Y
YEM
- Original Poster
- #7
PeteA said:
Hi Pete,
Thanks for that. The reason that I ask is because I believe that people should stick to what they know. Without experience, how can you offer a quality service as opposed to a design agency, or branding consultant such as Eagle (eagleimagery.co.uk), or Redwelly Media Ltd (www.redwellymedia.co.uk)? (There are others on here too, Jacqui at Creacom for example).
If you are trying to build a creative business, it is important to have a portfolio to show your clients your capabilities, otherwise, how will they know what you can do.
There are a few posts on here about this topic, so have a search to find them, I'm sure they'll provide you with some good information.
With regards to your services being 'cheap' - people get what they pay for and you may want to consider this!!!
I don't mean to be negative, however there are hundreds of people out there trying to create logos/brands etc etc for people and those clients find that in as little as six months down the road, they need to re-brand their business, because the existing brand isn't positioning them at the right place.
Some of the first things many people ask when choosing a designer is:
'What is your background?'
'What is your experience?'
'Who are your existing clients?' (portfolio)
'What can you do for me?'
If you can satisfy these questions, then great. If you're experince is designing my own logo, then you may need to consider whether you can actually offer this service at all.
Upvote
0
D
Dawg
- Original Poster
- #9
Dear YEM,
you said:
In fact I totally agree with you on the importance of experience, ability, knowledge and talent, and how it should be properly rewarded. But if people want (ahem) 'lower end provision', it is their choice.
you said:
I think they might want to consider this! Pete is offering a service. If people want to take it up it is surely up to them.
In fact I totally agree with you on the importance of experience, ability, knowledge and talent, and how it should be properly rewarded. But if people want (ahem) 'lower end provision', it is their choice.
Upvote
0
But their is a problem, Pete - potential clients won't know you can't offer the same service as a seasoned, experienced professional designer...
That's the danger you place them in by offering your 'service'.
Can your £10 logo be placed on the side of 747 without losing any quality? Are you providing written copyright assignment? Do you design with Pantone colours? Do you even have a Pantone swatch book? Do you design with vector software (Photoshop/bitmap-based software just doesn't cut it). Can you advise the client on how best to apply their logo on a t-shirt? Could you competently sort out any issues arising with their printers?
I could go on....
Best of luck.
That's the danger you place them in by offering your 'service'.
Can your £10 logo be placed on the side of 747 without losing any quality? Are you providing written copyright assignment? Do you design with Pantone colours? Do you even have a Pantone swatch book? Do you design with vector software (Photoshop/bitmap-based software just doesn't cut it). Can you advise the client on how best to apply their logo on a t-shirt? Could you competently sort out any issues arising with their printers?
I could go on....
Best of luck.
Upvote
0
A
apeebles
- Original Poster
- #17
Logo design is not always that straightforward. Apart from all the thought that goes into the image which a company is trying to portray then there are some basic rules. Ie. The spot colours in which the logo has designed in must have pantone references if it is going to be printed. Has it been checked to see if it can be reproduced in CYMK as well as RGB. To do this you need the pantone swatch books and while your at it how does it look on coated and uncoated stock?
As ever you pay for what you get.
As ever you pay for what you get.
Upvote
0
People who charge high prices always get so defensive when someone comes in who is cheaper or less experienced, I have noticed that. (when I mentioned that I thought I could probably do SEO and Marketing work I got quite abrasive replies as well).
Not having a person charging cheaper is not going to force people to spend loads. People shouldn't get so threatened.
Not having a person charging cheaper is not going to force people to spend loads. People shouldn't get so threatened.
Upvote
0
B
Bulldog Design
- Original Poster
- #26
We're talking about two different target markets. Fair enough, the bigger companies aren't going to look for budget designers, they will always hire premium-price designers.
But what about the average startup business? The fact is, they simply can't afford premium prices. Although I do agree that logo's should be print and web ready vectors and copyright should be handed over as standard.
Just because a someone knows their market and prices their services accordingly, it doesn't mean they aren't a talented designer.
But what about the average startup business? The fact is, they simply can't afford premium prices. Although I do agree that logo's should be print and web ready vectors and copyright should be handed over as standard.
Just because a someone knows their market and prices their services accordingly, it doesn't mean they aren't a talented designer.
Upvote
0
C
Coding Monkey
- Original Poster
- #29
I don't offer any of the services that you were offering, so there was no need for me to be defensive, rather informative. Purely the way that you believed you knew it was a sheer delusion, and your responses in other threads have verified this.
I have no problem if someone wants to offer a cheap service, as there will always be a market available for it. And I know that in most cases, that person is never likely to be a customer, because they only look toward the price, not the value. However, it's understandable why people feel the need to make the distinction between the prices, as the customer cannot be expected to know of what to look for in a professional in all cases.
