Final Written Warning

[ANON48SK2]

Hello,

Unfortunately I have found myself on the wrong end of disciplinary action taken against me by a colleague. I have not been getting on with this colleague for the last four years. after a couple of fairly mild IM messages to her and other people, coupled with a vocal argument in the office, I had a final written warning issued to me just before Christmas and chose to appeal it.

I had the appeal meeting last week which I thought was an opportunity to try and convince management to overturn their decision.

However at the conclusion of the meeting, the manager said I will review all the evidence, and then choose to revoke, uphold or move it to the next stage- dismissal. Hold on a minute, this was not mentioned in the disciplinary policy. Had I known dismissal was still a possibility after an appeal, I never would have made it and would've accepted the final written warning.

I was due to have an outcome meeting on Friday but now they've postponed it until Monday afternoon -possibly because they want the weekend to decide my fate. I am a bit miffed about the whole situation, from the misleading disciplinary policy to an all out attempt by a so called 'teammate' to paint me as chauvinistic, misogynistic and unemployable. The crux of the matter is that it is the adult equivalent of kids fighting in the playground.

I expect to get shot down from fellow posters but am man enough to take the hits,, whatever people sa

 

[JamesWW]

Well I cant be of much help, but are you in a union? Because they can help with this or you could get legal advice, most places off a free consultation. Sorry I cant be more help, but it does seem unfare to me.

 

[ANON48SK2]

whilst I was suspended from work, they carried out other interviews and investigations with other staff members. I've also contacted ACAS but not about the above-will speak to them about this tomorrow.

I did also speak to a couple of trade unions but they said give this issue has progressed to the far end of the company's disciplinary process, they would not represent me. I've spoken to a solicitor but they want £150+VAT for an hour's consultation. I have an outcome meeting tomorrow and will send an email to the appeal manager detailing the above and ask him to take it into consideration before passing a decision.

I passed what you could term a mildly sarcastic comment but because this 'teammate'/'colleague' refused to talk to me to sort this out, I lost my temper. I apologised to the business for this and explained its very difficult to sit there working alongside someone knowing she is speaking to people in the business to get me into trouble with HR-you try working next to someone you suspect is plotting to get you kicked out of your job and remain calm. this 'teammate' has persistently been loud, swears profusely and thinks that is acceptable behaviour because everyone else in the company does it. How about some restraint and common decency .- something sadly lacking in society today. I know I work for a business but in any other form of pubic institution I've attended in my life to date is this deemed acceptable or encouraged - not even in the schoolyard !!!

if they do decide dismissal, what will be the basis of my appeal - the fact that they didn't mention it could move to dismissal in the disciplinary policy ? Had this been stated, I never would have made the appeal and accepted the final written warning. I feel like I've been misled because the company have not been clear in their policy.

anyway acas/CAB and a solicitor may be contacted in the coming weeks depending on tomorrows meeting....

 

[Mr D]

whilst I was suspended from work, they carried out other interviews and investigations with other staff members. I've also contacted ACAS but not about the above-will speak to them about this tomorrow.

I did also speak to a couple of trade unions but they said give this issue has progressed to the far end of the company's disciplinary process, they would not represent me. I've spoken to a solicitor but they want £150+VAT for an hour's consultation. I have an outcome meeting tomorrow and will send an email to the appeal manager detailing the above and ask him to take it into consideration before passing a decision...

Sounds like they were thorough, doing other interviews and investigations.

Is the job worth £180 for an hour's consultation? Or try a different solicitor, some do offer a certain time free before they start charging.

 

[JamesWW]

This sound very frustrating for you. I am sorry I cant be more help. But I hope everything works out for you. I would say, that if you feel you are in the right and I am only saying this because I don't know the full facts, I only know your POV and not saying you are lying, I just saying I only know one side. But if you feel you are in the right , then you need to fight it.



I hope thing do sort themselves out and maybe, someone on here can offer you some constructive advice and I would like to know how you get on.

 

[ANON48SK2]

when I received my first written warning for a comment I wrote back in November 2016 they sated they understood I was frustrated but it is critical that respect and professionalism is maintained in the workplace at all times. Ok well I accept my part in this - but are they seriously telling me she is completely blameless in all this ??! swearing in the workplace- this is respectful and professional is it ? I'm sure there are prison inmates around the world that are better behaved than her.

in stories like this, there are three sides to it ; my version, her version and the truth which is somewhere in the middle. Who knows, maybe she is browsing this thread and I don't know it. ...

I have all the paperwork from the company about 30 mb worth so if the decision is dismissal and they say I have a case for unfair dismissal then I will pursue it. I'm just concerned the basis of my appeal is that I was misled about the appeal process and that it could lead to dismissal as the policy stated the decision will be overturned or upheld, not moved to the next stage. I am not sure that would carry much weight in a legal setting...

