Costs after launch webshop

Discussion in 'Magento Support' started by STVN, Jul 7, 2017.

  1. STVN

    STVN UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    Posts: 6 Likes: 0
    I have a question concerning the costs of a webshop after launch. We are now online since february with a webshop that was developed in Magento 2.0. If there are bugs in Magento , are the costs for solving these bugs for the webshopdeveloper or the for the company that payed for the webshop. I doesnt' sound logical that you have to pay for solving technical problems aftwerwards due to bugs in the system. I totally agree that you have to pay for support for example for learning how magento works. But if there are problems due to other reasons, it doesn't sound reasonable that we have to pay for the time the webshopdeveloper spends for learning how to fix these bugs. I like to compare it to this ;If a construction company builds an appartment and there are problems with windows that don't open. The owner of the apparment doesnt have to pay for fixing these windows right? :confused: We even have to pay for all communication regarding these bugs...

    In the beginning they said we were going to be kind of a pilot project and we were going to experience some child diseases in a manner of speaking. But that doesn't mean we have to suffer financially for the problems they have in Magento 2.0 right ?


    Does anyone have some experience here and could possibly give some insight on how other companies usually work this out together ?

    Thanks in advance !
     
    Posted: Jul 7, 2017 By: STVN Member since: Jul 7, 2017
    #1
  2. fisicx

    fisicx It's Major Clanger! Staff Member

    Posts: 27,751 Likes: 8,179
    If you have signed off the project and accepted the site then it's likely any bug fixing and changes will need to be paid for by you.

    Paying for communications is unusual but it all depends on the service level agreement the contact dictates.

    It looks as if you have found a developer that isn't too sure of themselves and is hoping to learn M2.0 using you are the guinea pig.
     
    Posted: Jul 7, 2017 By: fisicx Member since: Sep 12, 2006
    #2
  3. GoingOnline

    GoingOnline UKBF Contributor Free Member

    Posts: 50 Likes: 17
    It really depends, but if you accepted to be a pilot project, and you accepted the website as fit for purpose then it is likely you will need to pay for maintenance/support separately. You probably negotiated a cheaper deal on the website because the developer wanted it as portfolio, right?

    However, if the bugs are Magento 2 core related, you probably won't need to fix them yourself. You will most likely need to update your site to the next version with a patch that fixed the issue. It is open source, so many people are working to fix core issues.

    If the bug is with an extension that you purchased for Magento, then you will need to contact the developers for that extension.

    If the bug is with the theme or the code that was developed exclusively for your site, and you haven't signed any sort of "warranty" (for example, we usually give clients 6 months warranty for bugs that may not be obvious on delivery, but no new features or things that weren't on spec) you will need to pay for that out of your own pocket.
     
    Posted: Jul 7, 2017 By: GoingOnline Member since: Jun 18, 2011
    #3
  4. STVN

    STVN UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    Thanks for the replies. There weren't any "real agreements" on paper surrounding future support.
    We agreed to pay an hourly price for support.
    Does fixing a bug fall under maintenance ?

    The deal was around 28k for the webshop.

    I totally agree that we need to pay for new features and even support for things that we don"t understand in the magento software itself and they have to teach us etc.. but for example. We payed for a live chat extension. They charged us 3 production hours which is totally correct. But then they experience problems with the extension and the next month we get charged 260 euros to fix the bug caused by the live chat extension. I mean like, where does it end ...

    Every month they charge us +- 1500 euro with so many costs due to bugs that they have to investigate and fix. How can you ever even turn break even with that kind of price to pay each month.

    We kind of have this feeling about what you said about them using us as a guinea pig..
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
    Posted: Jul 7, 2017 By: STVN Member since: Jul 7, 2017
    #4
  5. fisicx

    fisicx It's Major Clanger! Staff Member

    Posts: 27,751 Likes: 8,179
    It all sounds very iffy.

    It must be an enormous site to cost 28K or you have something really special that nobody has ever done before. And to then charge 1500 per month for maintenance but not actually fix anything without further payment makes me wonder what you are paying for.

    Running a magento site shouldn't cost anywhere near this much. Even 3 hours for adding a live chat extension may be too much, last one I did took about 30 minutes.
     
    Posted: Jul 7, 2017 By: fisicx Member since: Sep 12, 2006
    #5
  6. Alan

    Alan UKBF Legend Full Member - Verified Business

    Posts: 5,613 Likes: 1,556
    If you had a written agreement for the initial build, then (maybe) there is a clause about acceptance and bug fixing. ( for instance in mine I will fix bugs notified within 30 days of acceptance )

    But you problem does stem from having no 'real agreements' for support - how can you be in that situation!
     
