Lies and deceit in disciplinary

[mdr999]

Hi everyone

I’m going through a rather complicated disciplinary and grievance at work.

The details of that are irrelevant I think but to keep it short I’ll add later if asked.

So I’ve made a discrimination complaint at work.
A HR manager and my line manager made discriminatory remarks in a pay review meeting.

I complained and because HR were involved they had to bring in an impartial consultant. That’s a contradiction in terms itself when my employer (very large multinational) pays their salary.

In was suspended while the investigation took place and told to speak to nobody at work. I have friends there for over 25 years so not easy after two months.

Anyway, the two in question lied about what they said in the meeting obviously getting their story straight.

The independent consultant says she found my line managers integrity to be spotless. How the hell does she know that after one meeting?
So essentially I’m accused of lying by default.

I’m telling the truth so for this question please take my word for it.

So I’m at a very delicate point because I have some very sensitive information on both parties involved.
My line manager had an affair with another line manager while he/she was living with another colleague.
The HR manager is/was having an affair with another manager and is married with kids.

Now when my integrity is called into question and I’m backed into a corner I think showing their deceit discredits their own integrity.

What are the ramifications of revealing this?
I don’t want it public. I don’t want to hurt innocent people.
But I’m thinking of telling the MD as it’s obvious I’m being pushed out.
There is no legal stance on this is there?
I have known this all along but didn’t want to reveal it, but once they lied I’m pretty much after payback.
My job is gone. I can’t go back whatever the outcome.
But these two need bring down a peg or two.
Any thoughts?

Ethically not great, but necessary.
Legally a grey area?
Like I say. I don’t want anyone hurt besides the two liars. Just informing the MD will have them know that I know and hopefully they’ll never move anywhere but sideways and hopefully have to move jobs.

It’s all I have. Call it revenge of you like, maybe it is but I have no other options to fight these horrible people.

Thanks

 

[Newchodge]

There is nothing illegal about it.

 

[tony84]

It would only be a grey area/illegal if you used it to blackmail them for your job.

Knowing something and proving it/it not seeming like sour grapes is going to be difficult without evidence.

You are also presumably going to need a reference, is that likely to be forthcoming if you do this?

 

[mdr999]

I know but will it help my case discrediting them?
I don’t mind ruining their careers because they have ruined my life.

 

[mdr999]

It would only be a grey area/illegal if you used it to blackmail them for your job.

Knowing something and proving it/it not seeming like sour grapes is going to be difficult without evidence.

You are also presumably going to need a reference, is that likely to be forthcoming if you do this?

The affairs are known by a few people in the office. Not many, but some are aware.
Its not something I’ve invented and they can easily deny. But the MD is not aware and I’m sick of being bullied by these liars.

As for a reference, because of their lies already my hopes for a good reference are not good as it stands now.
What have I to lose?

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Does the affair effect the company, probably not, so why should it make any difference to the MD, people have affairs all the time,

I would guess you had to do something quite serious to get the disciplinary in the first place

No doubt that if others know of the affair then sooner or later it will get to the other halves knowledge and bring agony to them and the offspring if any

 

[BeauLacey]

What was the outcome of your pay review meeting prior to you reporting the comment?
What was the outcome for the independent review? Other than you being falsely called a liar.
are you back at work now.
Could you post the discriminatory comment please

You seem resigned to leaving. What type of industry are you in? Is another similar job obtainable in commuting distance
Why not stay and have some fun while looking for another job. Obviously be on your best behaviour but if they can make a comment then what's the harm in you making a comment when its just the 2 of you, your word against theirs?
FYI - I discovered my boss (HR manger) was having an affair with another member of staff. She resigned shortly after I informed her the secret was safe with me. That wasn't even my intention.

 

[NickGrogan]

My line manager had an affair with another line manager while he/she was living with another colleague.
The HR manager is/was having an affair with another manager and is married with kids.

I don’t want anyone hurt besides the two liars.

If they are having affairs, which you don't know for sure, then you have no way of knowing what their partners do or don't know or what the MD knows.

Its fairly obvious that if the affair is secret and you reveal it, then the families and kids will be hurt too.