 

[Chris Ashdown]

What does your company handbook and also your contract state about disciplinary action

Has anything new come to the notice of the disciplinary team that may make the sentence more extreme

I would tend on the information given to assume the appeal is to judge if it is just and not a method of adding to it because you appeal

 

[ANON48SK2]

well this is exactly my point, it doesn't make any reference anywhere in the policy that it could be moved to the next stage if you make an appeal. I am sensing I haven't convinced the appeal manager who is my boss's boss and I sense a slight bias towards her because she is a woman and she's been there longer than I have,,, the impact of unemployment is hard on anyone....but I think the impact on a woman will be much harder than it would be on a man..- I think this is also a factor in their thinking.

I am fairly sure the appeal manager is sat at home right now thinking 'right I have to make a decision whether to end a person's career tomorrow'

In the witness statement they conducted with her, my manager tried to discourage her from making a complaint where as his boss said that if she wanted to, she can go ahead.....

anyway I will send the email tomorrow morning, attend the outcome meeting and take it from there....

see you all in just under 24 hours...

 

[soundengineeruk]

Apologies for what I am about to say..

From the outside looking in on what you have said, it seems to me It is not looking in your favour. You have already received a written warning previously for what I assume is similar issue.

Also, it appears there are other people involved this time around, to which I can only assume they are not in your fan club.

So, if you are dismissed you might NOT have the right to appeal, as the current decision pending is already based on an appeal.

if you cannot appeal again then that leaves you ACAS or CAB, to which is a battle on different playing field. If you do reach this stage, then you need to ask yourself is it worth the battle (time, money, stress and energy) as could be slow process.

I am not saying you should give up, just ask yourself if its worth it?

Once again apologies if my response sounds harsh

 

[Mr D]

when I received my first written warning for a comment I wrote back in November 2016 they sated they understood I was frustrated but it is critical that respect and professionalism is maintained in the workplace at all times. Ok well I accept my part in this - but are they seriously telling me she is completely blameless in all this ??! swearing in the workplace- this is respectful and professional is it ? I'm sure there are prison inmates around the world that are better behaved than her.

in stories like this, there are three sides to it ; my version, her version and the truth which is somewhere in the middle. Who knows, maybe she is browsing this thread and I don't know it. .../QUOTE]


Blameless or not, action taken against her, will it affect action taken against you?

 

[Newchodge]

Single, very simple point. If your disciplinary procedure states that, on appeal, the whole matter is reconsidered and all options are open, including increasing the penalty, you have a problem. If it doesn't say that, then they cannot legally increase the penalty.

Either way, I suggest, you have a problem as you come across as someone who deos not understand rules apply to them and feels free to do whatever they want if they think someone else has broken the rules. That is not a good attitude in an employee.

 

[The Byre]

you suspect is plotting to get you kicked out of your job

Paranoia?

this 'teammate' has persistently been loud, swears profusely and thinks that is acceptable behaviour because everyone else in the company does it.

I had a shouting match with a member of staff this week over musical theory. We were both swearing profusely. F'ing hell, we're both passionate about music, so we swear about the F'ing subject all the F'ing time. We were eating sweet-n-sour pork (that I had made BTW) and quaffing the home brew (after long hours of working until midnight) so naturally, the subject of Dorian modes in Gregorian chants came up and shouting ensued.

It's called mucking-in and getting along with with normal people - you might like to look into it!

 

[Newchodge]

this 'teammate' has persistently been loud, swears profusely and thinks that is acceptable behaviour because everyone else in the company does it.

Well, actually, doesn't that mean it IS acceptable in this company? If everyone does it why are you only complaoning about one person and not the entire company?

 

[ANON48SK2]

Yes I also think it is not looking like it's going my way. However the policy does not state they could increase the penalty to the next stage-as stated before I never would have appealed has this been stated in the policy. The policy is not clear in this respect - I will email the appeal manager this morning.

OK yes other people swear in the company but I am not going to go ahead and raise a grievance against every employee. The reason why it may appear i am singling her out is that when she starts to swear I fear it's the first sign of her losing complete control of herself which she has done in the past. I understand people deal with stress in different ways but this person has the capacity to lose complete control of herself to the point where she has a nervous breakdown-try working alongside someone like that.

In the appeal meeting they kept asking 'why her' and this is why. Other people swear yes but they don't lose complete control of themselves and start falling apart in the workplace. Normal people don't lose complete control and have a meltdown in the office...which she has done in the past and was reason for my initial grievance against her that I made in 2013.

 

[fisicx]

However the policy does not state they could increase the penalty to the next stage-as stated before I never would have appealed has this been stated in the policy.

It doesn't have to. The whole point of the appeal is to reconsider the evidence and make judgement. In this case the judgement was to move to dismissal.

 

[soundengineeruk]

It does sound like you two are just butting heads, that was taken at such a personal level and escalated out of control.

The management need to look at their own performance and handling of this case. This is a long running feud, that could have probably been managed better to avoid escalating to point of you potentially losing your job.

I know that employees don’t usually get on with each other. In my experience the best way to resolve these types of feuds is via mediation session; well a meeting where I say to them both

“grow up and sort it out, otherwise I sort it out for you”

Then I leave the room as usually it results they sort it out or they both get disciplined.

 

[Mr D]

Yes I also think it is not looking like it's going my way. However the policy does not state they could increase the penalty to the next stage-as stated before I never would have appealed has this been stated in the policy. The policy is not clear in this respect - I will email the appeal manager this morning.

OK yes other people swear in the company but I am not going to go ahead and raise a grievance against every employee. The reason why it may appear i am singling her out is that when she starts to swear I fear it's the first sign of her losing complete control of herself which she has done in the past. I understand people deal with stress in different ways but this person has the capacity to lose complete control of herself to the point where she has a nervous breakdown-try working alongside someone like that.

In the appeal meeting they kept asking 'why her' and this is why. Other people swear yes but they don't lose complete control of themselves and start falling apart in the workplace. Normal people don't lose complete control and have a meltdown in the office...which she has done in the past and was reason for my initial grievance against her that I made in 2013.

Capacity to lose complete control?

Yes sounds like she is human.

If the working environment is so bad for you then find another job. Must be places around more suited to you though you can find someone having a meltdown anywhere.

 

[STDFR33]

Rather than being dragged down to their level, you should rise above it.

You have had the opportunity to adjust your behaviour and rise above back in November 2016.

If you end up jobless, you need to think about how you conduct yourself in the workplace before you end up losing another job.

 

[ANON48SK2]

ok and she doesn't need to think about how she conducts herself in the workplace ? Look, I accept my role in this feud but you can't pin everything on me-it takes two to tango after all.

Anyway they upheld the decision so the final written warning still stands. I guess overturning it was a stretch but I thought if they give you an option to appeal, might as well take it. They also clarified the last statement they made last week - when they said it could move to the next stage - they meant further investigations are to be carried out and not dismissal. I told them well, look you need to be crystal clear in your policy so that others do not make an appeal against a final written warning if it is implied dismissal is a possible outcome. The HR lady took my comments on board but we'll see if the policy is revamped. Spent the whole weekend stressing unnecessarily.

She's due in next week so I have to be extra vigiliant with her...

 

[Mr D]

ok and she doesn't need to think about how she conducts herself in the workplace ? Look, I accept my role in this feud but you can't pin everything on me-it takes two to tango after all

She's due in next week so I have to be extra vigiliant with her...

What they do with her - has it any relevance to what they do with you?

It's probably a really bad idea for you to ask her what they did with her. Be a good idea to find another job. One where you are not dealing with these same people.

Do not let her actions dictate what you do.

 

[ANON48SK2]

no it doesn't but like I said, you can't pin everything on me. She has to accept her role in this. Today they kept saying I can't keep referring to what happened in 2013 but her behaviour back then has formed the basis of our working relationship ever since . People say you should forgive her but her behaviour back then was very severe- I would defy anyone to work alongside someone having a complete breakdown and not react to it....

I will not ask what they did with her, nor will I try to befriend her or build bridges. There is too much bad blood between us so as per the advice of the first appeal manager, I will be keeping it strictly professional and only converse with her on work matters and nothing more.

now to focus on finding work elsewhere....

 

[STDFR33]

You can pin all of your conduct on you.

‘She did this’ and ‘she did that’ is what children say and doesn’t get away from your conduct.

If you don’t change your view on how you conduct yourself in the workplace, your dismissal won’t be far off.

If the situation bothers you so much, you need to look for another job.

 

[obscure]

Two wrongs don't make a right. If she was doing something wrong that doesn't mean you get to do something wrong. Instead of sinking to her level you should have made a formal complaint to management about her behaviour. Instead you were foolish and gave her grounds to do exactly that about you.

She is responsible for her behaviour but you are 100% responsible for how you react to it.

 

[ANON48SK2]

Well after four years of clashing. ..mgt have finally decided to move me to a different area of the office so I am no longer in earshot of her or in her proximity..tbh they could've sent me to Pluto and I would have been ecstatic...

We shall see how things go....

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Would have been a rather long commute

 

[Charlie B ACS]

Would have been a rather long commute

And the atmosphere there is distinctly lacking as well

 

[Mr D]

And the atmosphere there is distinctly lacking as well

Depends where in it's orbit it is.

 

[ANON48SK2]

And whether the lifeforms of Pluto will spontaneously combust when they see a human penetrate their inner sanctum...