Does anyone have experience taking couriers to court, or counter claim against courier?

[hybridmcr]

We had a nightmare last year with couriers, I know that the royal mail strikes affected the industry alot but it caused major issues and losses with our company. Without naming couriers we have the below and some are starting to pursue with MCOL

Courier 1 - We have an outstanding invoice of £4000. We agreed on our package dims with sales and signed a contract to that affect. Once we started using them we started receiving daily hub fines so packages that were meant to cost £10ea fluctuated up to £42ea, to the tune of £900. Also £1000 worth of packages were destroyed or lost in transit. Tracking numbers were invalid so amazon and ebay refunded alot of our customers whilst goods were delivered. We are still analysing data so the figures are rising, our rep was helpful until he started to ignore us.

Courier 2 - Another outstanding invoice of £4000, however they lost and damaged £7500 of our items. We went through claims process and they disputed each one despite us paying for the premium service to insure each consignment. 2 items costing £2500 they state were never sent, and asked for cctv footage one month later, our building cctv only records for 14 days!

I have referred this to the solicitor provided by my insurer but they are not responding, yet we have deadlines.

The standard courier terms state that they can only pay cost per item, we are manufacturing the items so 1 item has 8 cost receipts. However, as they are in breach of contract I would like for them to put us in the position we would have been in before they lost the items. Is this pheasable? and as a small company are we at a loss in regards to the invoices outstanding. Its quite frustrating overall.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I think you will be doing yourself up like a kipper if you take one of the large couriers to court over the above issues
Their terms and conditions are water tight and the insurance that you refer to is actually £1 per kilo so under the terms of their contract you are probably owed a few pounds and I hope you don't pay for a solicitor and court action to discover this

Could I ask the value of each item If you have sent two items worth 2.5K through the overnights I feel that you may have taken too much of a chance

 

[MBE2017]

The standard courier terms state that they can only pay cost per item, we are manufacturing the items so 1 item has 8 cost receipts. However, as they are in breach of contract I would like for them to put us in the position we would have been in before they lost the items. Is this pheasable? and as a small company are we at a loss in regards to the invoices outstanding. Its quite frustrating overall.

Good luck with that. I used to work for TNT many years ago, they had, as can be expected thousands of lost shipments during the four years I was with them.

I cannot ever remember hearing that a client achieving this feat, insurance is ONLY ever meant to re instate you to where you were, not improve your position. Add to that, you will only get the cost of the raw materials. By sending your goods with the carrier you have accepted and agreed to these terms.

What argument are you hoping to use to change this contract?

After all, they will rightly argue that you agreed willingly to the conditions, and have made no complaint where the deliveries were made. Please bear in mind these companies resources, most of the big National names have turnovers bigger than most of the Worlds smaller Nations.

 

[hybridmcr]

After a discovery session with our solicitor, they accepted our case on the merit that there is a higher chance of winning than losing. Hence my willingness to proceed. The biggest factor here is that there is a breach of contract on the basis that they were hired to provide a service that they have not provided. The onus is on them to prove that the item was not collected by their courier when I have 3 staff members including myself who overseen the goods leaving our warehouse.

The insurance on both couriers' premium services which we have paid for was £1k per consignment. Having used one of them for many years prior we have never faced such issues, only since the strikes of last year.

I agree that they are heavily resourced, but none of this really negates from the fact that they want large sums (to me) of money for me to burden the loss of such high-cost items. Its a lose-lose situation in my case if I pay or if I don't.

I ask if anyone has ever dealt with these situations on here, a forum in which yes people have e-pinions or better still used to work in a department of a courier firm to that effect. Yes I ship valuable items, as do alot of my competitors or others in the electronics industry and yes we must say a prayer and bless each item as it goes out the door as in the end you can only hope that a package delivery company can uphold its promise to deliver a package. I hardly think that in the 4 weeks of using a company £7.5k worth of missing items and damages is viable for a small company, thats a big chunk of our monthly revenue that some thief is enjoying somewhere.

 

[MBE2017]

Like I mentioned, good luck. Are your solicitors charging by the hour or working on a no win fee?

