Do you need a passport for a job?

Discussion in 'Employment & HR' started by Faevilangel, Jan 22, 2014.

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  1. Faevilangel

    Faevilangel Website Critic

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    She isn't interested in going further with this but I just wanted clarification as the only "normal" job I had, I turned up with my provisional license and BC and got told I could start the following week.
     
    Posted: Jan 22, 2014 By: Faevilangel Member since: Jun 29, 2009
    #21
  2. Steve Sellers

    Steve Sellers Verified Business ✔️

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    So long as it's not a British passport they are insisting on I see no issue. They are being cautious but the fines for hiring illegals are massive (10k per illegal).


    ps would ignore the advice about going to MP's about this.
     
    Posted: Jan 22, 2014 By: Steve Sellers Member since: Aug 7, 2011
    #22
  3. patientlady

    patientlady UKBF Legend

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    I had to recently show my passport for a freelance position , to Verify. I did, but seems rather outrageous to me, when I understand 80% of Americans have never had a passport, what do they do?
    Sorry cannot help but wanted to say my two penneth ...:(
     
    Posted: Jan 22, 2014 By: patientlady Member since: Aug 25, 2009
    #23
  4. Steve Sellers

    Steve Sellers Verified Business ✔️

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    I don't see why it's outrageous. The employer has to cover its own back. I once applied for the police and you want to see the checks they do......
     
    Posted: Jan 22, 2014 By: Steve Sellers Member since: Aug 7, 2011
    #24
  5. Faevilangel

    Faevilangel Website Critic

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    I think it's all a load of codswallop, it's basically stopping people who want to work, from working, she is now on the dole / JSA while she looks for a job, even though she has worked for her whole working life.

    The company even had a reference from her last job and worked in the company before as a temp (although more than 5 years ago).
     
    Posted: Jan 22, 2014 By: Faevilangel Member since: Jun 29, 2009
    #25
  6. Steve Sellers

    Steve Sellers Verified Business ✔️

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    I can understand the frustration but its hardly stopping people who want to work from working. The Company are offering her work, it's just a rather minor and inconsequential obstacle to work. If it was a choice between staying on the dole and getting a passport then it would be a no brainer for me. Hell go to the job centre and I bet they will pay for the passport application if it will mean her getting a job....But I do appreciate the Company may well be unwilling to wait and she has already missed the boat.

    Maybe its a case of 'once bitten, twice shy' for the employers.
     
    Posted: Jan 22, 2014 By: Steve Sellers Member since: Aug 7, 2011
    #26
  7. Richie N

    Richie N UKBF Legend

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    This does not prove their eligibility to work in the UK.
     
    Posted: Jan 22, 2014 By: Richie N Member since: Nov 1, 2006
    #27
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  8. deniser

    deniser UKBF Legend

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    Although a birth certificate is one of the accepted documents, that doesn't prove anything either does it unless you were born before 1983?

    If you are born after 1983 and you were born inside or outside the UK and your parents were born outside the UK (like my family) you really would need a passport to prove you were British.

    If I were the op I would complain to the company concerned on your mother's behalf as a matter of principle as this isn't morally right at all. Forged passports are just as easy to come by as faked birth certificates.

    Illegal workers that I have worked alongside many years ago all had forged passports even then and invented national insurance numbers and employers turned a blind eye because they would have no staff otherwise.
     
    Posted: Jan 22, 2014 By: deniser Member since: Jun 3, 2008
    #28
  9. japancool

    japancool UKBF Legend

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    A driving license doesn't show nationality, does it? I don't know, I don't drive. All it shows is your address and the fact that you can drive. A foreign national can have a UK driving license, and can also have an NI number, even if, for example, their eligibility to live or work in the UK had expired, as long as they got those documents before it expired.

    A passport will show their eligibility, as it will have a visa or residence permit in it, with the conditions of stay, or of course, if it's a British or EU passport, even a Romanian or Bulgarian one, then they have the right to work.
     
    Posted: Jan 23, 2014 By: japancool Member since: Jul 11, 2013
    #29
  10. Steve Sellers

    Steve Sellers Verified Business ✔️

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    Morally right? What has that got to do with the price of bread? The principle is simple - an employer has a legal duty to check the right to work and it has a responsibility to itself and shareholders to ensure it is not fined. A British passport is far more difficult to copy, then say a Pakistani passport or a driving licence (my driving licence looks as though a child has faked it and its real!)

    Forged passports are as easy to come by? How do you know this? I can honestly say I have never been offered any forged passports and I have assisted countless asylum seekers (many entered illegally) with helping them fill in forms for the immigration (voluntary basis). Sounds like a presumption to me. You will of course know from your time being a Solicitor that for money laundering purposes Solicitors insist on 2 forms of id.

    Faked British passports are extremely expensive due to the difficulty in faking them. By far the most common faked passports are non-eu - mostly Pakistani and Afghani. (they can allegedly be bought for as low as £50). - source immigration solicitor friend.

    If anyone thinks this is morally wrong and employs staff you all need to wake up and smell the coffee.

