LED Lighting

Discussion in 'Green Business' started by Rhyl Lightworks, Dec 6, 2008.

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  1. Rickden

    Rickden UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    I had bought led light for my motorcycle from motoledlightkits lst yesr, Lights look great on my bike, bought two kits (one for each side) as a kit only has 4 lights.
    Posted: Jul 25, 2017 By: Rickden Member since: Jul 24, 2017
  2. TLT Property Management

    TLT Property Management UKBF Contributor Free Member

    31 1
    I got led tubes in my office and they are great imported from China as well but it is a hit and miss with the quality. Some fail after a couple month others run for 5 plus years no issues.
    Posted: Sep 5, 2017 By: TLT Property Management Member since: Sep 4, 2017
  3. MBE2017

    MBE2017 UKBF Ace Free Member

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    LED lighting is well worth considering for companies, payback on outlay can be very fast, sometimes under 2 years, and you can use the savings to pay for the new lights on some Gov schemes.

    So after payback has been achieved the savings on your bills are yours to keep, but look at several decent companies, loads of cheaper rubbish is being offered as with al booming markets.
    Posted: Sep 25, 2017 By: MBE2017 Member since: Feb 16, 2017
  4. Karimbo

    Karimbo UKBF Ace Free Member

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    I sell LED light strip fixtures and fittings, dont touch LED lights though, too risky. You can't trust cheap chinese factory electrics that you source from alibaba. I would advise everyone to stay clear of ebay LED bulbs and LED strip power plugs that aren't sourced from a reputable british retailer. You can end up turning your house to ashes if you get cheap ones that blow up and catch fire.

    A lot of them are unsafe, bigclivedotcom (youtuber) does reviews of cheap electrics and has done a lot on LED and other mains powered devices. One LED bulb where there is a live exposed wire running through an LED circuit that can electocute you. Not a 12v wire but an actual 230v wire.
    Posted: Sep 29, 2017 By: Karimbo Member since: Nov 5, 2011
  5. paulears

    paulears UKBF Big Shot Full Member

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    I thought I'd resurrect this topic because there's almost panic setting in in the theatre industry, as their lighting is effectively being outlawed by EU legislation and 2020 seems to be the end to theatre and entertainment lighting as we know it - theatres, clubs, pubs, schools, colleges, amateur dramatics, music venues - all have equipment that will become landfill. The expensive LED lighting we've been investing in also fails the test! Mixing colours from light sources cannot break the laws of physics so none of the manufacturers can meet the target, and have no equipment in the pipeline to do so. It's not just lamps - that story is a tiny bit of it. It means equipment, some installed in the 50's and still in use, with a few safety mods to make sure electrically, they're ok - will become a big problem. So serious somebody asked Patrick Woodroffe - who lights the mega bands and singer, plus did the Olympics how he will light the next Rolling Stones tour - and he said he can't. Nothing he can buy will do the job. Previously, entertainment lighting had an exemption - from 2020, it won't! More info here. https://uktheatre.org/who-we-are-what-we-do/uk-theatre-blog/save-stage-lighting/
    Posted: May 2, 2018 By: paulears Member since: Jan 7, 2015
  6. Karimbo

    Karimbo UKBF Ace Free Member

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    Hi Paul

    I'm sure by then LED equivalents would be made which can substitute the stage lighting. Or the industry changes and uses whatever LED lights are available.

    I do think it's a bit draconian to force the old lights to be made redundant - it would be a better compromise to outlaw sales of the old style bulbs from 2020 so when the lights die, they are replaced by compliant ones.
    Posted: May 2, 2018 By: Karimbo Member since: Nov 5, 2011
  7. paulears

    paulears UKBF Big Shot Full Member

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    That's the trouble - the physics doesn't allow it, so none of the manufacturers even have a plan available. The actual problem is colour mixing. Additive mixing of red, green and blue LEDs to create white. These LEDs have multiple elements in one, which cannot then meet the specs. One thought is that we simply use a white LED, that would meet the spec, the use subtractive mixing with cyan, magenta and yellow dichroic graduated mechanical colour wheels - which would produce the same range of colours - but would be wasteful of energy, but would meet the specs - which is plainly daft. I was just about to buy 5 RGB fixtures for a summer job, at over two grand each. Needless to say, I'm servicing this project with hired in stock, which is safer - but the project would have paid off 50% of the purchase price, which makes future jobs for them cheap, and then free - hiring in is just an expense. The hire company just invested in 40 of them!

