How do you spot a good PPC - SEO company

[mingmong1]

We are in the Vintage Leather Sofa market.
We manufacture and sell direct.
We have used GOOGLE adwords with great results for 4 years.
We spend between £500 and £1000 per month but if a return was there we could increase.
We do all adwords in house by trial ad error ( no formal IT training )
We are now pretty stagnent with revenue and are wondering if a pro Ads cosultant may be worth using?

How do you spot a good from bad one?
What should we be paying ( being quoted around £200 pm )
As anyone got any real/genuine good recommendations for consultants they have used?

Any comments welcomed

 

[robertt]

Ideally I would look to migrate the PPC budget to SEO budget and link build like that.

No doubt you will get alot of people on here offering services and the like - but ask for proper examples of say linkbuilding - what is the best link they have achieved?

If its some poxy directory or the like then move on, if its BBC News or the like, then you are on the right track.

 

[mingmong1]

We will look at SEO.
The problem is we get 10 cold calls a day from SEOs. I simply ask them for thier top 3 clients and what arena they are in. I then search under a generic term relating to that industry...and guess what - the clients they represent never appear!!!!!

But we have magnificent reults with Adwords, just want to see if we are missing any tricks. Is there anything a pro - consultant can offer us?

 

Steve Gibson comes with recommendations from many members.

http://www.stevegibsonconsulting.co.uk/testimonials.html

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/member.php?u=4385

Earl

 

[maxh]

What's your average cost per enquiry on PPC?

Ideally you want a company that will run your PPC and SEO/SEM. £200 p/m wont get you much. For that I would spend maybe 4 hours on your site a month, and not being fully immersed in your company I wouldn't do my best work.

I recommend you get someone to do it in-house. Pay them 20-25 k

 

[seo next]

We have worked for a lot of clients in furniture industry, and unline what you said all our clients appear in top 5 Mostly in positions 1 and 2
Outdoor Furniture
Cane furniture
conservatory furniture
handmade beds
sleigh beds
chesterfield sofa
And many many more ...
Feel free to contact us for a friendly chat !!

 

[eog]

What's your average cost per enquiry on PPC?

Ideally you want a company that will run your PPC and SEO/SEM. £200 p/m wont get you much. For that I would spend maybe 4 hours on your site a month, and not being fully immersed in your company I wouldn't do my best work.

I recommend you get someone to do it in-house. Pay them 20-25 k

I'm sorry, but that’s terrible advice! Regardless of how low the OP has estimated his budget you have suggested he spends at least 10 times that?

Can you seriously say that you are going to get somebody talented for a measly 20-25k? After all you have valued yourself at 91k a year based on a 35 hour week, yet you think that his money will be better spent hiring someone at a quarter of that.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

We have used GOOGLE adwords with great results for 4 years.
We spend between £500 and £1000 per month but if a return was there we could increase.
We do all adwords in house by trial ad error ( no formal IT training )
We are now pretty stagnent with revenue and are wondering if a pro Ads cosultant may be worth using?

I'm booked up at the moment, so I'm not throwing my hat in the ring - but here's my advice:

If you've been running it yourself for a while and been having some success, you should have enough of a clue to understand what an adwords manager is saying to you. That should be a big help.

If you're hiring someone because you hope they can do a better job than you're doing yourself, then whoever you hire should suggest he/she looks at your campaign before they offer their management services.

Otherwise, how would they know if they can add value?

So anyone not offering to do that should be rejected.

When they do look at it, they should be able to give a broad outline of what they're going to do for you and why that'll improve the performance.

And that outline should make sense.

Finally, how they suggest they work for you should make sense. If it seems convoluted and a bit fishy, walk away. There's no need for it to be that way.

Hope this helps,

Steve

 

[maxh]

I'm sorry, but that’s terrible advice! Regardless of how low the OP has estimated his budget you have suggested he spends at least 10 times that?

Can you seriously say that you are going to get somebody talented for a measly 20-25k? After all you have valued yourself at 91k a year based on a 35 hour week, yet you think that his money will be better spent hiring someone at a quarter of that.

You're right, I rushed that last bit.

OP, consider what you would stand to gain from a massive increase in sales.

As you sell quality goods I imagine you make a fair bit from each sale?

for the £25k mark you could get someone dropping a ton of links for you, but I agree their on-site skills and general SEM would be inadequate.

