Minimum wage speculation for 2020

Discussion in 'General Business Forum' started by Talay, Aug 9, 2019.

  1. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

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    We have a UBI system here in the UK, have had for many years. When I used it the amount was about £18k over 3 years, eventually additional taxation of a few percent with a tax free allowance that's quite high applies but many keep below that tax free allowance.
    For 3 - 5 years they get the extra money. Often spending it on stuff they want including drink, drugs, music, art etc. Many recipients still have to work at least part time or be helped by relatives.

    We have a catch-all term for the recipients. We call them 'students'.
    Back in 1990 they only got a bit over a couple of grand a year, 20 years later they had to pay towards their course out of the money but got around £6k a year.
     
    Posted: Aug 13, 2019 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
    #61
  2. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

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    The concept of UBI is very compelling for those of us who believe that all people matter. The difficulty that I foresee is the level. It has to be enough to support those in receipt of it without the need for any state benefits. That is at a higher level than current benefits are paid. Perhaps £1,000 per month for each adult and £250 for each person under 18. It has to be the same rate throughout the country or you introduce the need for policing it and the problem of financial 'borders'.

    The direct cost would be high. Some of that will be recovered through taxation - if the UBI is set at the tax-free level (and don't get me started on why the NI level is so much lower than the PAYE level) then those with no other income contribute nothing. Those with a high personal income will contribute most of it back in taxation. Those in the middle will contribute 32%.

    Logically it would also replace the state pension, which may cause distress to those who have "worked hard all their lives" and may see this as the pension they have paid for being taken away.

    The savings in administration would be high. No need to calculate all those means tested benefits, no need for those receiving in-work benefits to have those levels re-calculated every time they receive a slight variation in their income. No benefit fraud investigation.

    I am just afraid that, if it were ever to be seriously considered, the rate would be set at a level that makes it pointless.
     
    Posted: Aug 13, 2019 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
    #62
  3. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

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    One minor correction - those given money still pay tax. Just not income tax.
    VAT is paid by most people. So not nothing, but may not be perhaps more than a sixth of what they receive.

    Would need to be some fraud investigation but lot lower level. I can see at least one way of fiddling it, likely there will be others.
     
    Posted: Aug 13, 2019 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
    #63
  4. NickGrogan

    NickGrogan UKBF Ace Free Member

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    Why did you feel the need to put worked hard all their lives in quotes?

    Do you not believe that pensioners have worked hard all their lives, or do their lives not matter in the same way as those you expect to receive UBI?

    Increasing unemployment, as tens of thousands of civil servants are laid off.
     
    Posted: Aug 13, 2019 By: NickGrogan Member since: Nov 15, 2012
    #64
  5. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

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    It is because it is the classic tory lie. Every person in this country who reaches pension age will receive a state pension. Someone who has spent their entire life receiving state benefits receives the same state pension as someone who has worked every day of their lives since the age of 15. The tories use it every time they mention pensioners because they want to imply that only those people who "have worked hard all their lives" are entitled to state benefits. They know it would be political suicide to attack pensioner benefits any more than they already have, so they use the phrase incessantly to justify not removing their benefits while removing benefits from "scroungers".

    And yes, removing the administration around state benefits would increase unemploment among civil servants and local government officials. However they would receive the universal benefit and may be able to move into work vacated by those who choose not to work.
     
    Posted: Aug 13, 2019 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
    #65
  6. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

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    Would you prefer those who haven't worked since the age of 15 to get less state pension?
     
    Posted: Aug 13, 2019 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
    #66
  7. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

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    Did you bother to read my post?
     
    Posted: Aug 13, 2019 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
    #67
  8. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

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    Yes hence asking the question. You mention what the tories want but you don't mention what you want. Hard to guess from your post whether you are annoyed at people getting state benefits then pension or glad.

    A question often helps clarify what someone means.
     
    Posted: Aug 13, 2019 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
    #68
  9. NickGrogan

    NickGrogan UKBF Ace Free Member

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    Left-wing answer to many problems, completely ignore the question and answer a different one.

    I asked why you felt the need to put worked hard all their lives in quotes, care to answer?

    As to your second point, no they won't.

    "For the new State Pension, you will normally need at least 10 ‘qualifying years’ on your National Insurance record to get any State Pension. "

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ension-explained/your-state-pension-explained
     
    Posted: Aug 13, 2019 By: NickGrogan Member since: Nov 15, 2012
    #69
  10. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

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    Because it is always said by tory politicians whenever they talk about pensioners and it is a lie.
    And everyone on state benefits gets credited with a qualifying year for every year they are on benefits.
     