I hate to say, but I have found solicitors not averse to taking on cases, as long as they get paid. Either way I do wish you luck.

 

[Gyumri]

After a discovery session with our solicitor, they accepted our case on the merit that there is a higher chance of winning than losing.

LOL ?

I hate to say, but I have found solicitors not averse to taking on cases, as long as they get paid.

Correct. If the OP'a case is so watertight then the solicitor ought to take it on under a CFA with no risk to the OP- which doesn't happen in the real world.

The OP needs to think who is taking on the risk if an item is not delivered. That will be determined by the courier's terms and conditions.

 

[hybridmcr]

Provided and paid for by our insurance ??‍

Terms and conditions does not negate our rights and is invalid under breach of contract. Im curious what type of business do you run? Would it be ok for you to lose this sum of money and would you shrug it off and continue using the provider? Who would ultimately pay in the end if companies needed to factor in the cost of stolen packages into their margins ? end of the day it was just a genuine query

 

[MBE2017]

Hopefully you can update the forum in the future once you get an outcome. I hope you have luck.

 

[thetiger2015]

Provided and paid for by our insurance ??‍

Terms and conditions does not negate our rights and is invalid under breach of contract. Im curious what type of business do you run? Would it be ok for you to lose this sum of money and would you shrug it off and continue using the provider? Who would ultimately pay in the end if companies needed to factor in the cost of stolen packages into their margins ? end of the day it was just a genuine query

Taking them to court is difficult enough, if you win, don't expect them to actually pay anything. If you're dealing with a big national courier, they may already have dozens of claims against them and they don't particularly care. They sometimes have a legal department whose existence is to obstruct and delay things like refunds or claims.

We've written off a few hundred pounds in losses due to couriers. They don't budge. The Ts and Cs will simply state that they will attempt to collect/deliver a package. They never guarantee anything. As soon as it leaves your warehouse you hope it will get to the destination.

I think others who have replied, are suggesting you tread carefully and be aware that solicitors may well be happy to take your pennies. Unless they're offering no win, no fee of course?

If you do win, keep the forum updated. You could save others a lot of money. It's just going to be very difficult to break those Ts and Cs, they're designed to protect the courier from claims.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

OP I can understand how unhappy you are and I can understand that you feel that you might be onto a winner because a solicitor has advised and you feel that the members of this forum are less qualified and our view and experiences are not as reliable as a solicitor

Well that's wrong a good number of cases over the last 500 years of this forum have often resulted in solicitors being wrong or unable achieve payment after judgment All your money will be wasted.
The advice here is based on business owners with decades of distance selling and I have offered my lifetime of experience in the express freight sector

Taking a step back in our quest to help these overnight couriers were never developed for the type of high value product that you are selling You are simply expecting too much
Part of my business has been successfully built up by us looking after companies like yours . Please note I said "looking after" Where your freight is of a high value and your customer deserves the best possible delivery service after choosing to buy from you over every other retailer!
You would have had a far better experience if you used Jeremy Hawke Couriers and your customers would have been delighted

The challenge we have here is that a lot of companies don't want to pay the price that we charge so simply just take a chance on over nights that are totally unsuitable for carrying this type of freight

 

[Newchodge]

Can I justy point out that the OP siad, fairly early, that the solicitor's fees are covered by insurance.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Can I justy point out that the OP siad, fairly early, that the solicitor's fees are covered by insurance.

I would genuinely like to see the OP win - its always nice to see big business pay their dues.

However, even if they aren't picking up the financial tab, these cases can become very costly in terms of time and stress.

I would strongly suggest the OP sets very clear limits on where they vow out, not just blindly chasing a principle

 

[Newchodge]

I would genuinely like to see the OP win - its always nice to see big business pay their dues.

However, even if they aren't picking up the financial tab, these cases can become very costly in terms of time and stress.

I would strongly suggest the OP sets very clear limits on where they vow out, not just blindly chasing a principle

As you say, any and every court case is stressful for those involved. However, I think the fact the fees are coveed by insurance is a good sign - it is even harder to get agreement to proceed to court from insurance-backed lawyers than from no win-no fee!