    As for lamps - some of our lighting does already have LED replacements for the old tungsten lamps. They're not a direct replacement as the colour is different - a much colder white, but the cost is prohibitive - over a grand, going in a ten year old fixture worth perhaps £200? Most of us are stockpiling lamps - which is the best thing to do. The big problem with entertainment lighting is that it is not workshop lighting or shop display lighting. It's artistic, and nobody wants to make short run LED replacements = and for many of the specialist lights we use, LEDs simply cannot do what we need to project images, and have good beam quality - and worse of all, most LEDs are rubbish at dimming. At the bottom of their output, they drop in very obvious steps - no done minute sunsets, because you see the abrupt drops in light. They also have technical problems - we use dimmers, and very few LED replacements work properly with dimmers. The brand new fixtures don't need dimmers - they are controlled externally - so while you can buy for a school say, a 650W Fresnel lensed spotlight for around a hundred quid. There is NO direct plug in replacement, and the nearest thing that might require a new lighting control and electrical wiring changes is around £800 - add on a grand or two for wiring changes, a couple of grand for a new lighting control - and the drama space will remain lit by fluorescent tubes when the theatre types pop a lamp, and they cannot buy a new one. Same with clubs and pubs - when their supplier stops supplying the lamps, and they have to spend over a hundred quid on the nearest, cheapest option - what happens.

    Anyone seen a West End show in the past couple of years? NONE of these could have been lit with compliant lighting - none! Do you remember those vibrant, wonderful colours - the shafts of light in the air? Forget those - they'll have some workshop lights to use. Look at any of the Strictly/X-Factor/BGT shows? All those beams in the air creating those great shapes? Yep, they're gone too. All those amazing deep blues? Gone. The cleaner's lights will be absolutely fine - they will stay happy. This is the snag. Physics sets a limit to power conversion into light output. Colour uses only a small part of the spectrum - so making white from 3 colours takes 3 times the power, making the total power look bad, compared to car park lighting power consumption. The legislation makes no mention of this. If you complete, or try to complete, the EU response document, it's bogged down with tumble driers, dishwashers and TVs, lighting is considered only for illumination. If it isn't stopped, plenty of things will just not happen.
    Posted: May 3, 2018 By: paulears Member since: Jan 7, 2015
  8. Chris Ashdown

    Chris Ashdown UKBF Legend Free Member

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    Whilst I can understand your concerns as a expert in that field, and it does seem a very short timeframe to operate in. Would the general public really notice any difference and should not the directors make more use of the lights available to compensate against any loss

    We all shouted about hoovers with their reduced power but everyone seems to have pushed development to new improved ones, and the same with cars always meeting new environmental restrictions

    But again whilst you experts will notice will any other person going to shows maybe once or twice a year
    Posted: May 3, 2018 By: Chris Ashdown Member since: Dec 7, 2003
  9. paulears

    paulears UKBF Big Shot Full Member

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    Listen here - about 9 mins in, just after super trouper (which ironically, if you didn't know - is big powerful followspot, used to follow people around a stage, and a product that as yet - hasn't;t been equalled with an LED unit, and probably won't be!)

    It's a fairly balanced insert on a radio programme - and explained quite well.

    To Karimbo - in application, it's the loss of the old lamps that is making scrapping the old ones likely, and while the lamps will be finally banned in 2020 - it seems off that perfectly serviceable equipment is scrapped because of a lamp! However - somebody today suggested the Chinese will probably carry on making them and we can import the illegal lamps from them, as nobody seems to check imported goods that are anything other than counterfeits.
    Last edited: May 3, 2018
    Posted: May 3, 2018 By: paulears Member since: Jan 7, 2015
  10. Chris Ashdown

    Chris Ashdown UKBF Legend Free Member

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    On Navy warships in the 60's we used to use 25 inch searchlights (size may be slightly different) they operated via a arc between a sick of carbon and a contact to produce a massive amount of light

    Jump forward and the helicopters had a light called something like "Night to day"that far exceeded the power of the searchlight