I have no problem if someone wants to offer a cheap service, as there will always be a market available for it. And I know that in most cases, that person is never likely to be a customer, because they only look toward the price, not the value. However, it's understandable why people feel the need to make the distinction between the prices, as the customer cannot be expected to know of what to look for in a professional in all cases.
Reakt said:
Upvote
0
Not necessarily. People who do cheap work can do very good jobs, it depends how they value their work (for example you could do a very good design for £10, whats stopping that from happening is the fact that you don't want to).Eagle said:It's the client who is under threat, not the competition.
It's a simple fact that small businesses can't afford it sometimes. I'd rather any business get a cheaper service instead of pressurising them with my more expensive work, I know how they feel and I treat them as I would want to be treated.
But to be realistic. Whether you spend Hundreds or thousands on a Logo, it won't make a difference in the long run, unless you're a large corporation or theres a very noticable difference.
This is my point about people becoming more offensive. I never believed I knew, if I believed I knew I wouldn't of made a thread asking the question. I asked to get a confirmation about what is involved since from what I percieved it didn't seem that difficult and I was asking someone to prove me wrong and explain, like I said in the thread "they have university degrees in marketing for a reason".
I really wish people wouldn't get so defensive when people are just trying to learn....
Upvote
0
C
Coding Monkey
- Original Poster
- #31
Reakt said:
Or the fact that he has overheads, expenses in software (costing around £1500 minimum every 18 months), expenses in hardware, drawing tablets, understanding clients requirements, knowledge (an expense itself to get to that level), unlimited revisions and so on and so on. If Mark wished to charge £10 for a logo, he would go bankrupt, as an average logo does not take an hour to do. Even if it did, where would the money come from to market himself after salaries and expenses? You also learn that, in a strange twist, people appreciate and accept advice more, the more they pay for it.
Why do you say that? A client of ours has become one of the most recognised in their industry since they did a complete rebrand, and the association becomes stronger with the more marketing they do, until their logo is known enough that people automatically associate it with their service. Their marketing then follows a specific theme, along with their website, that carries the brand through and presents them as a more successful company - something everyone wants to deal with.
Upvote
0
Let's give Pete some encouragement, guys, instead of just pouncing. As long as everyone understands the groundrules, what's the problem? As Pete says, he's being quite open about not having worked in this field before. It's a nice way for someone to get an inexpensive logo and for him to build some credibility. No risk, no reward. Maybe it won't work for some, but what's to lose?
Eagle's and Tom's points are valid and must be taken into account; however, for some startups, Pete's offer may be just the ticket.
Eagle's and Tom's points are valid and must be taken into account; however, for some startups, Pete's offer may be just the ticket.
Upvote
0
L
little_stork
- Original Poster
- #33
Bloomin eck!!! What a can of worms pete has opened here!! I have seen the logo and in my unprofessional opinion it looks good. As a few people have stated on here, many new businesses can't afford the kind of money that many designers charge. My question to designers is this: If i pay you a few hundred pounds to design my logo how will that help me sell more, than if i pay pete a tenner to design it?
Also does a customer know the difference?
Please do not get offended my my ignorance. I understand the costings of equipment etc. Educate me please.
Regards Tracey
Also does a customer know the difference?
Please do not get offended my my ignorance. I understand the costings of equipment etc. Educate me please.
Regards Tracey
Upvote
0
I'm well aware. My point is he could do it for £10 if he wanted to, not including the variables. There are many people with adiquite levels of skill who do not have a Business. They spend a few hundred pounds on Photoshop or Illustrator, they have a Computer and a Graphics tablet. What I'm saying is the cost should not be the only factor in deciding who is a good graphics designer. I know some individuals who are incredibly artistic and knowledgeable and would do some work for £40 which is at a more then acceptable level.MacMyDay said:
Edit: Little_stork has it spot on. For a small business is spending the extra money worth it and will it end up making more profit for the more money you have spent (this is on the terms of a decent logo design like Pete's and a design which costs much more).
MacMyDay said:
Upvote
0
C
CG Effect
- Original Poster
- #35
Without branding or a logo your business looks the same as every other business with no branding. Think of how long you want someone to spend on the look of your business, you want someone that knows what their doing to avoid problems with printing and the design working and know that you have to pay them at least minimum wage + his or her running costs.
A designer that knows they are good are not going to want to earn the same as the worst jobs in the UK.
An original logo takes a lot of time to create. For £10 a logo I would never make my money back on my investment. To make decent logos that work with printers and designers a logo designer needs to spend hundreds on vector design software and loads of time learning it. I was awful at logo design when I started it's taken a lot of practice and studying to get as good as I am.
The problem with logos is they ain't easy they got to be original so as not to get the owner into a legal battle over trademark theft.
They have to work with any medium and the client and his clients have got to like it.
Theirs lots of other considerations that a lot of people won't know about for that reason they make a costly mistake buying a bad design.
A rushed design will not cover what a logo needs to be.