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I hope the OP wins too and if he does I will eat my hat live on @Ozzy Youtube UKBF castpod thingy and on @JCBrown business advice, training and guidance Youtube wifis computery UKBF sesssions
and live on Myspace

 

[Gyumri]

I have referred this to the solicitor provided by my insurer but they are not responding, yet we have deadlines.

Can I justy point out that the OP siad, fairly early, that the solicitor's fees are covered by insurance.

What the OP said was that his insurer had referred him to a solicitor.
Funding agreements can be arranged with litigation finders to cover the OP's solicitors costs but that's different from a funder agreeing to pay the opponents costs if the OP loses.

The OP should first establish from his solicitor to what extent he can be covered for his case and then decide whether he wants to take the risk of ending up like a fried kipper.

 

[DontAsk]

What the OP said was that his insurer had referred him to a solicitor.

See the additional comment in post #7.

 

[Gyumri]

Provided and paid for by our insurance ??‍

See the additional comment in post #7.

I have. See my comment at post #6 !

The OP needs to think who is taking on the risk if an item is not delivered. That will be determined by the courier's terms and conditions.

The OP is not referring to insurance re solicitors costs but insurance for his consignments.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

The OP is not referring to insurance re solicitors costs but insurance for his consignments.

That's how I view the post as well and I wish the usual suspects on this thread were able to read this one way contact on here themselves

 

[hybridmcr]

My business insurer has covered the cost of solicitor and provided the solicitor to quite a hefty sum, post 100k

Seperately I paid for £1k of insurance for each individual package from courier Incase of loss or damages. Courier in question has accepted 3 claims and denied 5/6. On one occasion they mentioned they had received two packages and later declined and said they’ve not received them, all in writing

So two seperate insurances mentioned here

Through separate legal advice from legal team provided by my insurer states that due to breach of contract the couriers terms and conditions do not apply. This was after providing them with the terms and conditions of carriage document. They were paid to provide a service that they did not provide

I find it difficult on forums often as I’m not here to argue my point, just wanted to know whether anyone has been through similar. Business is frustrating enough trying to meet kpis, run a team, holistically look after my customers and cover overheads whilst navigating huge hurdles along the way. We are a fairly new startup and can’t afford to pay the costs behind this.

Yes I could have used a more expensive box mover, which we generally do on anything post 1.5k but our industry tends to use the usual couriers and that keeps us competitive.

 

[Gyumri]

. On one occasion they mentioned they had received two packages and later declined and said they’ve not received them, all in writing

What does your paperwork say about the courier signing for receipt and what are its terms relating to non-delivery - ie. how are you to be compensated and who is contracted to give it?

Through separate legal advice from legal team provided by my insurer states that due to breach of contract the couriers terms and conditions do not apply. This was after providing them with the terms and conditions of carriage document. They were paid to provide a service that they did not provide

You need to be clear about whether you are relying on legal expenses insurance or your insurance for non-deliveries.

What does your insurer say about the breach for non-delivery?

Your contract with the courier sets out the terms you agreed with them for the delivery of your goods and what compensation they will pay for any non-deliveries.

Your policy with your insurer will tell you the basis upon which they will compensate you for a non-delivery.

At the moment you are piggy in the middle with each side giving you a different story.

 

[Newchodge]

What does your paperwork say about the courier signing for receipt and what are its terms relating to non-delivery - ie. how are you to be compensated and who is contracted to give it?

You need to be clear about whether you are relying on legal expenses insurance or your insurance for non-deliveries.

What does your insurer say about the breach for non-delivery?

Your contract with the courier sets out the terms you agreed with them for the delivery of your goods and what compensation they will pay for any non-deliveries.

Your policy with your insurer will tell you the basis upon which they will compensate you for a non-delivery.

At the moment you are piggy in the middle with each side giving you a different story.

I don't understand how you reach that conclusion.

The insurers for the delivery will pay whatever the insurance amount is.