I don’t mind ruining their careers

Which will clearly affect their families, right?

I’m going through a rather complicated disciplinary and grievance at work.

The details of that are irrelevant

Given your posts here and attitude, I suspect that the details are highly relevant.

You've claimed discrimination, lost and your first thought is blackmail.

 

[MBE2017]

If I was the MD of your company, I would see your spiteful bile for what it is. I would then be inclined not to even provide a reference, as things are the company will almost certainly give you reference despite what has happened.

Move on a get a life.

 

[mdr999]

If they are having affairs, which you don't know for sure, then you have no way of knowing what their partners do or don't know or what the MD knows.

Its fairly obvious that if the affair is secret and you reveal it, then the families and kids will be hurt too.

It’s true. There is no doubt because I know one of the other people who had the affair.

Which will clearly affect their families, right?

Career wise they’ll get another job.
I don’t want kids to be hurt. But they made their choices as adults.

Given your posts here and attitude, I suspect that the details are highly relevant.

What’s my attitude?
I asked for opinions. Quite nicely I thought.
Considering these people are discriminating against me because of my mental health and have lied about it.

You've claimed discrimination, lost and your first thought is blackmail.

I lost because they lied. I’m trying to prove they are deceitful by informing one person. I can’t tell anyone else or it becomes public. I’m trying to keep it as private as I can.
should I just let them lie and take it on the chin?
No way, but it’s all I have now.
Call it blackmail but it’s not. I’m not after keeping my job. It’s untenable now.
I don’t want anything for myself so you need to get something tangible for it to be blackmail. I just want it know they are liars and using the word integrity alongside their names is laughable.

 

[mdr999]

If I was the MD of your company, I would see your spiteful bile for what it is. I would then be inclined not to even provide a reference, as things are the company will almost certainly give you reference despite what has happened.

Move on a get a life.

I have been discriminated against because of mental health.
You think that’s ok do you?
Spiteful bile?
How do you fight people like this by walking away?
And when you say get a life, what life? I’ll be losing my job and quite possibly my home because of this.
You think it’s ok to just forgive and forget?

 

[Mr D]

Hi everyone

I’m going through a rather complicated disciplinary and grievance at work.

The details of that are irrelevant I think but to keep it short I’ll add later if asked.

So I’ve made a discrimination complaint at work.
A HR manager and my line manager made discriminatory remarks in a pay review meeting.

I complained and because HR were involved they had to bring in an impartial consultant. That’s a contradiction in terms itself when my employer (very large multinational) pays their salary.

In was suspended while the investigation took place and told to speak to nobody at work. I have friends there for over 25 years so not easy after two months.

Anyway, the two in question lied about what they said in the meeting obviously getting their story straight.

The independent consultant says she found my line managers integrity to be spotless. How the hell does she know that after one meeting?
So essentially I’m accused of lying by default.

I’m telling the truth so for this question please take my word for it.

So I’m at a very delicate point because I have some very sensitive information on both parties involved.
My line manager had an affair with another line manager while he/she was living with another colleague.
The HR manager is/was having an affair with another manager and is married with kids.

Now when my integrity is called into question and I’m backed into a corner I think showing their deceit discredits their own integrity.

What are the ramifications of revealing this?
I don’t want it public. I don’t want to hurt innocent people.
But I’m thinking of telling the MD as it’s obvious I’m being pushed out.
There is no legal stance on this is there?
I have known this all along but didn’t want to reveal it, but once they lied I’m pretty much after payback.
My job is gone. I can’t go back whatever the outcome.
But these two need bring down a peg or two.
Any thoughts?

Ethically not great, but necessary.
Legally a grey area?
Like I say. I don’t want anyone hurt besides the two liars. Just informing the MD will have them know that I know and hopefully they’ll never move anywhere but sideways and hopefully have to move jobs.

It’s all I have. Call it revenge of you like, maybe it is but I have no other options to fight these horrible people.

Thanks

Well its either you paying for the impartial consultant or the company doing it. Either way someone has to pay.

