Cigarette Breaks

[locutus]

How many cigarette breaks a day is reasonable, and how long should a cigarette break length be? Is it reasonable to say cigarette breaks have to come from their lunch period? For example, if they have a 45 minute paid lunch break, and they have 3x5 minute smoke breaks, is it reasonable to say your lunch is only 30 minutes?

I have a couple of staff who are heavy smokers, and one likes to go for a cigarette every 45 minutes (they would smoke more frequent than that if they were not at work).

 

[fisicx]

The answer is very simple: they are not entitled to smoke breaks.

All they are entitled to is the breaks specified in their contract.

Allowing smokers to cough up their lungs every hour is unfair on those who don’t smoke.

If someone said they need a 10 minute break every 45 minutes to go and fiddle with their privates I suspect you would refuse. Why should a smoker be permitted the same?

 

[Mr D]

Many places I have worked have not been bothered by a smoke break in the morning and one in the afternoon.
Before work, one during morning, one at start of lunch hour, one at end of lunch hour, one during afternoon, one immediately after walking out of work. That's 6 fags in 8 hours.
I have worked with an addicted smoker, a lady who would start shaking if went too long without a fix. Her manager made sure that any meetings we had that were overlong would have a 10 minute pit stop break partway through for staff to get drinks, use toilet etc.
One person out of thousands I have worked with was an addict like that.

 

[Graham Tyers]

You also have to be careful because allowing smokers to have fag breaks means you have no argument against other staff who want to have regular "five minutes staring out of the window breaks" ignoring phones, customers or their machines.

 

[KM-Tiger]

any meetings we had that were overlong would have a 10 minute pit stop break partway through

I once did that with some Japanese people in Singapore. They all smoked liked chimneys so they could not believe their luck and their gratitude to me was unbounded.

Back in the UK, one in the morning and one in the afternoon does seem to be the norm in lots of workplaces. As said there is no entitlement but it seems to be accepted.

The every 45 mins employee should be advised to consider nicotine substitution products. They do work.

 

[locutus]

I once did that with some Japanese people in Singapore. They all smoked liked chimneys so they could not believe their luck and their gratitude to me was unbounded.

Back in the UK, one in the morning and one in the afternoon does seem to be the norm in lots of workplaces. As said there is no entitlement but it seems to be accepted.

The every 45 mins employee should be advised to consider nicotine substitution products. They do work.

KM Tiger, they don't want the nicotine substitution products. In Feb they attempted to give it a go, but was quite ill for a couple of weeks, and apparently smoking was the only thing making them feel better, so they started smoking again.

Currently, I don't have any non smoking staff, but when I've had non smokers, I tell them that any time they want to go for a 5 minute break (walk around the block kind of thing), they are welcome, but they don't.

 

[fisicx]

Makes no difference.

Break are as detailed in the contract. Nipping out for a fag every hour isn't in the contract so they don't have any rights to this break.

If you still want to let them have the breaks tell them they need to work longer to make up the time.

I had this when I managed a workshop. It added up to around 50 manhours of lost production every week. It's not a 5 minute break - it's stopping work, getting coat, walking outside, smoking then the return journey - 5 minutes soon becomes 15 every hour.

 

[Inva]

What about distraction from work when smokers need a smoke? It's not just the break period, if your mind is not in the job in the 30 mins prior to the break.

 

[Ian J]

The last time I worked for someone else was over 20 years ago and at the time I did smoke.

I had a couple of smoke breaks in the morning and one or two more in the afternoon but I did get to work at 7:30am and never left before 6pm so they still got more than their money's worth

 

[Chris Ashdown]

First don't allow any breaks apart from lawful requirements

If you ignore the above, then inform them that you will be deducting a minimum of 15 minutes pay for every time they go an a fag break , any time taken over 15 minutes then its minimum of 30 min deduction. They are to verbally request for the time off to you each time they want a fag break and report when back ready for work

Fag breaks are totally unfair to non smokers, and you are paying for many lost hours a year letting them have a break

 

[SteveHa]

First don't allow any breaks apart from lawful requirements

If you ignore the above, then inform them that you will be deducting a minimum of 15 minutes pay for every time they go an a fag break , any time taken over 15 minutes then its minimum of 30 min deduction. They are to verbally request for the time off to you each time they want a fag break and report when back ready for work

Be aware of NMW if you try this. You could find yourself in a whole heap of trouble if it puts pay below NMW requirements. (and yes, deducting 30 minutes for a 16 minute break from someone on NMW will put you in breach).