The insureres for legal costs will pay the legal costs of taking action against the couriers, the compensation (if successful) to include the total losses incurred, some of which will be paid to the OP and some to the insurers who paid out for some of the loss. Perfectly normal.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Yes I could have used a more expensive box mover,

Here were are again I'm used to this sh£t ! I hear it enough.
I get this attitude on the phone at least once a week

You will pay top whack to all your suppliers some are completely ripping you off and you love paying them but the people that are the only ones that meet your customers Your only front desk you regard them as just box movers!

Online retailers in the UK appear to have this entitlement that transport should be a free service

Well mate you have got everything you deserve with TIT its your own fault

 

[hybridmcr]

Just a heads up. 1 out of 3 down, counterclaim submitted and courier called within the day to settle, deducting the amount for missing and damaged parcels at retail cost and removing any extra fees. Thought it was a cut and shut debt collection apparently. Their solicitor was baffled as they don’t get involved with counter claims, only letter pushing and debt collection. It can be done

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Just a heads up. 1 out of 3 down, counterclaim submitted and courier called within the day to settle, deducting the amount for missing and damaged parcels at retail cost and removing any extra fees. Thought it was a cut and shut debt collection apparently. Their solicitor was baffled as they don’t get involved with counter claims, only letter pushing and debt collection. It can be done

That's fantastic news
I'm guessing that getting solicitors involved to help manage your online deliveries is an acceptable thing to do.
Going forward it is far better than using an expensive box mover!
Who cares about the impression that your customers get because once a month the lawyer can sort it out
All good! anything to avoid paying box movers Why give money to them when you already have the solicitors bank details on your payment run

Madness pure feckin madness!

 

[The Byre]

• Yes I could have used a more expensive box mover,

Here were are again I'm used to this sh£t ! I hear it enough.
I get this attitude on the phone at least once a week

If I recommend a delivery company with two-man delivery with photographed hand-over and unpacking to ensure that the goods arrive intact, I get told that it is too expensive. And what @JEREMY HAWKE said about those two men being the impression people get of your company is 100% on the money!

But if you are selling (for example) the latest 77" TV sets that cost £2,500 wholesale (that break easily in transport) anything less is doomed to disaster.

 

[hybridmcr]

If I recommend a delivery company with two-man delivery with photographed hand-over and unpacking to ensure that the goods arrive intact, I get told that it is too expensive. And what @JEREMY HAWKE said about those two men being the impression people get of your company is 100% on the money!

But if you are selling (for example) the latest 77" TV sets that cost £2,500 wholesale (that break easily in transport) anything less is doomed to disaster.

Yes this is true. We are in an industry that is quite competitive and every penny counts towards winning sales or having a dead week. Some of our competitors are known to take a loss to win the customer. I loath these big couriers and literally don’t have the margin to pay for anything more, if I pass this option to my customer they will almost always say no.

The best we do is on the more expensive kit, ship it on a pallet with a do not stack instruction. Funnily I made an expensive order this week with catalog Co Very and they shipped it with yodel..!

I’m not here to upset anyone by all means @JEREMY HAWKE your business and service is valued.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Just a heads up. 1 out of 3 down, counterclaim submitted and courier called within the day to settle, deducting the amount for missing and damaged parcels at retail cost and removing any extra fees. Thought it was a cut and shut debt collection apparently. Their solicitor was baffled as they don’t get involved with counter claims, only letter pushing and debt collection. It can be done

Result!

 

[The Byre]

I loath these big couriers and literally don’t have the margin to pay for anything more, if I pass this option to my customer they will almost always say no.

Most vendors do not give one any options - just regular delivery £x and express £y.

But the large couriers really do sometimes make rods for their own backs with their strange rates for size and weight. We ordered several 50m rolls of 120cm fencing - they arrived OK but with Royal Mail's Parcel Force!

Today or Monday, I expect delivery of two fork-lift tines - these are F'ing heavy items - and are coming with My Herpes! I really can't see the little old woman who does the My Herpes deliveries in our area staggering around with about 100kg of fork-lift tines slung over her shoulder!

At least they can't break fork-lift tines - but they can use them to break every other item in the van!

 

[MBE2017]

I loath these big couriers and literally don’t have the margin to pay for anything more, if I pass this option to my customer they will almost always say no.