Not following how the affairs are your business or the business of the MD.
You find out something then keep it to yourself, coming across as sour grapes won't gain you anything and you never know what impact others can have on your future. And if word gets around about you alleging stuff then what hope for any future career when you tell everyone you cannot be trusted.
Stuff can follow you across careers even.

 

[NickGrogan]

t’s true. There is no doubt because I know one of the other people who had the affair.

You don't know if the MD knows, you dont know if the partner knows, you think you know but you don't.

Career wise they’ll get another job.
I don’t want kids to be hurt. But they made their choices as adults.

The kids are adults? You clearly want everyone to be hurt, to make you feel better - it won't.

What’s my attitude?
I asked for opinions. Quite nicely I thought.
Considering these people are discriminating against me because of my mental health and have lied about it.

You want to blackmail and harass people to make you feel better about an alleged slight.

I don’t want anything for myself so you need to get something tangible for it to be blackmail.

You want revenge, you can pretend it's not blackmailing if you like.

I have been discriminated against because of mental health.

You claimed this, and the claim was rejected, in your employer's opinion they did not discriminate against you.

And when you say get a life, what life? I’ll be losing my job and quite possibly my home because of this.

Which is exactly what you want to happen to them and their children.

What did they say about you, that you thought was discriminatory?

You think it’s ok to just forgive and forget?

It's what adults do.

 

[mdr999]

You don't know if the MD knows, you dont know if the partner knows, you think you know but you don't.



The kids are adults? You clearly want everyone to be hurt, to make you feel better - it won't.



You want to blackmail and harass people to make you feel better about an alleged slight.



You want revenge, you can pretend it's not blackmailing if you like.



You claimed this, and the claim was rejected, in your employer's opinion they did not discriminate against you.



Which is exactly what you want to happen to them and their children.

What did they say about you, that you thought was discriminatory?





It's what adults do.

You know, you sound just like them. All smug and self righteous.

The discrimination didn’t hold up because they lied.
Im not disclosing anything else here because it’s ongoing and could be linked to me by anyone with a little intelligence.

I want to discredit their characters for lying.
All I have is this and it’s a fact. I do know because the person who had the affair is a friend of mine.
Mature and honest adults do what you say.
But I have been seriously damaged by this and I want people to know that bullies can’t be left to get away with this stuff.

Would you say the same if it was racism?
Just walk away?
What’s the difference with mental health?
It seems we are still a minority fighting for equal rights and you don’t seem very sensitive to my situation.

If they hadn’t lied I would not even entertain the thought of this. But to have the independent consultant say I’m lying takes the biscuit.

I would love to just let it go but why should I?
It might not make me feel better but I certainly won’t feel worse.
I’m fighting spite with spite. Walking away is not an option as it’s ongoing.

 

[Mr D]

You know, you sound just like them. All smug and self righteous.

The discrimination didn’t hold up because they lied.
Im not disclosing anything else here because it’s ongoing and could be linked to me by anyone with a little intelligence.

I want to discredit their characters for lying.
All I have is this and it’s a fact. I do know because the person who had the affair is a friend of mine.
Mature and honest adults do what you say.
But I have been seriously damaged by this and I want people to know that bullies can’t be left to get away with this stuff.

Would you say the same if it was racism?
Just walk away?
What’s the difference with mental health?
It seems we are still a minority fighting for equal rights and you don’t seem very sensitive to my situation.

If they hadn’t lied I would not even entertain the thought of this. But to have the independent consultant say I’m lying takes the biscuit.

I would love to just let it go but why should I?
It might not make me feel better but I certainly won’t feel worse.
I’m fighting spite with spite. Walking away is not an option as it’s ongoing.

You are creating consequences for yourself and others.
And solving nothing.

 

[Newchodge]

I know but will it help my case discrediting them?
I don’t mind ruining their careers because they have ruined my life.

I know but will it help my case discrediting them?
I don’t mind ruining their careers because they have ruined my life.

What case? Are you facing a disciplinary or are your unning a grievance?

 

[paulears]

Clearly - you are not thinking straight. If this is the case, because you were ill, or have become ill - thinking logically might be difficult. Are you in a union?