    Posted: Aug 13, 2019 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
    #70
  11. Paul Norman

    Paul Norman UKBF Ace Free Member

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    Returning slightly to the question in the original post as to who will pay for this.

    Well, firstly, no one in my business earns less than £9 an hour right at the moment. We try to stay in front of the increases as they loom, and £9 is not exactly a king's ransom. In fact, outside of the North East (where our business is based), I suspect it is not enough to live on, unless you work 80 hours a week.

    There are many circular arguments about this, all of which leak under examination. But it is my responsibility as an employer to create value not just for myself. Obviously, the government will step in and prop up any skin flintery on my part with some benefits for my team, but I would rather that was not quite as necessary, leaving the welfare budget for those with no jobs, with disabilities, those who are old, and those who are vulnerable.
     
    Posted: Aug 14, 2019 By: Paul Norman Member since: Apr 8, 2010
    #71
  12. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

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    Must tell my wife that, south of you, earning £8.21 an hour that £9 isn't enough to live on.
    Couple of years time she will be on that and we can test it.
    Strangely millions of people appear to be on under £9 outside the NE and do live on their money. What are they doing wrong?
     
    Posted: Aug 14, 2019 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
    #72
  13. NickGrogan

    NickGrogan UKBF Ace Free Member

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    I'm sure that you'll agree that these sentences are not the same.

    What about people who are not working, and not claiming state benefits?

    What about people who come to the UK in their 60's?

    Wow
     
    Posted: Aug 14, 2019 By: NickGrogan Member since: Nov 15, 2012
    #73
  14. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

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    True. But you are talking about a tiny proportion of the popultion. It is absolutely true that being in recepit of the state pension does not mean that you have worked hard all of your life.
     
    Posted: Aug 14, 2019 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
    #74
  15. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

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    Depends how you define working hard.

    Is someone caring for two elderly parents at home working hard?
    Is someone raising 4 kids as a single parent working hard?
    Is someone looking after a disabled / ill partner working hard?
    Is someone looking after their newborn baby rather than returning to employment immediately they are allowed to, working hard?

    Lots of people work hard without receiving government recognition of the fact - no matter the government.
     
    Posted: Aug 14, 2019 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
    #75
  16. alan1302

    alan1302 UKBF Regular Free Member

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    What has the definition of hard work got to do with it? Just means you can have state pension without having worked hard.
     
    Posted: Aug 14, 2019 By: alan1302 Member since: Jun 2, 2018
    #76
  17. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

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    Cyndy appears to have an idea about hard work. Just asking if its based on reality or artificial view.
    Lots of people claim to have worked hard. Reality may be different.

    Of course to get the annual credit for pension doesn't require working hard. It just requires meeting the requirements. Working hard isn't apparently one of them.
     
    Posted: Aug 14, 2019 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
    #77
  18. tony84

    tony84 UKBF Big Shot Free Member

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    If minimum wage goes to £8.70 an hour, that is 96% of the way there.
    If you think 4% is going to cost them in the next election I think you are massively mistaken.

    Appreciate to people on minimum wage 30p an hour makes a big difference - I have been there! But if any government delivered 96% of what they said they would I think they would be hailed as heros.

    I doubt Labour would even raise it as a failing, it just means they delivered it a year behind schedule. There would also be an argument that pensions are now in place for the majority of the employed population which more than makes up for the 30p an hour difference.
     
    Posted: Aug 14, 2019 By: tony84 Member since: Apr 14, 2008
    #78
  19. Noah

    Noah UKBF Ace Free Member

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    Chucking pejorative labels at people obstructs constructive discussion.

    If you can't see this you must be really stupid.
     
    Posted: Aug 14, 2019 By: Noah Member since: Sep 1, 2009
    #79
  20. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

    15,606 1,719
    Don't forget the increase in tax free allowance. Get an extra say £800 a year gross plus an extra say £100 a year net from tax allowance change and its a considerable pay rise.
    Call it £50 net from those figures perhaps? People aren't necessarily unhappy with a £50 a month increase in pay for the same work.

    If wages become an issue in a general election the Conservatives have plenty of positive stuff they can crow about.
     
    Posted: Aug 14, 2019 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
    #80