 

[Mr D]

First don't allow any breaks apart from lawful requirements

If you ignore the above, then inform them that you will be deducting a minimum of 15 minutes pay for every time they go an a fag break , any time taken over 15 minutes then its minimum of 30 min deduction. They are to verbally request for the time off to you each time they want a fag break and report when back ready for work

Fag breaks are totally unfair to non smokers, and you are paying for many lost hours a year letting them have a break

How do you feel about bathroom breaks?

Those who drink a lot more liquid / have physical problems affecting time or number of trips to loo / go regularly to the toilet are taking more time away from job than those who only go during the breaks they get?

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Be aware of NMW if you try this. You could find yourself in a whole heap of trouble if it puts pay below NMW requirements. (and yes, deducting 30 minutes for a 16 minute break from someone on NMW will put you in breach).

If they are not working they are not getting paid, they can use the 15 min as they please

 

[Chris Ashdown]

How do you feel about bathroom breaks?

Those who drink a lot more liquid / have physical problems affecting time or number of trips to loo / go regularly to the toilet are taking more time away from job than those who only go during the breaks they get?

I know you are very argumentative D, but that's rather petty don't you think. Do you post just to get your post count up?

 

[SteveHa]

If they are not working they are not getting paid, they can use the 15 min as they please

If they have a 16 minute break, but are docked pay for 30 minutes, then that is 14 minutes worked and pay is below NMW. It's a dangerous game to play.

 

[Mr D]

I know you are very argumentative D, but that's rather petty don't you think. Do you post just to get your post count up?

No, and not argumentative.
If smoke breaks are a problem, are toilet breaks? Same issue, time away from work. Just the reason is different.

 

[Mr D]

If they have a 16 minute break, but are docked pay for 30 minutes, then that is 14 minutes worked and pay is below NMW. It's a dangerous game to play.

So could that be done with exact time for unpaid breaks? Or would run up against NMW again?

 

[Chris Ashdown]

The way i see it is they can use the 15 or 30 min time as they please, they are not working for that time by volunteering to go outside and have a break, nothing to stop using a clocking in/out machine to log the working time
I think the NMW is a red herring, they are not working so why should they be paid

 

[SteveHa]

I think the NMW is a red herring, they are not working so why should they be paid

Then let me demonstrate. Worker is on £7.83 per hour NMW. Has a smoking break lasting 16 minutes, so you dock 30 minutes pay. That is £3.915 for 44 minutes work = £5.33 per hour. Instant NMW breach.

 

[Mr D]

The way i see it is they can use the 15 or 30 min time as they please, they are not working for that time by volunteering to go outside and have a break, nothing to stop using a clocking in/out machine to log the working time
I think the NMW is a red herring, they are not working so why should they be paid

They are presumably required to be on site / close enough to get back to work?

A few times over the years there have been employers who restricted the staff off duty as to callouts - and employer required to pay for them not being able to go out as they want during that time due to callout response time. Employees not at the workplace in those instances, employees required to be at work within a time limit.

 

[antropy]

As long as they don't take the mickey then it is ok. I would say 1 cigarette break in the morning and 1 cigarette break in the afternoon then that is it. Anything more then you may have to intervene. Alex

 

[Newchodge]

It is simple. Set a limit on the number and duration of breaks outside the normal lunch break. anyone can take them, for any reason, but must record their time away from their work and will not be paid.

Toilet breaks, for very obvious reasons, do not count.

 

[Ian J]

They are presumably required to be on site / close enough to get back to work?

Wifey is a nurse and she tells me that smoking staff have to go right off the premises for a smoke

 

[Mark Laurie]

We used to work 9-5 with UNPAID lunch of 30 minutes and 2 x 15 minute UNPAID breaks, one in the morning and one in the afternoon. It was a reasonably sized call centre and everyone was entitled to the breaks so no arguments from non-smokers.

 

[Higgsy]

Then let me demonstrate. Worker is on £7.83 per hour NMW. Has a smoking break lasting 16 minutes, so you dock 30 minutes pay. That is £3.915 for 44 minutes work = £5.33 per hour. Instant NMW breach.

If they are being docked the minutes; its because they weren't working...
So surely if they work 8 hours at £7.83ph (£62.64), and they are docked 30minutes (because they weren't actually working); they'd have worked 7.5 hours at £7.83 ph (£57.73), not 8 hours at £7.22?

