Does Travel Time to and from first job count as working day

Discussion in 'Employment & HR' started by SJP20, Jul 13, 2013.

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  1. SJP20

    SJP20 UKBF Newcomer

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    Employee with working hours of 0900-1800. Vehicle based job, engineer visiting various locations within 60 mile radius of home. Each day could be different, London one day, Hastings another day. 10 mins from home another day. Does the time spent in the company vehicle count as working hours? We have told the engineer he should be at his first job by 0900. He feels he shouldn't leave home until 0900.

    What is the situation please?

    Thanks
     
    Posted: Jul 13, 2013 By: SJP20 Member since: Mar 25, 2009
    #1
  2. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Legend

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    Normal travel from home to base is not considered working time. However, if there is a huge variation it may be something for negotiation, something like be on site by 9.00, but any travel time in excess of 1 hour counts as overtime. Presumably there is a similar issue at the end of the working day as well?
     
    Posted: Jul 13, 2013 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
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  3. InPrintImaging

    InPrintImaging UKBF Enthusiast

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    Think you normally look at the travel time to the base of operations/the office, and then any travel time in excess of that is work - not certain about that though.
     
    Posted: Jul 13, 2013 By: InPrintImaging Member since: Nov 15, 2010
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  4. Merchant UK

    Merchant UK Verified Business ✔️

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    I would look at it this way, if you travel from home to your place of work (same place every day) then you should get their by the start time specified by the company say 8am, thats when your day starts.

    But if your working on the road and you need to get to a customer 60 miles away then your starting time is the time you leave your house, not the time you get to the customer as you are actually doing "Business Driving" from the minute you leave your house.

    Don't let them fob you off with only paying you when you reach the customer Imagine lorry drivers putting up with this kind of thing!!
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2013
    Posted: Jul 13, 2013 By: Merchant UK Member since: Aug 15, 2010
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  5. OldWelshGuy

    OldWelshGuy Moderator
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    the way we used to handle this (many years ago) was that we deducted travel time from the base.

    e.g. if his home to our base was 20 minutes, then if we sent him on a 40 minute start he would get paid 20 minutes for that days travel. if we said, 'be at x @ 9am, then we would expect him to be there, but we would pay him from 8:40 . We found that the best way, sometimes they win, sometimes they lose, depends on the direction he is travelling.
     
    Posted: Jul 13, 2013 By: OldWelshGuy Member since: Jun 12, 2008
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  6. atmosbob

    atmosbob UKBF Legend

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    Oh the difference between working for yourself and employing others. I think that an employee should look at it on the basis of what other jobs are available in his/her area done by his neighbours and leave home at a similar time. If the neighbours spend one hour getting to work it is surely not unreasonable to do the same.

    Working for myself I will travel through the night to be somewhere before dawn. ( I have found truckers to be pretty obliging over start times. On one occasion I got a whole team of truckers to the Mecca bypass before dawn from Jeddah and they weren't doing it for extra money.)
     
    Posted: Jul 13, 2013 By: atmosbob Member since: Oct 26, 2009
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  7. sirearl

    sirearl UKBF Legend

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    Yup some people are so obsessed with Bingo.:|
     
    Posted: Jul 13, 2013 By: sirearl Member since: Apr 23, 2007
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  8. atmosbob

    atmosbob UKBF Legend

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    Actually it was to play in the sand.

    I was photographing a truck company's recovery vehicle towing a double top Artic out of a sand dune. First we had to get it into the sand dune........
     
    Posted: Jul 13, 2013 By: atmosbob Member since: Oct 26, 2009
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  9. SJP20

    SJP20 UKBF Newcomer

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    Ok I see what everyone is saying.
    Our base is about 20 mins from his home address. However some days he could leave home at 0840 and will be at H/O on time and some days he can leave home at 0840 and not be with us until 0915, it really all depends on rush hour traffic. When I worked in an office based job, I had to be there at 0900 everyday, no matter what the traffic, therefore I used to always leave an extra 10-15 mins early to make sure I was there on time.

    There are days he doesn't have to come to H/O and his first customer might be for example 30 mins away. We expect him to be at his first customer by 0900. That would mean to make sure he is he should really leave home by 0815-0830 to be there on time, yet often he still leaves at 0900?

    I can't seem to get a definitive answer from the working time regulations and the answers on here although very much appreciated seem to be very much subjective.