You want someone to spend a good 10 hours a week doing this for you. You may find you need a new website, better design, better code, better architecture, more links (for sure) affiliates, referal deals, market analytics etc etc..

for £200 a month you would get a 15 yr old filipino running your site through SEnuke, an article spinner and then churning out "SEO reports" in webCEO or ranktracker. Which will tell you nothing, but oh my do they look pretty!

Find an SEO that has a good record and provable results. Chose one that is white hat and most importantly is not a specialist. SEO's need a balance of marketing (understanding people) and technical (understanding computers/google)

What are you pulling in at the moment with your current spend?

And how much do you think the market can support?

 

[Annoying Donkey]

How do you spot a good from bad one?

IMHO by their performance Testimonials are all well and good, but all too often these testimonials will be from people who are not qualified to judge. Example: a few years ago I was asked to have a look at a piece of software that a guy was having problems with. I fiddled and found a config option which fixed the issue. From then on, the guy extolled my virtues as an 'expert', yet I know little about the software. Pity anyone who took his recommendations seriously

You have experience, so specify what you want, talk to several people and see who you think you can work with, and who makes sense (as per Steve Gibsons advice). Then try one out and look at the results. You'll soon know if they are worthwhile.

What should we be paying ( being quoted around £200 pm )

I would say that is on the cheap side, but doesn't necessarily mean you'll get a duffer.

Looks like you have a nice little niche there - doesn't seem to be that much SEO competition, so you might want to consider spending some of your budget on SEO. Depending on who you tak to, you might get 4 times as many clicks by ranking well in the organic search.

 

[RedEvo]

being quoted around £200 pm

That buys about 8 hours of a mid range freelancer, maybe 5 hours of a high level freelancer, 4 hours of a cheap company and maybe 2.5 hours of a decent agency.

d

 

[harryboon]

People want everything for nothing - of course for a small local business £200 could boost their rankings in some shape or form.

What I find hard to understand with people and SEO is that when I used to tell a business it's going to cost £2k a month they would 'freak out' about the cost, yet they would be happy to spend £5k on a few adverts in magazines etc, with little or no results.

A company once came to me who were spending £200k a year on offline advertising - local newspapers, local radio etc but not seeing the results they wanted - but they wouldn't pay us £5k a month for SEO.

Crazy really, they came back to me about a year later...... anyway rant over - good afternoon UKBF

 

[Ali-v-8]

you are fixating on the wrong this. (ok may be not entirely)
£200 a month for your industry in not enough.

If you feel it is too much then i am out too. Sofa companies pay thousands every month to maintain their positions.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

Sofa companies pay thousands every month to maintain their positions.

'vintage leather sofa' doesn't seem to have much competition. I'd agree if it was mainstream furniture, but there are several low competition keywords in this niche getting decent searches that I found on a quick check.

And the £200 is PPC management. The PPC budget is £500-£1000, some of which directed to SEO would get them a return fairly quickly IMHO.

Perhaps we should have a competition, see who can rank quickest, prize is a free vintage leather suite and an SEO/PPC contract

 

[Colin Parker]

People want everything for nothing - of course for a small local business £200 could boost their rankings in some shape or form.

What I find hard to understand with people and SEO is that when I used to tell a business it's going to cost £2k a month they would 'freak out' about the cost, yet they would be happy to spend £5k on a few adverts in magazines etc, with little or no results.

A company once came to me who were spending £200k a year on offline advertising - local newspapers, local radio etc but not seeing the results they wanted - but they wouldn't pay us £5k a month for SEO.

Crazy really, they came back to me about a year later...... anyway rant over - good afternoon UKBF

I totally understand where you are coming from ie., many businesses will pay high prices for offline advertising but won't pay similar prices for SEO.

But, with offline advertising at least you know exactly how much you are spending and exactly what you get ie., a certain size ad in a newspaper for a fixed price. Even if the ad produces zero business you know your maximum loss.

The problem with SEO for many businesses is they don't know - or have no confidence in - what their maximum expenditure might be for any given result.

For example; if I wanted to rank in a top 3 position for the term 'property investment' can you (or any other SEO) tell me a) how long it would take and b) how much it will cost and c) how you can in anyway guarantee your answers to questions a and b.