Let's think about your viewpoint. It all hinges on the use and understanding of 'discriminatory'. We can only guess at the circumstances. These tend to be that one party believes they didn't get treated fairly in a meeting intended to review pay.

I can only surmise you did not get a pay rise, or other expected benefit and you are certain they acted in a discriminatory manner. The independent review said they did not. If this person had been appointed by you and paid by you, how do you think the result would have differed, if it is based on a neutral initial stance. Did the two people involved say it was because of your race, religion, gender or politics, as a starter? Or did they use other circumstances you have taken to be a result of one of the protected ones?

Did they say "you are often late", and you have a mobility supplied vehicle that is very unreliable - so you feel that you've been unfairly accused of being late because it isn't your fault your vehicle is bad at starting, and you can't afford to get a new one?

The evidential part would be a simple question. Are you really often late? The reason, though true, is irrelevant.

You cannot penalise somebody for being deaf. You can though, if they repeatedly forget to put their aid in before they leave home, meaning communications are difficult, perhaps safety is compromised and it happens too often to be a simple case of forgetfulness.

"They gave me a written warning because I am deaf" would not be accurate - they gave you a written warning for being late with no excuse or attempt to improve it after the verbal warning.

See the problem - the attitude you have suddenly turned on here, with people who don't know you makes me very suspicious of the circumstances you described. You seem to have a quick trigger. Are you sure this isn't how you behave at work - suddenly flying off the handle? If I was a boss, I'd have to think very hard about rewarding somebody so quick to change their demeanour. You started nice, and degenerated into a spoilt child in a short time. Consider how your behaviour may appear to others. If somebody with mental health issues is abrasive, they really cannot expect to get better treatment than a colleague who is calm, pleasant and nice to chat to. Perception is a 50/50 thing. How others treat you often relates to how you treat them.

 

[BeauLacey]

Walking away is not an option as it’s ongoing.

what is ongoing?

 

[NickGrogan]

You know, you sound just like them. All smug and self righteous.

Perhaps, I benefit from being Autistic (amongst other things, this has been mentioned in previous posts if you want to check), so can be quite direct/abrupt at times.

I want to discredit their characters for lying.

i.e. revenge

I have been discriminated against because of mental health.

You keep saying this but give no examples. You raised a case and no discrimination was found. I thought "innocent until proven guilty" applies to these cases.

As @paulears has said above, just because you think it's discrimination doesn't make it discrimination.

Would you say the same if it was racism?

The same thing, why?

It seems we are still a minority fighting for equal rights and you don’t seem very sensitive to my situation.

It could be that I'm missing something, but who/what are you fighting for?

You had a pay review, didn't get what you wanted, claimed discrimination, still didn't get what you wanted, now you want to ruin multiple peoples lives, which won't get you what you wanted.

As someone with Autism, I can say that you're certainly not fighting for my rights.

 

[mdr999]

Clearly - you are not thinking straight. If this is the case, because you were ill, or have become ill - thinking logically might be difficult. Are you in a union?

Let's think about your viewpoint. It all hinges on the use and understanding of 'discriminatory'. We can only guess at the circumstances. These tend to be that one party believes they didn't get treated fairly in a meeting intended to review pay.

I can only surmise you did not get a pay rise, or other expected benefit and you are certain they acted in a discriminatory manner. The independent review said they did not. If this person had been appointed by you and paid by you, how do you think the result would have differed, if it is based on a neutral initial stance. Did the two people involved say it was because of your race, religion, gender or politics, as a starter? Or did they use other circumstances you have taken to be a result of one of the protected ones?

Did they say "you are often late", and you have a mobility supplied vehicle that is very unreliable - so you feel that you've been unfairly accused of being late because it isn't your fault your vehicle is bad at starting, and you can't afford to get a new one?

The evidential part would be a simple question. Are you really often late? The reason, though true, is irrelevant.

You cannot penalise somebody for being deaf. You can though, if they repeatedly forget to put their aid in before they leave home, meaning communications are difficult, perhaps safety is compromised and it happens too often to be a simple case of forgetfulness.