    Posted: Jul 7, 2017 By: Alan Member since: Aug 16, 2011
    #6
  7. STVN

    STVN UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    Posts: 6 Likes: 0
    I agree with what you say Alan about having no real agreements from the start but these are mistakes companies make when they have little to no knowledge about what it's like doing business in e-commerce.

    I don't want to spam links in here and i don't think I even can yet but the webshop is called Fashionteam "dot" be
    To be fair it has over 50000 sku's in it and it is synchronised with an erp system that has 3 different databases. And if i look it up the price sounds reasonable for the development but it's the maintenance costs that we don't agree with.

    For example we had an issue in Magento where the price reductions didn't show up properly. All price rules were set properly but they kept on dissapearing and the rules we created didn't go through correctly.
    They said they had to find a fix for it because normally they receive all information about price changes from the ERP system.
    Again we get charged for all the fixes..

    This was on the billing from the webshopdeveloper concerning these price rules in Magento ;
    (I translated it from dutch)

    1 )Catalog price rules indexers keeps crashing and a heavy load on the server --> 1hr work

    2) Catalog price rules issue and a bunch of mysql problems found + communication
    with Openminds for a solution --> 1hr 25 min work

    3) FAS-400: Catalog prices rules / Product list/detail - Bug with CSS that hides original price
    --> 2hrs16 mins work

    4) FAS-402 js error in mulitselect catalogrule --> 5 hrs work

    I can keep going but I think you get the my point..


    I have a feeling they are having so much work fixing problems on top of working on other projects that they just start charging us because otherwise they wouldn't be able to get out of their costs.

    Thanks again for all your replies, appreciate it getting some information !

    Kind regards
     
    Posted: Jul 7, 2017 By: STVN Member since: Jul 7, 2017
    #7
  8. Alan

    Alan UKBF Legend Full Member - Verified Business

    Posts: 5,613 Likes: 1,556
    As you have no 'real' contract - go shopping for another support firm, get a proper agreement that you are happy with.

    It is difficult to comment on the list above, the times could well be reasonable, tracking down problems is time consuming. It does sound like you have a complex set-up.
     
    Posted: Jul 7, 2017 By: Alan Member since: Aug 16, 2011
    #8
  9. Alan

    Alan UKBF Legend Full Member - Verified Business

    Posts: 5,613 Likes: 1,556
    Its not just e-commerce it is mistakes in business in general.
     
    Posted: Jul 7, 2017 By: Alan Member since: Aug 16, 2011
    #9
  10. fisicx

    fisicx It's Major Clanger! Staff Member

    Posts: 27,751 Likes: 8,179
    Once you had signed off the site their work was over. Anything you discover thereafter is a new project.

    So your problems began once you had approved the site and made the final payment.

    Do as Alan says and go find another developer.

    PS: I'm seeing all sorts of issues with the site - not bugs a such but a whole load of things that will stop the site being as effective as it could be.
     
    Posted: Jul 7, 2017 By: fisicx Member since: Sep 12, 2006
    #10
  11. STVN

    STVN UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    Posts: 6 Likes: 0
    I totally understand that it can take a while finding these solutions but I don't find it reasonable we have to pay for fixing all these issues coming from Magento wich gives us a monthly maintenance cost of 1500 euro's. That issue about price rules is just one example but every month something different shows up. So we're basically paying them for learning to fix these mistakes. IMO that is a learning experience for that company that they can use on other projects.

    After an argument about this they suddenly dropped the workhours for june from 50 to 19 hrs.
    Sounds sketchy.

    Thanks for the help !
     
    Posted: Jul 7, 2017 By: STVN Member since: Jul 7, 2017
    #11
  12. Alan

    Alan UKBF Legend Full Member - Verified Business

    Posts: 5,613 Likes: 1,556
    Definitely look for someone else ( p.s. don't ask me I don't do Magento :) )
     
    Posted: Jul 7, 2017 By: Alan Member since: Aug 16, 2011
    #12
  13. STVN

    STVN UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    Posts: 6 Likes: 0
    Thanks for the advice.
    What about intelectual property rights ? I don't know a lot about that stuff but is it that easy to just go to another firm. The source code is theirs right ? I'll try to figure out if there were any agreements in mails etc..
     