Colin Parker

 

[Annoying Donkey]

For example; if I wanted to rank in a top 3 position for the term 'property investment' can you (or any other SEO) tell me a) how long it would take and b) how much it will cost and c) how you can in anyway guarantee your answers to questions a and b.

I think you're asking the wrong question... You're basically telling the SEO how to do his job.

a) I would ask why this keyword? Why not, say, 'commercial property investment' easier to rank and will bring traffic sooner, potentially start making you money earlier and is long tail for 'property investment'.
b) You'd be shooting at a potentially moving target. What you should ask is 'how long before I see profit'...
c) Does it really matter if you are in top 3 for this keyword? I would imagine it would take a while and cost a bit to stay there, for what purpose? When you could potentially pay less for other keywords which would be profitable sooner.

IMHO It is the SEO's job to find keywords that can be ranked sooner and easier so his work pays for itself. If you dictate what keywords he should use, then the results are on your own head...

 

[Colin Parker]

I think you're asking the wrong question... You're basically telling the SEO how to do his job.

a) I would ask why this keyword? Why not, say, 'commercial property investment' easier to rank and will bring traffic sooner, potentially start making you money earlier and is long tail for 'property investment'.
b) You'd be shooting at a potentially moving target. What you should ask is 'how long before I see profit'...
c) Does it really matter if you are in top 3 for this keyword? I would imagine it would take a while and cost a bit to stay there, for what purpose? When you could potentially pay less for other keywords which would be profitable sooner.

IMHO It is the SEO's job to find keywords that can be ranked sooner and easier so his work pays for itself. If you dictate what keywords he should use, then the results are on your own head...

Wow!!!

I ask a direct question that I want a direct answer to ... and you tell me I am asking the wrong question?!

I am a very experienced IM, fully understand long tail keywords, and well able to give an SEO a full brief of exactly what I want. And in this case exactly what I want is a direct answer to the direct question I asked.

So ... are you able to answer that direct question without giving me a lecture about the question you think I should be asking?

Colin Parker

 

I am a very experienced IM, fully understand long tail keywords, and well able to give an SEO a full brief of exactly what I want.

In that case it don't sound like you need an SEO consultant.

Weblinkplus is 100% on the button in his approach.

Earl

 

[downsouth]

For example; if I wanted to rank in a top 3 position for the term 'property investment' can you (or any other SEO) tell me a) how long it would take and b) how much it will cost and c) how you can in anyway guarantee your answers to questions a and b.

I think you're asking the wrong question... You're basically telling the SEO how to do his job.

a) I would ask why this keyword? Why not, say, 'commercial property investment' easier to rank and will bring traffic sooner, potentially start making you money earlier and is long tail for 'property investment'.
b) You'd be shooting at a potentially moving target. What you should ask is 'how long before I see profit'...
c) Does it really matter if you are in top 3 for this keyword? I would imagine it would take a while and cost a bit to stay there, for what purpose? When you could potentially pay less for other keywords which would be profitable sooner.

IMHO It is the SEO's job to find keywords that can be ranked sooner and easier so his work pays for itself. If you dictate what keywords he should use, then the results are on your own head...

So ... are you able to answer that direct question without giving me a lecture about the question you think I should be asking?

To be honest this the space that lots of people find themselves in, i'm am actually 'looking' for some SEO assistance in readiness for next year (Seasonal products) and I hear a lot of hot air being spouted on this n that but no-one can answer a direct question, for lots of companies budget is very restrictive so they need to know what they can get for X budget, now if it can be demonstrated that a larger budget could bring them in Y allowing enough to merit the larger outlay then they might consider that approach, as it will be better in the long run.

 

[Colin Parker]

In that case it don't sound like you need an SEO consultant.

Weblinkplus is 100% on the button in his approach.

Earl

Who says I need an SEO consultant?

I am simply asking a specific question ... what IS the problem in answering it?

Or is that SEO's don't like to be pinned down and prefer to set their own rules for clients - and if the client won't play by the SEO's rule then the SEO throws the dummy out of the pram?

Because that's what it sounds like to me.

I asked what I think is a fairly simple question ... can any SEO give me any answer?

Colin Parker

 

[directmarketingadvice]

a) I would ask why this keyword?

Let's say the answer was "I run adwords for the exact match and want to know if it would be more cost effective to spend that money on SEO", then what would your answers be to Colin's 3 questions?