"They gave me a written warning because I am deaf" would not be accurate - they gave you a written warning for being late with no excuse or attempt to improve it after the verbal warning.

See the problem - the attitude you have suddenly turned on here, with people who don't know you makes me very suspicious of the circumstances you described. You seem to have a quick trigger. Are you sure this isn't how you behave at work - suddenly flying off the handle? If I was a boss, I'd have to think very hard about rewarding somebody so quick to change their demeanour. You started nice, and degenerated into a spoilt child in a short time. Consider how your behaviour may appear to others. If somebody with mental health issues is abrasive, they really cannot expect to get better treatment than a colleague who is calm, pleasant and nice to chat to. Perception is a 50/50 thing. How others treat you often relates to how you treat them.

Fair comment. I’m very angry right now.
The reason for my compliant is they used my sickness record (they know I have serious mental health problems) refusing a fair pay increase.
Two weeks later they have a colleague a large increase.

So I mentioned their comment in my grievance and they denied ever saying anything to do with my sickness.
Now they both have their stories straight and have given the exact same lies to the independent consultant.
Who on their first meeting (allegedly) says they have integrity.
The company go through lots of these so I’m not sure they are Unknown to each other.

I’m telling the truth. Whether you believe me or not, let’s just for arguments sake, say I am.

What choice do I have but to discredit them for making my life a misery?
I can’t go back to work as it’s now on record as I’m a liar (I’m not).

I’m listening to you all and have doubts about what to do. I’m not this type of person who is spiteful and likes hurting people.
I have to live with my disability and am sensitive when it comes to bullying and discrimination.

I don’t want these people to get away with it.
I must add I’m not the first to get treated badly by these people but they are clever in leaving no trails.

 

[mdr999]

Perhaps, I benefit from being Autistic (amongst other things, this has been mentioned in previous posts if you want to check), so can be quite direct/abrupt at times.



i.e. revenge

Is showing they’re lying revenge?
I’m being discredited because they denied saying my illness was a reason for not giving me a deserved pay rise. My colleagues are on more than I. I do a good job admitted by management.

You keep saying this but give no examples. You raised a case and no discrimination was found. I thought "innocent until proven guilty" applies to these cases.

As @paulears has said above, just because you think it's discrimination doesn't make it discrimination.

They denied saying the words. So they must have thought it was important?
If I was making this up I’d have invented a better story than this.


[/QUOTE]
The same thing, why?

There is no difference in discrimination whether it’s racism, sexism, mental health, LGBT etc

It could be that I'm missing something, but who/what are you fighting for?

You had a pay review, didn't get what you wanted, claimed discrimination, still didn't get what you wanted, now you want to ruin multiple peoples lives, which won't get you what you wanted.

As someone with Autism, I can say that you're certainly not fighting for my rights.[/QUOTE]

I’m fighting for fair pay. All my colleagues earn around 20% more than I.
I asked to be put on the same and was told no because of my sickness record
That’s discrimination isn’t it?

They denied ever saying that so you can’t say innocent until proven guilty.
If this went to tribunal they would have no problem lying under oath. But they won’t worry about that because perjury isn’t the same is in a criminal case.

 

[Newchodge]

I asked to be put on the same and was told no because of my sickness record
That’s discrimination isn’t it?

That depends. Was all of your sickness absence a result of a disability?

 

[Newchodge]

But they won’t worry about that because perjury isn’t the same is in a criminal case.

Perjury is perjury. Criminal case, civil case, employment tribunal. Lying on oath is perjury in exactly the same way.

I assume you haven't bothered to join a trade union? If not, I suggest you take all your evidence to a no win no fee employment lawyer and ask their opinion on the possibility of taking a tribunal claim for disability discrimination. That is positive action that you can take, rather than your proposed course of action,.

 

[mdr999]

That depends. Was all of your sickness absence a result of a disability?

Yes. I never take time off for a cold or anything minor.
I had a mental breakdown and took 5 weeks off the previous year.

 

[mdr999]

Perjury is perjury. Criminal case, civil case, employment tribunal. Lying on oath is perjury in exactly the same way.