This is part of your problem, your couriers should be seen as vital to your success and you would do well to forge a good relationship with them. Loathing these couriers because your margins are tight, or the odd shipment is lost and broken is not helping you.

I would be trying to work with them, is your packaging good enough, have you asked for advice on how to pack items better? Can your labelling etc be better, try to work with them.

One thing I can almost guarantee, if you think your margins are tight, the couriers are likely to be safer thin in comparison. Most deliveries are made without loss or damages, obviously lost consignments is a cause for concern, possibly enough to choose another.

Regarding costs, it is down to yourself, I personally state the cost to get the desired outcome, and that is the only option, but it is your business to run.

 

[colche]

Like I mentioned, good luck. Are your solicitors charging by the hour or working on a no win fee?

I hate to say, but I have found solicitors not averse to taking on cases, as long as they get paid. Either way I do wish you luck.

Hello Jeremy

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Hello Jeremy

Hello and you better not be another Andrew Tate impersonator!

 

[MrsM2024]

I appreciate this is an old thread but for anyone else looking for this advice.

This is a simple of breach of contract. You pay the courier to deliver your items within your agreed timescale and in the same condition you ship them. Their T&C are not 'watertight' and more often than not are actually completely unfair and wouldnt stand in a Court.

I have taken legal action against a courier. I claimed for lost items, late deliveries and loss of earnings due to losing my marketplace seller standing (I lost premium shipping on Amazon for a month due to late deliveries) and interest. Didn't use a solicitor you can just do it in the money claims court which is all online. The courier settled with me before the Hearing.

Don't be scared to take them on and good luck!

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I appreciate this is an old thread but for anyone else looking for this advice.

This is a simple of breach of contract. You pay the courier to deliver your items within your agreed timescale and in the same condition you ship them. Their T&C are not 'watertight' and more often than not are actually completely unfair and wouldnt stand in a Court.

I have taken legal action against a courier. I claimed for lost items, late deliveries and loss of earnings due to losing my marketplace seller standing (I lost premium shipping on Amazon for a month due to late deliveries) and interest. Didn't use a solicitor you can just do it in the money claims court which is all online. The courier settled with me before the Hearing.

Don't be scared to take them on and good luck!

I find this highly unlikely as all of us have terms and conditions stating that we are not responsible for consequential loses drawn up by lawyers.
We are responsible only for damage or loss of freight and despite your courier being bloody useless They were also equally stupid by settling out of court.

In my experience you have been extremely lucky on this one

You have no prove that the T&Cs would not stand up in court as they have not been tested in court as your case did not get to court .

 

[HFE Signs]

I know how you feel, being a mail order business we suffer the same issues, we briefly looked at it once some time ago and after our initial findings (in their terms) we decided it wasn't worth the effort or the risk of clocking up a colossal amount in solicitors charges. As previously mentioned they tend to cover themselves in their terms pretty much so they can do as they please. Personally, it isn't worth it but do keep us posted

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I know how you feel, being a mail order business we suffer the same issues, we briefly looked at it once some time ago and after our initial findings (in their terms) we decided it wasn't worth the effort or the risk of clocking up a colossal amount in solicitors charges. As previously mentioned they tend to cover themselves in their terms pretty much so they can do as they please. Personally, it isn't worth it but do keep us posted

Its not "they " that cover themselves its the expensive solicitors

Do you think I would be doing this if I could write air tight terms like that

 

[Mark T Jones]

I appreciate this is an old thread but for anyone else looking for this advice.

This is a simple of breach of contract. You pay the courier to deliver your items within your agreed timescale and in the same condition you ship them. Their T&C are not 'watertight' and more often than not are actually completely unfair and wouldnt stand in a Court.

I have taken legal action against a courier. I claimed for lost items, late deliveries and loss of earnings due to losing my marketplace seller standing (I lost premium shipping on Amazon for a month due to late deliveries) and interest. Didn't use a solicitor you can just do it in the money claims court which is all online. The courier settled with me before the Hearing.

Don't be scared to take them on and good luck!

I'd suggest you've got lucky.

The likes of UPS have teams of lawyers who fight this stuff day in day out.

Win or lose, they seldom back down.