    Lets see what HMRC say about acceptable forms of id (this is for money laundering granted but the principle is the same in terms of due diligence)*: -

    Complying with customer due diligence requirements
    What is customer due diligence?
    Customer due diligence means taking steps to identify your customers and checking they are who they say they are. In practice this means obtaining the following from a customer:

    • their name
    • their photograph on an official document which confirms their identity
    • their residential address or date of birth
    The best way to do this is to ask for a government issued document like a passport, along with utility bills, bank statements and other official documents. Other sources of customer information include the electoral register and information held by credit reference agencies such as Experian and Equifax.

    *but I accept other forms of ID are acceptable in law. (but this is the choice of the employer).
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2014
    Posted: Jan 24, 2014 By: Steve Sellers Member since: Aug 7, 2011
    #30
  11. deniser

    deniser UKBF Legend

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    Morally wrong not to accept a birth certificate as evidence of the right to work on the grounds that it might be fake when it is listed as an acceptable document in the Government guidance.....

    Nowhere did I mention faked British passports. There are many countries in the EU. How would a prospective UK employer know whether a passport or identity card issued by another EU member state was fake any more than a UK birth certificate.
     
    Posted: Jan 24, 2014 By: deniser Member since: Jun 3, 2008
    #31
  12. Lease4Less

    Lease4Less UKBF Ace

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    Not disagreeing with you Richie, but as a driving licence shows place of birth I am unsure why this wouldn't prove eligibility.
     
    Posted: Jan 24, 2014 By: Lease4Less Member since: Jul 13, 2010
    #32
  13. Faevilangel

    Faevilangel Website Critic

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    She was born in the 60's

    She wants to work and pay her way but has no use for a passport and the costs far outweigh the benefits.
     
    Posted: Jan 24, 2014 By: Faevilangel Member since: Jun 29, 2009
    #33
  14. Steve Sellers

    Steve Sellers Verified Business ✔️

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    My point is that "morals" have nothing to do with this. If somebody doesn't like it then they can go get a job elsewhere. It may be officious but rather than be too cautious than not cautious about it at all.

    I accept you didn't. When I say British I meant EU passport. (they're all effectively the same now). EU passport is sufficient (its in List 1 of home office approved docs). A simple birth certificate IS NOT.

    "A full birth certificate issued in the United Kingdom which includes the name(s) of at least one of
    the holder’s parents, when produced in combination with an official document giving the person’s
    National Insurance Number and their name issued by a Government agency or a previous employer. "

    Documents giving the NI number are far more easily faked. So a passport will always be better in practice. I accept that employer doesn't need to take this course of action, but it is within its right subject to not discriminating on the grounds of nationality etc.
     
    Posted: Jan 24, 2014 By: Steve Sellers Member since: Aug 7, 2011
    #34
  15. Steve Sellers

    Steve Sellers Verified Business ✔️

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    What about £80? Are you being serious? No wonder this country is on its knees.

    I know if I needed a job I would get the passport, it seems like barriers are self created here.
     
    Posted: Jan 24, 2014 By: Steve Sellers Member since: Aug 7, 2011
    #35
  16. Faevilangel

    Faevilangel Website Critic

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    £80 is a lot to those with little income, and why should she get a passport when she won't ever use it,
     
    Posted: Jan 24, 2014 By: Faevilangel Member since: Jun 29, 2009
    #36
  17. deniser

    deniser UKBF Legend

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    This is overly officious though. Ridiculously over officious.

    There's a flow chart thing you can go through to check eligibility https://www.gov.uk/legal-right-work-uk

    It states quite clearly
    1. 1Does the worker have a UK passport?
      No
      Change this answer

    2. 2Is the worker:
      a British citizen?
      Change this answer
    The worker needs to show proof of their permission to work in the UK.
    They need to show both:

    • an official letter or document from a government agency (eg HM Revenue and Customs, Department for Work and Pensions, or the Social Security Agency in Northern Ireland) showing their National Insurance number
    • full birth, adoption certificate or naturalisation certificate
    Employers should take a copy of the relevant documents.

    And that's it - the total extent of the employer's obligation. It's not for the employer to worry about a cleverly forged document if it looks OK on the face of it.
     
    Posted: Jan 24, 2014 By: deniser Member since: Jun 3, 2008
    #37
  18. deniser

    deniser UKBF Legend

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    This is probably another argument in favour of an identity card which the British public haven't, on the whole, wanted.
     
    Posted: Jan 24, 2014 By: deniser Member since: Jun 3, 2008
    #38
  19. Nord20

    Nord20 UKBF Ace

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    But...clearly she will use it....to make it far easier to get a job.

    All the company needs to do is say that there is a possibility, at some point in the future, that maybe her job may require her to visit abroad (even Ireland would do it) and so she needs to have a passport.

    This is not likely to be only lost opportunity through lack of a passport.

    No, the world isn't fair - she needs to play the game: it isn't the company's that are losing out, she is, and if she needs to jump through that particular hoop, she probably just should, fair, moral, ethic, or not.
     
    Posted: Jan 24, 2014 By: Nord20 Member since: Mar 8, 2011
    #39
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  20. KM-Tiger

    KM-Tiger Verified Business ✔️

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    But why?

    It is *not* a legal requirement for a British Citizen to hold a passport. Never has been, and hopefully never will be. We have the freedom to travel anywhere in the world, and that requires a passport, but equally we have the freedom to not travel.

    British Citizens also have complete freedom to take a job in the UK.
     
    Posted: Jan 24, 2014 By: KM-Tiger Member since: Aug 10, 2003
    #40
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