Steve

 

[Colin Parker]

I've transferred this post to a new thread.

Colin Parker

 

[Annoying Donkey]

I ask a direct question that I want a direct answer to ...

a/ 3-6 months.
b/ £50,000,000.
c/ I guarantee that if I don't achieve the desired rank you get 10% of the fee back subject to small print...

 

[MagnifyB]

How do you spot a good from bad one?
What should we be paying ( being quoted around £200 pm )
As anyone got any real/genuine good recommendations for consultants they have used?

As mentioned earlier in this thread, as you have been doing PPC in-house for a number of years you will have a grasp of the concepts and therefore should be able to let if they are good or bad from their answers. Also they should be asking you questions too about the aims, desired CPA or lead volume and getting a general feel for your business.

It has also been mentioned that you should swap your PPC budget for SEO. I slightly disagree with this. What works effectively is PPC and SEO together. But of course that takes more budget. You will find though that a competent PPC marketer will increase your ROI whilst looking to decrease your marketing spend. This increase in sales and decrease in spend can then be off-set for an SEO budget.

There are some very good PPC marketers out there that may not have got a bucket load of testimonials for varying reasons. For example they could be a new start up company but the person behind it has years of experience in the PPC marketing field.

 

[dagaul101]

Well the good ones for starters have the Adwords Professional Certification, so that with those guys

 

[Colin Parker]

a/ 3-6 months.
b/ £50,000,000.
c/ I guarantee that if I don't achieve the desired rank you get 10% of the fee back subject to small print...

Yawwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnn .......

Colin Parker

 

[directmarketingadvice]

But of course that takes more budget. You will find though that a competent PPC marketer will increase your ROI whilst looking to decrease your marketing spend.

Not necessarily.

As the campaign (and site) become more profitable, that can allow you to bid on previously unprofitable (but now profitable) keywords.

Steve

 

[lulu1979]

Poor OP!

Spot a good one is really hard in SEO in my experience. PPC is much more straightforward I am sure. Steve gotta be one of the best for sure.

SEOs are plenty who just go and spin some articles for you and submit your site to directories, even the so called pros do just that. There are a few interesting threads around right now about SEO just go and read them, maybe you will learn something.

But again SEOs how can you do a conten based SEO when you know nothing about the product when you start the work. Worked with 3 SEOs in the days when I knew nothing about SEO and none of them even tried to go out there and find me some good relevant sites and try to get a link from them, not the slightest. For 1k I got some article spinning social bookmarking and directory submission, and it was a recommended SEO, or rather a joke!? Ok I know 1k not much but any indian firm can spin me an article for 35 pounds. Do social bookmarking for 20 pounds and directories for the same.
Seriosly. If you have a retail site, the chances are that no1 will link to them just out of good will or interest are very very high. Attach a blog to it and try to create good content, hmm.. you need excellent conten, outstanding content, something that is nowhere else to be found, then you might just pick up a few natural links.
An information site or blog in your niche is NOT going to link to you just for your excellent content, you have to offer them something (cash) to do that. And those are the most valuable links!
Hope that helps

 

[Annoying Donkey]

Let's say the answer was "I run adwords for the exact match and want to know if it would be more cost effective to spend that money on SEO", then what would your answers be to Colin's 3 questions?

Steve

I've nabbed this as an idea for an article. As and when/if I get around to it (or a square one ) I'll respond...

 

[Annoying Donkey]

But again SEOs how can you do a conten based SEO when you know nothing about the product when you start the work. Worked with 3 SEOs in the days when I knew nothing about SEO and none of them even tried to go out there and find me some good relevant sites and try to get a link from them, not the slightest. For 1k I got some article spinning social bookmarking and directory submission, and it was a recommended SEO, or rather a joke!? Ok I know 1k not much but any indian firm can spin me an article for 35 pounds. Do social bookmarking for 20 pounds and directories for the same.

Herein lies the problem with recommendations and testimonials. Those making the recommendation are likely as ignorant of the subject as you are, hence not something I feel anyone should rely on.

1k divided across 3 SEOs is certainly not much, and you don't state the time frame or the niche. Just because you got done by some monkeys doesn't make all SEO bad... It may be that that was all they could do within the budget.