I assume you haven't bothered to join a trade union? If not, I suggest you take all your evidence to a no win no fee employment lawyer and ask their opinion on the possibility of taking a tribunal claim for disability discrimination. That is positive action that you can take, rather than your proposed course of action,.

I am in a union. I’m talking to them today and will raise my points.
I’m well aware what I may do is wrong.
You guys are my conscience and I’m listening.

 

[Newchodge]

Yes. I never take time off for a cold or anything minor.
I had a mental breakdown and took 5 weeks off the previous year.

Does that count, under the Equalities Act, as a dsiability? A disability has to be a phsical or mental impairment that has a substantial effect on your normal day to day life and which has lasted, or is it expected to last for at least 12 months.

 

[Mr D]

Fair comment. I’m very angry right now.
The reason for my compliant is they used my sickness record (they know I have serious mental health problems) refusing a fair pay increase.
Two weeks later they have a colleague a large increase.

So I mentioned their comment in my grievance and they denied ever saying anything to do with my sickness.
Now they both have their stories straight and have given the exact same lies to the independent consultant.
Who on their first meeting (allegedly) says they have integrity.
The company go through lots of these so I’m not sure they are Unknown to each other.

I’m telling the truth. Whether you believe me or not, let’s just for arguments sake, say I am.

What choice do I have but to discredit them for making my life a misery?
I can’t go back to work as it’s now on record as I’m a liar (I’m not).

I’m listening to you all and have doubts about what to do. I’m not this type of person who is spiteful and likes hurting people.
I have to live with my disability and am sensitive when it comes to bullying and discrimination.

I don’t want these people to get away with it.
I must add I’m not the first to get treated badly by these people but they are clever in leaving no trails.

You have a choice. Just you choose to seek revenge rather than not.

There are others of us with disabilities. Bad sick leave record and all.
Without claiming discrimination, without having discrimination.
And there are times discrimination happens.

You lost, move on. Revenge is a poor meal and does not help you. And can harm you.
There are other jobs. There are places giving pay rises.

 

[mdr999]

Perjury is perjury. Criminal case, civil case, employment tribunal. Lying on oath is perjury in exactly the same way.

I assume you haven't bothered to join a trade union? If not, I suggest you take all your evidence to a no win no fee employment lawyer and ask their opinion on the possibility of taking a tribunal claim for disability discrimination. That is positive action that you can take, rather than your proposed course of action,.

You go to jail for perjury in a criminal court.
If you perjure yourself at a tribunal I’m pretty sure nothing will happen.
I have no proof and they know it.
So I’m left with this thread which is not my normal way of behaving.
If I could return to my job and ignore all this I would. I can’t now as they’ve made me out to be dishonest and a trouble maker just for asking for fair treatment.

 

[mdr999]

Does that count, under the Equalities Act, as a dsiability? A disability has to be a phsical or mental impairment that has a substantial effect on your normal day to day life and which has lasted, or is it expected to last for at least 12 months.

I’ve been in treatment for 24 years. Occupational health class this as disability and have said I’m covered under the equality act.

 

[mdr999]

There’s a consensus here I’m wrong to do what I’ve proposed.
I’m quite sure my union rep will say the same so I thank you all for your opinions.

 

[NickGrogan]

Is showing they’re lying revenge?
I’m being discredited because they denied saying my illness was a reason for not giving me a deserved pay rise. My colleagues are on more than I. I do a good job admitted by management.

You want to show they lied about something else, totally unrelated, with the aim of ruining their careers. Yes, that is revenge.

You think you deserve a pay rise, they don't. That's not discrimination. A good job is not great.

I’m fighting for fair pay. All my colleagues earn around 20% more than I.
I asked to be put on the same and was told no because of my sickness record
That’s discrimination isn’t it?

No, you don't want fair pay, you want equal pay. Perhaps you're worth 20% less than your colleagues?

I've had various jobs of the last 30 years, and only twice was I paid the same as everyone else - my first 2 jobs.

I had a mental breakdown and took 5 weeks off the previous year.