    Posted: Jul 7, 2017 By: STVN Member since: Jul 7, 2017
    #13
  14. Alan

    Alan UKBF Legend Full Member - Verified Business

    Posts: 5,613 Likes: 1,556
    If there is no agreement then indeed copyright will belong to them. Although this is highly abnormal as all web development agreements I have seen assign copyright on sign off & full payment.

    If you haven't got an agreement that covers this, another business mistake, I'm afraid.
     
    Posted: Jul 7, 2017 By: Alan Member since: Aug 16, 2011
    #14
  15. fisicx

    fisicx It's Major Clanger! Staff Member

    Posts: 27,751 Likes: 8,179
    and any scripts they wrote, extensions they paid for and any images they edited. The only thing you own is the actual conent you sent them for inclusion. And if you got this off a suppliers database you own nothing. Zitch. Zero.

    You may ave paid for a service and nothing more. So it's possible you are tied to them forever.
     
    Posted: Jul 7, 2017 By: fisicx Member since: Sep 12, 2006
    #15
  16. goivvy

    goivvy UKBF Contributor Free Member

    Posts: 63 Likes: 15
    Did you try talking to them about it and explain the situation?

    If you don't like them just tell them that and that you want to find somebody else and ask how could that be done with minimum downside.

    From my personal experience I didn't charge a client for a problem that was my fault in the first place. That is what most web devs do. What you got is not normal.
     
    Posted: Jul 7, 2017 By: goivvy Member since: Nov 29, 2016
    #16
  17. BREAKLINE UK

    BREAKLINE UK UKBF Contributor Full Member

    Posts: 31 Likes: 3
    This sounds like a nightmare. Always check your contracts and support agreement. We personally go over the papers for 2 hours with clients to explain what they get. At the moment we offer support contracts for minimum 2 years so you don't pay extra time. For the money you paid you should have support included at least for 6 months until everything is up to speed. Good luck and I hope you find someone more reliable.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2017
    Posted: Jul 7, 2017 By: BREAKLINE UK Member since: May 3, 2017
    #17
  18. Mark_Taylor_

    Mark_Taylor_ UKBF Regular Free Member

    Posts: 207 Likes: 53
    As an experienced magento developer with many websites under my belt, I'm all too aware of how troublesome Magento can be. It's a very complicated system out of the box and the more 3rd party modules and customisation work it gets more complicated still. It is very hard to predict how much time you will need to debug issues.

    At first glance some of these seem ok and some seem excessive, but without having a full picture of the issues etc this is just an observation.

    As a general rule HTML and CSS work should be easier / quicker to complete. javascript, database and backend php errors can be much more time consuming to debug.
     
    Posted: Jul 10, 2017 By: Mark_Taylor_ Member since: Jul 10, 2017
    #18
  19. webgeek

    webgeek UKBF Big Shot Full Member - Verified Business

    Posts: 3,898 Likes: 1,430
    You wanted a webshop, you got a webshop. Do you expect your mechanic to pay for your new clutch because Ford makes crappy clutches that wear out? Or pay for your wifes' mini cooper retractable convertible top, when the cables wear out and break every 50,000 miles?

    Sorry, but the platform is not the responsibility of the developer, unless it is their own proprietary in-house developed/branded system. Magento is community sponsored, for the most part, and that means you, as the site owner, pay when it needs upgraded, updated, bug fixed, module expanded, customised, localised, etc, etc, etc.

    With the power and flexibility of Magento comes significant costs along the way. There are simpler, cheaper to develop, less powerful choices on the market. Perhaps they didn't make this clear at the time of purchase - but then again, a Ford dealer won't tell you that the total lifetime cost of the twincharge, nitrous oxide injected, Focus RS is going to be higher than that of a Festiva. They just quote you a car that they think you can get a loan to cover and are willing to sign up to purchase.
     
    Posted: Jul 11, 2017 By: webgeek Member since: May 19, 2009
    #19
  20. STVN

    STVN UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    Posts: 6 Likes: 0
    So if I understand correctly you are saying that when you buy a brand new car and after 1 month it starts experiencing problems that you would accept paying for all the repairs it needs in order for you to be able to keep driving that car ? You would accept that ? You wouldn't go to the the guy who sold you that car ? We don't care about who made that car.. we are doing business with the guy who is selling the car. If he says that he can develop the webshop with no extra cost afterwards when it is finished then we expect him to put his money where his mouth is and not make us pay for using a brand new platform. Allthough I completely understand your point of view I don't agree that we should pay for all the bugfixes which means paying 1500 euros a month.
     
    Posted: Jul 13, 2017 By: STVN Member since: Jul 7, 2017
    #20