 

[lorr]

Hi

the guy i use is good www ppc guy .net

lorr

 

[lulu1979]

Herein lies the problem with recommendations and testimonials. Those making the recommendation are likely as ignorant of the subject as you are, hence not something I feel anyone should rely on.

1k divided across 3 SEOs is certainly not much, and you don't state the time frame or the niche. Just because you got done by some monkeys doesn't make all SEO bad... It may be that that was all they could do within the budget.

Where am i ignorant? Well 1k was just for one SEO
It was almost a year ago, since then i took the quality link building into my hand and got a pretty good result. I just do not see how an SEO is going to approach all of those sites I did in my niche and ask them for a link, of course most of the time for something in exchange. I mean you have to offer discounts, or some money to blog owners and so on, anyway thats what i did. Send 200 personalised email to webmasters and had about 10% success rate which is not too bad i guess as we talking about a commercial site?!?!

 

[Annoying Donkey]

Where am i ignorant?

No offence intended. I said 'ignorant of the subject'. Perhaps ignorant is too emotive a word, I'll try and find a less offensive synonym. If you knew your SEO, then you might have hired a better monkey

I mean you have to offer discounts, or some money to blog owners and so on, anyway thats what i did.

True you should offer value, but that doesn't mean cash or discounts. How about content? Plenty of blogs out there would welcome an article, perhaps about how your product(s) could be used.

Send 200 personalised email to webmasters and had about 10% success rate which is not too bad i guess as we talking about a commercial site?!?!

20 links? Did this have desired effect? Are you at the top of your rankings? Did you get a decent ROI?

 

[lulu1979]

No offence intended. I said 'ignorant of the subject'. Perhaps ignorant is too emotive a word, I'll try and find a less offensive synonym. If you knew your SEO, then you might have hired a better monkey



True you should offer value, but that doesn't mean cash or discounts. How about content? Plenty of blogs out there would welcome an article, perhaps about how your product(s) could be used.





20 links? Did this have desired effect? Are you at the top of your rankings? Did you get a decent ROI?

I didnt know my SEO back then unfortunatly

Yeah tried that, looks like my niche is a funny one, well i know it is, everyone wants their own little style, and 'I do not want other peoples article on my blog' and 'I dont want to earn money from my blog' and the ones who know why you want a link then they will just charge me. Thats it.

Sent more then 200 emails Im sure, average have a 10% success rate thats what I meant I could do with more links of course, sort of run out of ideas:| and really should concentrate on other side of the business. ROI will see, its a seasonal thing.
Thanks anyway

 

[Dave Thomas]

Talk to the guys before comitting to anything though ask for experience in specific industries. Also seek out more than one quote from 3 different rungs on the ladder top, middle and bottom and choose the right fit for you. SEO is always something that you need to spend time focussing on but its stepbrother PPC is equally as important as you need to test the water and also if you seek some commercial weight with heavy hitting generic terms then you can PPC many other terms that will drive conversions like brands "charles eames chairs". Both sides of the advertising mix are key to sucess as long as everything is fully tracked and attributed to the correct marketing platform..........

 

[Dave Thomas]

People want everything for nothing - of course for a small local business £200 could boost their rankings in some shape or form.

What I find hard to understand with people and SEO is that when I used to tell a business it's going to cost £2k a month they would 'freak out' about the cost, yet they would be happy to spend £5k on a few adverts in magazines etc, with little or no results.

A company once came to me who were spending £200k a year on offline advertising - local newspapers, local radio etc but not seeing the results they wanted - but they wouldn't pay us £5k a month for SEO.

Crazy really, they came back to me about a year later...... anyway rant over - good afternoon UKBF

It is crazy but the old ones are still the best...i still find it funny that people say that they want all their eggs in the SEO option because its free to list there..ha ha...so who is doing the work to get them there for nothing...to many people do not realise how competitive it has become and how tough rankings in certain industries can be. £2k a month for a 1yr period to rank no.1 is £24k with what return until you get there? PPC is still very traceable and the most transparent form of ranking...if it doesnt return then focus efforts elsewhere simple, you could then see £2k return £10k in profit....small budgets, big budgets PPC accepts all of them! just make sure that its done right...but people need the combination and while focusing on core benchmark terms build a ppc campaign that has a high ROI...and i dont think that these prices from Harry are disproportionate....