A mental breakdown isn't a medical diagnosis, but OK. So what have you done to improve your skills to make up for the 5 weeks of work you missed? What training/information did you miss out on?

I’ve been in treatment for 24 years.

Is this connected to your "breakdown"? Otherwise it may not be relevant.

I’m well aware what I may do is wrong.
You guys are my conscience and I’m listening.

No we're not.

 

[mdr999]

[/QUOTE] You want to show they lied about something else, totally unrelated, with the aim of ruining their careers. Yes, that is revenge.

They lied about the reason for not giving me a pay rise. You’re not listening are you?

You think you deserve a pay rise, they don't. That's not discrimination. A good job is not great.

I do a damn good job and the reason I’m not on equal pay is discrimination.
It’s fair and an equality issue too.

No, you don't want fair pay, you want equal pay. Perhaps you're worth 20% less than your colleagues?

I've had various jobs of the last 30 years, and only twice was I paid the same as everyone else - my first 2 jobs.

Well there’s a reason for that.
I deserve equal pay.
I’ve been late once in my long tenure.
I’m in early every day and do extra hours every week.
I wouldn’t have even asked for a pay increase or I didn’t deserve it.

A mental breakdown isn't a medical diagnosis, but OK. So what have you done to improve your skills to make up for the 5 weeks of work you missed? What training/information did you miss out on?

You’re a real piece of work aren’t you?
I know my job inside out. I don’t need extra training or catch up on anything.
You have statutory sick pay. There is nothing contractually to say I have to make up the time off.
And yes my mental breakdown is linked. Not even linked. It is all involved in my mental health profile. Which the company are fully aware of.
I proudly am very open about my issues and don’t see it as any different to a broken leg or disease.

Is this connected to your "breakdown"? Otherwise it may not be relevant.

When they blame my lack of pay increase on my breakdown I’d say it’s related.

No we're not.

I was trying to compliment you all.
Thanks for being so understanding.

 

[Newchodge]

You go to jail for perjury in a criminal court.
If you perjure yourself at a tribunal I’m pretty sure nothing will happen.

You go to jail for perjury in ANY court. Please do not try to pontificate about things you know nothing about.

Stick to your case. Talk to your union.

 

[Mr D]

I’ve been in treatment for 24 years. Occupational health class this as disability and have said I’m covered under the equality act.

Treatment for something other than the breakdown.
You can be disabled and have something that isn't classed as a disability happen too.

 

[mdr999]

You go to jail for perjury in ANY court. Please do not try to pontificate about things you know nothing about.

Stick to your case. Talk to your union.

Ok as you’re in employment law, what would you advise?
I’m accused of lying about HR saying these things, thus making me look like a trouble maker?
My reputation is at stake because they’re lying.

 

[Newchodge]

Ok as you’re in employment law, what would you advise?
I’m accused of lying about HR saying these things, thus making me look like a trouble maker?
My reputation is at stake because they’re lying.

I have given you my advice, more than once

Stick to your case. Talk to your union.

 

[paulears]

I'm not an expert - but discriminate is a fairly tightly described word, and is usually prefixed with unfair. If, because of your disability your attendance is poorer than somebody else, then you're clearly protected from being fired for it, but pay rises are not in most organisations a right, they're in return for performance. If your colleague has a worse sickness record than you, then the 'unfair' tag could perhaps be applied, but if his record is better than yours, then rewarding him and not you may be perfectly fair and justified. They didn't penalise you, but you didn't get something that is performance related? You can't say that's discrimination because he performed better. If your health prevented you making sales in a commission based salary, would you actually expect to get it? Think back to the wording they used - did they not give you a pay rise because of your disability, that could be deemed as quite proper. Did they cut your pay, move you to a worse job, or somehow lower your status, or did they just say no to a pay rise because your sickness record was poorer than other workers?