    Anyone my age who new Abba songs would understand what a super trouper was

    The point, nothing makes more investment into development, than a short time limit, and whats not commercially affordable today, can soon become affordable in a very short time if the market for quantity is there.
    Posted: May 4, 2018 By: Chris Ashdown Member since: Dec 7, 2003
  11. paulears

    paulears UKBF Big Shot Full Member

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    The snag is that we're almost at the practical limit for power from a certain size package. Martin, Robe and Clay Paky, the world market leaders say it's not practical for LEDs to go above a certain brightness because the heat cannot be removed. Already, the 200W LEDs have huge heat-sinks, that just about cope, so they could make them brighter, and use subtractive colour systems - but the size of the units would be huge - and of course the only solution is forced cooling, which makes noise, which again, rules them out. Already, some of the more powerful units can't be used for plays. The specs were drawn up for white light, which is what it's all about for car parks, security work light replacements - nobody gave any thought to colours! The TV people aren't immune from the problem because they use different colour temperature LEDs so they can adjust to suit shooting requirements - so are labelled 'wasteful'. As Captain Kirk was told frequently, "Ye canna change the laws of physics, Captain"
    Posted: May 4, 2018 By: paulears Member since: Jan 7, 2015
  12. The Byre

    The Byre UKBF Legend Full Member

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    If I may make a plea for the film industry - modern digital film cameras cannot get a clear colour image from LEDs.

    The reasons are simple - LEDs 'transmit' light on three discrete frequencies. Digital cameras receive (like the human eye) the light on three discrete frequencies. These frequencies are absolute, unlike the broad spectrum of light we get from incandescent lamps.

    Unfortunately, these frequencies do not match from camera-to-light, leaving what appears to the human eye as white, sometimes having a ghastly green tone that is close to impossible to get rid of in post-production colour grading. On other occasions, I have seen a grey shirt appear on screen as having a whole range of unwanted colours, with the shadows deep purple and the highlights tipping into red or yellow.

    There's nothing quite as frustrating as having a sober news interview with a man in a grey suit, who turns into some hippy-like psychedelic, multi-coloured clothed freak with a green face when you get the footage into the editing suite.

    To get a proper colour balance and get that 'filmic' look, one uses old-fashioned incandescent lights. The bigger budget movies often even still use 35mm film stock (Nolan, Spielberg and others) which is less likely to fall over into unwanted colour ranges, though the speed and convenience of digital (as well as the lower costs and greater light-sensitivity) means that even Cameron has flipped over to digital (Arri-Alexa) with most made-for-TV movies done on 'Reds' or Blackmagic-Design cameras.

    The idea that certain types of lights are going to be banned makes as much sense as banning candles, or telling a painter that he/she must no longer use oils and from now on, only acrylic paints are allowed.

    We are not illuminating the local swimming pool or the office lavatory. Light is the paint with which the cinematographer and the stage lighting designer paints. In a rom-com, we know that She loves Him, because a single old-fashioned light bulb is reflected in her eyes - a little spot of light that looks like a star, set in her eyeball, that sets the mood to 'romantic'.

    LEDs are great for some things - mostly because they use about one-sixth the energy (don't believe all that one-tenth lark, it ain't true!) That makes location shoots easier and reduces costs for things like cables and generators. BUT ordinary LEDs flash on and off and even the 'dimmable' LEDs used in households simply flash on less for lower light levels, so special LEDs and controllers need to be bought to avoid a strobing effect in the picture. These are far less efficient and fairly expensive.

    LEDs for stage work have been wildly successful. Old fashioned cans had to have filter gels that set the light to just one colour and needed bulky dimmer-packs. LEDs can be set to any colour and can of course change colour and do not need dimmer packs. The lower power requirements mean that old cabling can handle brighter staging. LEDs weigh less, so gantries and flies can carry more lighting. LEDs integrate better into a computer controlled DMX environment - but I would not want to see all other types of lighting banished with the same short-sighted hysteria with which politicians and bureaucrats have attacked Diesel cars.

    My kitchen has induction hobs, halogen hobs and a wood-burning stove and I use all three for different types of cooking. As much as I love the speed and efficiency of induction, I want all three for different things.
    Last edited: May 4, 2018
    Posted: May 4, 2018 By: The Byre Member since: Aug 13, 2013
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