[Moved posts] Moderation views

Discussion in 'Feedback & Help' started by internetspaceships, Nov 21, 2012.

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  1. internetspaceships

    internetspaceships Banned Full Member

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    ###Note from Admin###

    This thread has been created from posts moved from a separate thread so that both conversations can continue without causing confusion to anyone replying to either point. Apologies for the edit of this post but the current vBulletin system won't allow newer posts to be displayed above older ones.

    -Henry


    ---------------------------

    That would be a good topic for a thread, but since it looks like I'm about to be taking an enforced holiday from UKBF for being blunt, I cant be bothered to set one up.

    Clueless- utterly clueless people abound don't they. Useful threads don't seem to be wanted.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2012
    Posted: Nov 21, 2012 By: internetspaceships Member since: Sep 7, 2009
    #1
  2. Tej

    Tej UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    3,337 1,113

    Why is that? ... you gotta be able to call a spade a spade.... or does one have to be "nice" and not ruffle any feathers. This is a business forum... and in business you got to able to accept a kick in the goolies... and still smile..( at the same time) :)
     
    Posted: Nov 21, 2012 By: Tej Member since: Oct 26, 2008
    #2
  3. simon field

    simon field UKBF Big Shot Full Member - Verified Business

    4,540 1,668
    You mustn't ask questions like that Tej, it is frowned upon to discuss matters of a disciplinary nature - and as Jon seems to be hanging in there by the skin of his teeth we'd best change the subject mate...

    Having said that, I completely agree with you :D
     
    Posted: Nov 21, 2012 By: simon field Member since: Feb 4, 2011
    #3
  4. Tej

    Tej UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    3,337 1,113
    LOL... just as well I am here only for the comedy value... this proves my point:)

    Adults and being in business and getting banned for calling a spade a spade??

    mind boggling.

    What happened to

    "Rules are for the obedience of fools
    and the guidance of wise men"

    :) :)
     
    Posted: Nov 21, 2012 By: Tej Member since: Oct 26, 2008
    #4
  5. internetspaceships

    internetspaceships Banned Full Member

    6,981 2,329
    What makes me laugh is that I've never met a politically correct and bashful successful person yet.

    I've met plenty of failures who are like that though.

    Successful people have an "edge" that although might not be appreciated by the masses, gets them where the masses can't get to.

    Maybe its jealousy that makes the masses write these people off. It's an easy way to deflect from their own inadequacies.
     
    Posted: Nov 21, 2012 By: internetspaceships Member since: Sep 7, 2009
    #5
  6. simon field

    simon field UKBF Big Shot Full Member - Verified Business

    4,540 1,668
    I hear dce, connie, c. closer etc went to Coventry for their hols..

    It must be nice there, they've been gone ages :D
     
    Posted: Nov 21, 2012 By: simon field Member since: Feb 4, 2011
    #6
  7. Tin

    Tin Just an SEO Staff Member

    5,929 1,644
    For the record, there's nothing in the rules that says you can't speak bluntly and to my knowledge none of the members, ex or otherwise, have or will be given an enforced holiday from here for being simply blunt.

    On the other hand, members who are disrespectful, continually disruptive or just downright rude will eventually be shown the door but as has been said many times before infractions are cumulative and every member is given ample warning of their impending departure, usually in the guise of several warnings, followed by strikes and the moderation team do try very hard not give holidays out willy nilly.

    Sift own these forums, they're entitled to expect members to abide by the rules, non of which are particularly onerous.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: Tin Member since: Nov 14, 2005
    #7
  8. internetspaceships

    internetspaceships Banned Full Member

    6,981 2,329
    Well since you're implying that I'm either disrespectful, continually disruptive, or downright right I'm afraid I have to take issue with that.