If someone turns up 2 hours late for work, you don't pay them for the pleasure of being late?

 

[Mr D]

Wifey is a nurse and she tells me that smoking staff have to go right off the premises for a smoke

My local hospital there is a bus shelter put in place for smokers opposite hospital door.
The staff use it - the patients cluster outside the door.

 

[Mr D]

We used to work 9-5 with UNPAID lunch of 30 minutes and 2 x 15 minute UNPAID breaks, one in the morning and one in the afternoon. It was a reasonably sized call centre and everyone was entitled to the breaks so no arguments from non-smokers.

I worked in a call centre for a couple of years.
We had an hour lunch break and 2 x 20 minute breaks in a full shift. Whether 8 hours or 12 hours the breaks were the same.
The smokers would still take smoke breaks besides. The software logged the time away from desk if following protocol but didn't log reason.

 

[Ian J]

My local hospital there is a bus shelter put in place for smokers opposite hospital door.
The staff use it - the patients cluster outside the door.

It always makes me laugh when you see the patients outside sitting in their wheelchairs with a drip thingie alongside whilst they are puffing away in the freezing cold.

 

[Newchodge]

If they are being docked the minutes; its because they weren't working...
So surely if they work 8 hours at £7.83ph (£62.64), and they are docked 30minutes (because they weren't actually working); they'd have worked 7.5 hours at £7.83 ph (£57.73), not 8 hours at £7.22?

If someone turns up 2 hours late for work, you don't pay them for the pleasure of being late?

The proposal is to dock 30 minutes for a 16 minute break. That would be a potential breach of NMW and is done as a punitive measure, which should be unacceptable to a decent employer.

 

[Mark T Jones]

There is an interesting assumption through this thread that desk time = productivity

In some cases, being at a desk or 'hands on' is critical to productivity - although even there there should be other indicators (in a recent situation, one of the most reliably present staff was fairly unproductive - turns out she was mostly feeding here online shopping habit)

In many other cases there is little real relationship between being in the middle of the workplace & productivity. I often hold business conversations with people who are outside smoking, often smoking huddles are actually business meetings.

I wonder if many people are actually measuring the wrong things?

 

[Chris Ashdown]

are you assuming all smokers are office staff , they could well be operators ot machinery that is idle when they are smoking, piece work is still allowed which is based upon productivity but that's another question

 

[Higgsy]

The proposal is to dock 30 minutes for a 16 minute break. That would be a potential breach of NMW and is done as a punitive measure, which should be unacceptable to a decent employer.

Hi Cyndy,
Sorry didn't make my reply clear, I fully understand the 30 minutes for 16 minutes being wrong, not disputing that. I do feel if someone is going out for a 5 minute cigarette break and takes 15 minutes each time, then that time should be removed, but not any additional.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Group of 5 friends, 3 of whom smoke.
The 2 non smokers take up the habit so they can join the party. Seen it happen more than once.

 

[Bob Morgan]

There is an interesting assumption through this thread that desk time = productivity

In some cases, being at a desk or 'hands on' is critical to productivity - although even there there should be other indicators (in a recent situation, one of the most reliably present staff was fairly unproductive - turns out she was mostly feeding here online shopping habit)

In many other cases there is little real relationship between being in the middle of the workplace & productivity. I often hold business conversations with people who are outside smoking, often smoking huddles are actually business meetings.

I wonder if many people are actually measuring the wrong things?

I wholeheartedly agree! 'Productive Time' is NOT 'Attendance Time!' - Especially in a creative environment!

 

[nelioneil]

Group of 5 friends, 3 of whom smoke.
The 2 non smokers take up the habit so they can join the party. Seen it happen more than once.

I thought for a second you were going to introduce us to a riddle

 

[menetworkjadaltd]

Have a clock in clock out system for all staff... Not working not paying

 

[HFE Signs]

Smoking breaks are a thing of the past, everyone gets the same breaks. If someone decides to go outside to smoke during their break they may.

 

[BustersDogs]

When I was an employee I was infuriated by all the extra time off that smokers got. If I decided to stop working while the smokers were out and do nothing, I would soon be in trouble (not to say unspeakably bored). I would like to be able to leave for home 10 mins early for every break smokers take. So if they take 3 I get to go home half an hour early. Tyvm.