Think about how a tribunal, or a 'Judge Judy' would view this in terms of fairness. Should an employer give performance related pay rises to people who have NOT performed better just because they are disabled or just less able? Any illness is not their fault. If they paid some people in full for being ill for a physical issue like a broken leg, but put the mentally ill on SSP, that would be unfair. In your case - they simply didn't give you something that is an option. If the reason for not doing it is a testable one - days off, lateness, lack of sales - something tangible, then how would a judge view it (not you?) Are they being unfair? Was their reason discriminatory = we didn't give you a pay rise because you've been off a lot? Is that factual? I don't personally think that is discriminatory, if it's a fact. Demoting you would be unfair, but not rewarding you isn't - in my humble and unlegally trained brain. I once didn't get an advancement because I can't dance. The job didn't involve me having to dance, just deal with dancers. I thought it unfair, but it was simply practical.

 

[NickGrogan]

They lied about the reason for not giving me a pay rise. You’re not listening are you?

Its a large multinational company, what do they have to gain from not giving you a rise. I'm listening, I just disagree.

I do a damn good job and the reason I’m not on equal pay is discrimination.
It’s fair and an equality issue too.

They think you do a "good" job - your words, you're being paid for a good job.

I deserve equal pay.
I’ve been late once in my long tenure.
I’m in early every day and do extra hours every week.

If you're doing extra every day, is it because you can't complete your work during normal hours.

I know my job inside out. I don’t need extra training or catch up on anything.
You have statutory sick pay. There is nothing contractually to say I have to make up the time off.

No, you're right, you don't have too. And employers don't have to give wage rises to employees that don't deserve them. There is nothing contractually so say you have to get a wage rise.

I proudly am very open about my issues and don’t see it as any different to a broken leg or disease.

Yet you haven't said what your issues are, even when asked directly, by someone who is open about their own issues.

When they blame my lack of pay increase on my breakdown I’d say it’s related.

Not if you want to claim discrimination.

You don't have a case, you haven't been "hurt" or affected, move on.
Get better at your job, earn more.
Stop whinging and blaming everyone but yourself.
You'll be much happier.

 

[mdr999]

I'm not an expert - but discriminate is a fairly tightly described word, and is usually prefixed with unfair. If, because of your disability your attendance is poorer than somebody else, then you're clearly protected from being fired for it, but pay rises are not in most organisations a right, they're in return for performance. If your colleague has a worse sickness record than you, then the 'unfair' tag could perhaps be applied, but if his record is better than yours, then rewarding him and not you may be perfectly fair and justified. They didn't penalise you, but you didn't get something that is performance related? You can't say that's discrimination because he performed better. If your health prevented you making sales in a commission based salary, would you actually expect to get it? Think back to the wording they used - did they not give you a pay rise because of your disability, that could be deemed as quite proper. Did they cut your pay, move you to a worse job, or somehow lower your status, or did they just say no to a pay rise because your sickness record was poorer than other workers?

Think about how a tribunal, or a 'Judge Judy' would view this in terms of fairness. Should an employer give performance related pay rises to people who have NOT performed better just because they are disabled or just less able? Any illness is not their fault. If they paid some people in full for being ill for a physical issue like a broken leg, but put the mentally ill on SSP, that would be unfair. In your case - they simply didn't give you something that is an option. If the reason for not doing it is a testable one - days off, lateness, lack of sales - something tangible, then how would a judge view it (not you?) Are they being unfair? Was their reason discriminatory = we didn't give you a pay rise because you've been off a lot? Is that factual? I don't personally think that is discriminatory, if it's a fact. Demoting you would be unfair, but not rewarding you isn't - in my humble and unlegally trained brain. I once didn't get an advancement because I can't dance. The job didn't involve me having to dance, just deal with dancers. I thought it unfair, but it was simply practical.

All fair points again.
But they directly said it’s related to my sickness record.
So when asked about this they both deny saying it.
Hence, they are worried about their reasons for not agreeing to the pay increase.
They have no other reasons.
My performance is excellent otherwise.
They know they dropped the ball blaming it on my sickness and are now closing ranks.

Its all about their denial.
They know what they said and are backtracking.

And I’ll add I’ve had 2 sick days since (in one year)
Not too shabby I’d say even though I struggle every day.

 

[Mr D]

And I’ll add I’ve had 2 sick days since (in one year)
Not too shabby I’d say even though I struggle every day.

That sick record may well be better than the average for the firm.