    Read your own post, and you will see that this is what you have actually implied and brought to the table. Sadly your forum rules don't allow me to do more than just take issue because I'm effectively gagged.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: internetspaceships Member since: Sep 7, 2009
    #8
  9. Henry Osadzinski

    Henry Osadzinski UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    [Posts moved into new thread - context]

    As there were, essentially, two conversations going on in one thread, I've split out some posts to make it easier for the original discussion to carry on whilst addressing some points of contention that have been raised.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: Henry Osadzinski Member since: Aug 30, 2011
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  10. Henry Osadzinski

    Henry Osadzinski UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    2,459 1,135
    There are a few things here that I feel should be taken separately so please excuse the brevity in using bullet points:

    • As Ray says, there’s nothing wrong with giving an honest opinion or being blunt. Jon, I agree that in order to succeed it is often required to point out and face up to hard truths – something which I’ve seen members in this thread and many others use to great effect. There’s a big difference, however, between doing this constructively and doing it in a way that comes across as more an attack than advice or pure opinion. Our rules are in place to make it clear that this second kind of posting isn’t something we want here on UKBF.

    • We’re very aware and open about the fact that mods, like all regular members and people everywhere, are not infallible. Mistakes get made, some of which have been raised here, and we address them. In the past this had led to reversed infractions as well as apologies and discussions wherever a situation has been misread or miscommunicated. Bringing them up after the fact doesn’t do anything except unnecessarily add fuel to the fire.

    • Bans have been brought up a few times and they do indeed vary. We feel it’s pointless and entirely counterproductive to block someone from the site because of personal arguments that could be avoided. Shorter bans to give people some time to step away and cool off have been used to let people who clearly want to use the site back sooner and it’s done with extra care and attention to make sure we’re clear about everything. Six month / permanent bans are only used as an absolute last resort when communication has broken down entirely and big rule breaches continue. If someone is on the forums then we take that to mean they have relevant things they want to contribute and we want to make sure they’re able to.
    As always, any questions etc. about the site’s policy or anything else that’s relevant are always welcome here and some frank discussion could help. If you want to talk about anything referring to specific moderation, please do it via PM with me or email.

    Thanks
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: Henry Osadzinski Member since: Aug 30, 2011
    #10
  11. internetspaceships

    internetspaceships Banned Full Member

    6,981 2,329
    Henry why can't we have a public place to do this- the whole problem is that the mods are allowed to dive in and say what THEY like but you gag us and want all our opinions etc in private.

    I could (and should) have said a lot more back to Ray after what he said because frankly it was bloody offensive, supercilious and hypocritical.

    Especially when he knew full well that I couldn't reply in kind because of the daft restrictions you have in play here.

    So, what about a level playing field mate?

    jon
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: internetspaceships Member since: Sep 7, 2009
    #11
  12. Henry Osadzinski

    Henry Osadzinski UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    2,459 1,135
    It's never our intention to gag or hide complaints. The restriction on discussing specific mod actions is in place for a number of reasons:

    • To prevent threads where content has been moderated from being derailed by queries / complaints of moderation.
    • To respect the privacy of members whose posts are moderated, which they may not wish to share. Moderation is done impartially and is a matter between the member involved and the mod team, who are asked to be discrete about it.

    That said, I can see the arguments for potentially introducing an infraction / moderation query area and we're open to suggestions about how to make the process more transparent, with the understanding that participation is up to the member who wants to raise a query or other feedback. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2012
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: Henry Osadzinski Member since: Aug 30, 2011
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  13. Faevilangel

    Faevilangel Website Critic Full Member

    7,564 2,405
    No one is gagged unless the context of the post is a personal attack e.g.
    That is an opinion and not an attack, where as:

    Is a personal attack, and will be moderated / gagged.

    Said it before, argue with the argument, not the poster. Once you start bringing personal feelings into something, it's a recipe for disaster.

    Jon, I can't see how Ray's post was aimed at you, I am happy to be enlightened to be shown how it was aimed at you.

    Also Jon, this is in the feedback area so is in a public place, is it not?

    Finally, all the moderators are human, have made mistakes and will own up if their is, you also have the chance to go direct to Henry if you have an issue with a moderators actions.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: Faevilangel Member since: Jun 29, 2009
    #13
  14. internetspaceships

    internetspaceships Banned Full Member

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    I was the one who said I was in trouble for being blunt. Ray's post started off exactly answering this point to the letter so it's perfectly reasonable to assume it was aimed at me.

    And logical. If you can't see it then maybe you need to read it in context with my own.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: internetspaceships Member since: Sep 7, 2009
    #14
  15. OldWelshGuy

    OldWelshGuy UKBF Legend Staff Member

    20,433 7,050
    Might I take this in a different direction for a moment here.

    There seems to be issues with the rules, yet the attacks are made against the application of the rules.

    How about an open and frank exchange of views about the rules themselves, and how they are applied (generically and not indovidually) i.e. xxx did this .

    If we can get to the root cause then maybe we can stop this harmful bickering and sniping, because ALL that happens is the forum gets damaged as a community. We have lost some really good individuals from this forum, and no doubt will lose more, such is the way of the community. But communities change, and it is no good raging against the machine, when the opportunity is there to change the way the machine operates.

    Many have said the changes to the forum are rubbish, that it is killing the forum, BUT what is needed is specifics. Explain why xyz change has harmed and how you feel it should be handled/changed. it can then be taken onboard and if it makes sense then the rules can be changed.

    Something that has to be understood though is that none of the changes made were taken lightly, they were debated in depth, and came about as a result of complaints/suggestions.

    What is needed IMO is an open and honest exchange of views WITHOUT the personal attacks or anger, just a calm honest debate.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: OldWelshGuy Member since: Jun 12, 2008
    #15
  16. internetspaceships

    internetspaceships Banned Full Member

    6,981 2,329
    I agree James. HOWEVER what's all this preoccupation with attacks?

    Anyone would think it was a major drama when someone says cruel words on the Internet.

    As long as someone can come back and respond it's perfectly ok but you're micromanaging the bejesus out of UKBF at the moment to the point where it's becoming bland, boring and completely (as someone else said) beige.

    What makes a community? Personalities make a community for better AND for worse.

    The result of the recent changes, rules, etc is that the majority of your personalities are now banned or don't bother replying on here any more.

    Is that really what you want from this forum? To be devoid of personality?

    A place that lacks personality dies. James you of all people should know this with your vast experience of fora.

    Henry as community manager, before long you're not going to have a community to manage. Unless of course you start listening to some of the people who might actually have something to say that doesn't agree with you.

    That's not an attack before we go down that route- it's plain talk. I believe Sir that you could do a lot better for this forum if you looked at it from more of a business perspective.

    Respectfully (and I mean that)

    Jon
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: internetspaceships Member since: Sep 7, 2009
    #16
  17. Tin

    Tin Just an SEO Staff Member

    5,929 1,644
    See, I can't respond to this statement as that would be openly discussing personal moderation but as you've brought it up, I stand by my earlier comment, to my knowledge no member gets infractions for speaking bluntly and it is actually quite difficult to get a ban from this place.

    Why do you expect to hear from me when another moderator has taken an action? It's up to each moderator to be responsible for their own actions, the situation you mentioned was just a simple mistake by a new moderator who's on an understandable learning curve. It had also already been dealt with by the time I was aware of it so that's another reason why I wouldn't have needed to respond.

    I'm a member in my own right and as entitled as you to have my say, especially when members are calling into question the moderation of this forum. Or is it only acceptable for you to have a rant and not for anyone to be able to voice the other side of the story?

    Not necessarily abusive as I (despite reading your comments thoroughly) cannot see anything abusive about your post but your persistent and obvious snipes about "recipes" is clearly designed to inflame another member, it is more than a bit obvious here isn't it?

    As far as I'm aware the only rule about discussing moderation is that personal specifics aren't mentioned and the reason for that is simply out of respect for the member concerned.

    Sorry but I fail to see what was so offensive about my post. You suggested that you were likely to be banned for talking bluntly on the forum and I was simply saying that that is not the case, in fact far from it. If you are going to make statements like that it is only fair that we should be allowed to put forward our side of the argument.

    Nope, as far as I'm concerned you've every right to reply, just don't go into personal specifics.

    All I did was exercise my right to reply. If you are going to openly criticise the moderators and their actions then you have to accept that we have the right to respond and defend our position.

    You started this discussion by saying that UKBF does not allow members to be blunt and I was simply saying that is not the case.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: Tin Member since: Nov 14, 2005
    #17
  18. openmind

    openmind UKBF Big Shot Full Member - Verified Business

    4,750 864
    The problem is Jon there is a very fine line between straight talking and flaming. You mention personalities a number of times but one persons humor is another persons insult.

    The problem is catering for all sides all of the time which will always be impossible. If people stopped and thought a little longer before engaging their fingers then maybe we wouldn't have as many of these issues as we do. Something I am guilty of myself.

    I would take a straight talking answer over a "ooh look it's a fluffy kitten" response every day of the week but it's all about the delivery...
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: openmind Member since: Sep 6, 2005
    #18
  19. Henry Osadzinski

    Henry Osadzinski UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    2,459 1,135
    There is another side to that, though. We do appreciate people who are comfortable speaking their minds but attacks - and I use this defined as directed use of abusive or otherwise insulting language in posts - aren't something we have ever tolerated. Not everyone has thick skin and, while some may rise admirably to a challenge, as Phil says, the way it's delivered can also be harmful. We don't want any members, especially new ones still settling into the site, to be discouraged by a response even if the bark is worse than the bite.

    With that said, there's always the chance to move towards better understanding on both sides. When giving advice about getting started on the site and when it comes to the info that's shared on here, there is a general idea that we try to get across which is that you get back what you put in. The community is what the membership makes of it and the more debate and active discussion to add colour to the site is what everyone wants, I think is safe to say.

    A lot of the disagreement that arises around moderation seems to come from when people don't see eye to eye on the way posts come across or should be read. As I'm sure you can understand, both I and the rest of Sift Media want as much of what's on the site to be constructive, helpful and conclude positively. We can always look at the way that's communicated and agreed with by all members - an accepted code of conduct, essentially. Out of necessity, the rules have always acted as guidelines regarding using the site and handling infractions which, when taken purely as such (rather than guidelines to help get the most out of threads), can paint things in more muted tones (I hate beige generally :p).

    If we can highlight the points where people feel there is room for improvement when it comes to making sure that people can speak their minds whilst keeping back the comments that hit below the belt, we could improve that. What do you reckon?
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: Henry Osadzinski Member since: Aug 30, 2011
    #19
  20. OldWelshGuy

    OldWelshGuy UKBF Legend Staff Member

    20,433 7,050
    Lots of word Jon but no detail not a politician are you :p

    Specifically what changes do you feel have harmed the forum. if you are concerned about repercussions from your thoughts, then just Pm them to Henry.

    I mentioned attacking because I didn't want it to get into he said she said, as that helps no-one. throwing stones will never have a good outcome. We are all adults here and now is the time for honesty, it is like the wedding ceremony when the vicar says 'speak now or forever hold your peace' .

    One mans meat is another mans poison, when change comes, some will like it some will not. What some see as hearty discussion and a reson to stay, other see as nasty sniping and a reason to walk away. What we need to try and do now is find the common ground. and work from there.

    It is a fine line between moderating to enhance, and over moderating which with the best of intentions can have the opposite effect.

    If you have concerns about the forum as a whole or specifically individuals, then why not get it all off your chest in an open and honest Pm to Henry?

    As Mrs Doyle would say ' Ah go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on,GO ON! ' means nothing unless you are a father Ted fan.
     
    Posted: Nov 22, 2012 By: OldWelshGuy Member since: Jun 12, 2008
    #20
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