    I think probably the best thing would be to change his hours to 0830 start and say he has to be at head office everyday for 0830 and that way we would know that we are getting him on the road to get to his first customer by 0900. The difficulty arises the other end, his route might take him further away starting with a customer 30 mins away and ending with a customer 60 mins away, so then because the 60 min cust might be in London, does it mean he should finish his working day at 1500!! because of London traffic, because that is quite often what he does to make sure he is back home at 1730.

    I know other businesses and people that work for them that get told they have to be at their job at 0900 and each day is different and they have to leave whatever time they need to to be at that job, even if that means leaving at 0730.

    Thanks for all the replies they have been much appreciated.
     
    Posted: Jul 15, 2013 By: SJP20 Member since: Mar 25, 2009
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  10. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Legend

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    The working time directive allows you to count travel within the working day as work. Start and finish travel is not covered, which is why I would recommend negotiation.

    It does not appear right that he should count all travel to customers as working time when he would not count travel to H/O as working time.
     
    Posted: Jul 15, 2013 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
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  11. Walkol

    Walkol UKBF Ace

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    I think you are making this more difficult than it should be - OWG has it spot on.

    If they need to travel further than they would to get into head office, then pay him the difference. They should be at the job when you say they should be there, and finish when you say they should. Any travel on top of that should be calculated from your head office to the job. They should be paid all those hours. Get all this in your contracts.

    Simples.
     
    Posted: Jul 15, 2013 By: Walkol Member since: Sep 14, 2012
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  12. Merchant UK

    Merchant UK Verified Business ✔️

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    So basically get them to go to the yard/office first and then travel to the customer from there, you need to be at work for 8am say so any driving after 8am on route to the client is paid as a working hour, surely that would save a lot of arguments :rolleyes:
     
    Posted: Jul 15, 2013 By: Merchant UK Member since: Aug 15, 2010
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  13. OldWelshGuy

    OldWelshGuy Moderator
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    And then work out how much travel actually costs you per mile on your leased or owned vehicles, not to mention you will seriously wind the employee up if you make him drive to your yard for 8:30, then drive back the way he came to be 10 minutes from his house an hour later.

    Heres a staggeringly simple suggestion, TALK and use some common sense :)

    As noted above, you are making a simple system complicated. if it can take him30 minutes or 45 minutes, then talk it out and come up with a system where everyone is happy, because a happy employee is a productive employee, just don't give him the world on a stick but don't spend 6 months discussing the diameter and length of the stick either ;)
     
    Posted: Jul 16, 2013 By: OldWelshGuy Member since: Jun 12, 2008
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  14. JBlack

    JBlack UKBF Contributor

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    Because he is travelling to a temporary workplace, even HMRC consider that his journey is a business journey i.e. work...so why don't you? Do the decent thing and pay the man. :)
     
    Posted: Jul 17, 2013 By: JBlack Member since: Jun 29, 2013
    #14
  15. FirstClassVirtualOffice

    FirstClassVirtualOffice UKBF Legend

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    On this topic, if someone has a job where they drive (or are driven by a colleague) to other customers houses throughout the day, is that travel time counted as working hours?
     
    Posted: Jul 17, 2013 By: FirstClassVirtualOffice Member since: Nov 5, 2010
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  16. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Legend

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    Yes it is.
     
    Posted: Jul 17, 2013 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
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  17. FirstClassVirtualOffice

    FirstClassVirtualOffice UKBF Legend

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    Is that a legal thing or can employers choose to not pay you for that travel time between jobs?
     
    Posted: Jul 17, 2013 By: FirstClassVirtualOffice Member since: Nov 5, 2010
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  18. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Legend

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    It's part of the minimum wage regulations. If you are not paid for travel between jobs, you need to receive an hourly rate covering all the hours that you work that is at least minimum wage.

    If you work 9-5 less an hour for lunch, that is 7 hours. If 2 hours of that is travel time that is not paid, then you must get at least £8.67 per hour for the 5 hours, in order to get £6.19 (minimum wage) over the whole 7 hours.
     
    Posted: Jul 17, 2013 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
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  19. FirstClassVirtualOffice

    FirstClassVirtualOffice UKBF Legend

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    So their wage slips don't have to show the total hours worked or their hourly rate so long as the employee knows that what they worked tallies to nmw yes? In this case their wage slips just show the total amount earned. No hours or hourly rate.
     
    Posted: Jul 17, 2013 By: FirstClassVirtualOffice Member since: Nov 5, 2010
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  20. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Legend

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    Yes. The payslip just has to show wages and deductions. whether NMW is being paid is a pretty simple calculation, separate from the payslip.
     
    Posted: Jul 17, 2013 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
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