A designer that knows they are good are not going to want to earn the same as the worst jobs in the UK.
An original logo takes a lot of time to create. For £10 a logo I would never make my money back on my investment. To make decent logos that work with printers and designers a logo designer needs to spend hundreds on vector design software and loads of time learning it. I was awful at logo design when I started it's taken a lot of practice and studying to get as good as I am.
The problem with logos is they ain't easy they got to be original so as not to get the owner into a legal battle over trademark theft.
They have to work with any medium and the client and his clients have got to like it.
Theirs lots of other considerations that a lot of people won't know about for that reason they make a costly mistake buying a bad design.
A rushed design will not cover what a logo needs to be.
Upvote
0
F
fastfences
- Original Poster
- #36
'Value' is a strange demon.
I have recently posted requesting info. on e-commerce prices. I had a quote (through a business referral) of £5640 PLUS VAT for a site that would launch with only 4 products. I had no doubt the site would be good.
My 'usual' designer (http://www.c2webdesign.co.uk/) has quoted five thousand UNDER the above, and I believe I will get an equally good, or better job.
There is no doubt that both the above companies offer a great product, it's just that sometimes we can go only with what we can afford.
cheers, Nigel
I have recently posted requesting info. on e-commerce prices. I had a quote (through a business referral) of £5640 PLUS VAT for a site that would launch with only 4 products. I had no doubt the site would be good.
My 'usual' designer (http://www.c2webdesign.co.uk/) has quoted five thousand UNDER the above, and I believe I will get an equally good, or better job.
There is no doubt that both the above companies offer a great product, it's just that sometimes we can go only with what we can afford.
cheers, Nigel
Upvote
0
D
Dawg
- Original Poster
- #37
Hey..Pete is offering a cheap service to people who can't or don't want to pay the rates established professionals charge. Nobody has to take him up on his offer. If they do; good luck.
So what is this 'overhead' this and 'experience' that, multiposting all about? We know the animals, (Monkey and Eagle), do great work, and that they incur overheads to do it at that level, but nobody is forcing them to incur those overheads. As they have chosen to do; good luck.
It is a marketplace, there is room for all. Some will prosper, some will not; but is this forum really the place to get snitty about it?
I sort of thought that a small business forum might be supportive of someone 'having a go', rather than asking where his design licence is.
(The Pro's are not going to get this business anyway, although in a few cases the micro businesses will grow and need rebranding, which they will then get done by one of the Pro's.)
And BTW Red Ant Electronics, a bit rich asking him (twice?) to post the logos up when you have zilch up. Cheap shot really.
So what is this 'overhead' this and 'experience' that, multiposting all about? We know the animals, (Monkey and Eagle), do great work, and that they incur overheads to do it at that level, but nobody is forcing them to incur those overheads. As they have chosen to do; good luck.
It is a marketplace, there is room for all. Some will prosper, some will not; but is this forum really the place to get snitty about it?
I sort of thought that a small business forum might be supportive of someone 'having a go', rather than asking where his design licence is.
(The Pro's are not going to get this business anyway, although in a few cases the micro businesses will grow and need rebranding, which they will then get done by one of the Pro's.)
And BTW Red Ant Electronics, a bit rich asking him (twice?) to post the logos up when you have zilch up. Cheap shot really.
Upvote
0
Wow, what a load of debate over this; quite surprising really!
After all, Pete's telling them upfront that he's a novice and that they don't even have to give him a tenner if they don't like it. So for those who have zero ability to create logos and hardly any budget, this might be a useful service. Surely the biggest risk to the client is they spend nothing and click 'delete' on the image he sends them the next day, and then pay someone more experienced a serious amount of money to come up with something different!
After all, Pete's telling them upfront that he's a novice and that they don't even have to give him a tenner if they don't like it. So for those who have zero ability to create logos and hardly any budget, this might be a useful service. Surely the biggest risk to the client is they spend nothing and click 'delete' on the image he sends them the next day, and then pay someone more experienced a serious amount of money to come up with something different!
Upvote
0
Latest Articles
-
Andy Burnham's Manifesto for Small Business, and How It Stacks Up Against Count BinfaceIf all goes to plan (or rather, to Labour's timetable), Andy Burnham...- Ozzy
- Updated:
-
SEO in the Age of AI: What UK Small Businesses Actually Need to KnowTL;DR Search has shifted from "ten blue links" to answer engines, and...
- Ozzy
- Updated:
-
What Carphone Warehouse, Microsoft and Uber Have in Common: They Started in a DownturnThere's a comforting myth that you need a booming economy to start...
- Ozzy
- Updated:
-
What Makes a Small Business Actually Sellable?There's a question that a lot of small business owners never think to...
- Ozzy
- Updated:
-
Why Your Team Keeps Asking the Same Questions (And What to Actually Do About It)Every small business owner knows the moment. You're halfway through...
- Ozzy
- Updated:
