that some people might "take offense."

    Now I understand that some steps have to be taken in relation to the above, but you're fostering the same feeling amongst the members with regards to what they say. That's not a good thing, and you need to stop pandering to the lowest, weakest denominators all the time. The easily offended. In the words of the immortal Pratchett "buggrem"

    By worrying about them all the time you're dumbing down the forum. Bringing everyone down to their level. Letting them run it.

    Think about it- you're giving them the power of running this forum.

    Tony Blair has a lot to answer for - he gave us a generation of scared people.

    Finally, I'll openly say that I don't think that some of the new Mods should be mods, but that is not my call to make and I respect that.

    Thanks for listening.

    Jon
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: internetspaceships Member since: Sep 7, 2009
    #35
  16. internetspaceships

    internetspaceships Banned Full Member

    6,981 2,329
    Have you seen the trend in traffic stats to this site over the last year, and most markedly in the last month?
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: internetspaceships Member since: Sep 7, 2009
    #36
  17. Tin

    Tin Just an SEO Staff Member

    5,927 1,644
    I feel this is getting blown out of all proportion, yes the comment was removed but no one got a strike and no one got banned, what is the problem?

    To my mind someone sailed a bit close to the wind and was (very politely) informed that the post was removed. It needn't have gone any further than that except that it is now being made an example.

    So let's put this in perspective a little. We have hundreds of active members (I'm not about to waste my time looking at actual figures but a fair guess based on my experience of the forums), the majority of which use this forum daily without any issues whatsoever. Then we have a select few who sail close to the wind, enjoy making contentious posts and also some that relish getting up people's noses. Are their cards marked? No. Do they come up on the mod's radar frequently? Absolutely, for no other reason than they upset other members or upset the general flow of the forum.

    Ok mods hat off and being blunt here if it were my forum I'd have issued a permanent ban ages ago to any member who took up a disproportionate amount of modding time but I've taken up this role as a volunteer and like it or not I have to abide by Sift's rules and decisions.

    Someone talked earlier about treading on eggshells with members feelings. Well, in my opinion (mods hat now in the corner) we tread on eggshells all the time when it comes to dealing with the more controversial members of this forum - if there is any impartiality going on then it is the members who come off better - just my opinion of course.

    Like I said we have to make allowances for the lack of body language and tone so yes 'hypocritcal' would have been less likely to cause offence.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: Tin Member since: Nov 14, 2005
    #37
  18. OldWelshGuy

    OldWelshGuy UKBF Legend Staff Member

    20,433 7,050
    If that is how you feel then that is up to you, if you honestly feel it is pointless having a discussion, then the honest thing to do would be to back out and don't contribute to this thread any more. If however you are posting that staement for effect, then I expect you to continue contributing to this thread.

    I can't speak for Sift, best wait for Henry to come along.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: OldWelshGuy Member since: Jun 12, 2008
    #38
  19. Matt1959

    Matt1959 UKBF Legend Free Member

    6,295 1,226
    my point was that this is the sort of comment made in the past by members and it wouldnt have been picked up on. lets face it, its a pretty bland comment and anyone who comes on here and posts that they've just reported 2 police cars for breaking the speed limit must expect to have a reaction. It appears the reaction to what is written is dependant who on has written it not what was written - thats what I was saying...

    I think the poster said he received a warning for this...
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: Matt1959 Member since: Sep 8, 2006
    #39
  20. openmind

    openmind UKBF Big Shot Full Member - Verified Business

    4,750 864
    If sift weren't bothered about opinions then Henry wouldn't have split the off topic posts to this thread and encouraged this debate. We would have just deleted them.

    Seems to me that you are missing the point completely. What im not sure on is if this is deliberate or not..
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: openmind Member since: Sep 6, 2005
    #40
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.