Chinese eBay sellers with UK based stock

Discussion in 'Ecommerce Forum' started by Beachbum, Jul 12, 2014.

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  1. Beachbum

    Beachbum UKBF Contributor Free Member

    68 18
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2015
    Posted: Jun 5, 2015 By: Beachbum Member since: Jul 12, 2014
  2. wrights83

    wrights83 UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    6 0
    Hello & just like to say what you're doing is amazing!.

    Me & some other sellers on amazon are getting increasingly annoyed with Chinese fulfilment sellers & even UK sellers clearly not paying correct taxes.

    Something needs to change!
    Posted: Jun 13, 2015 By: wrights83 Member since: Jun 11, 2015
  3. boring-friday

    boring-friday UKBF Enthusiast Free Member

    566 166
    just read a lot of the thread. I noticed the amount of tax dodgers within a couple of weeks of starting my own business. Most of my suppliers think I'm Jesus for declaring full value.
    I think it must be that the government/hmrc don't care/like people not paying it. I'm no economist but it would be very easy for them to fine online marketplaces and couriers for this. In the US paypal ask for a ssn as soon as you hit around 20k$, easy for them to be made to introduce something similar here. But they do nothing other than odd token fine/jail term for a few randoms.
    Posted: Jun 14, 2015 By: boring-friday Member since: Jun 5, 2015
  4. wrights83

    wrights83 UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    6 0
    Exactly! You have to tell suppliers to declare the correct value on the invoice otherwise they automatically undervalue it. According to my suppliers nearly all of their UK customers undervalue the invoice.
    If that's true then surely VAT registered businesses are undervaluing their imports. How come HMRC doesn't pick up on this when they do their VAT returns? Surely the figures don't add up i.e. hardly any input VAT compared to output VAT.
    Posted: Jun 14, 2015 By: wrights83 Member since: Jun 11, 2015
  5. Pish_Pash

    Pish_Pash UKBF Ace Free Member

    2,426 629
    If a UK business is asking their overseas supplier to undervalue, it's surely because they are not VAT registered - if they were VAT registered, there'd be no point in asking the supplier to undervalue - because they can claim all the input VAT back!
    Posted: Jun 14, 2015 By: Pish_Pash Member since: Feb 1, 2013
  6. wrights83

    wrights83 UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    6 0
    Yeh good point.

    It's pretty disgusting practise from Chinese suppliers to automatically undervalue imports. sets no good example for new businesses importing goods.

    For all the millions/billions of £s HMRC are losing they could employ a whole new division of staff to investigate import values are what they say they are. As soon as a company has imported a certain amount of times it flags up & HMRC should require additional information from the importer.
    Posted: Jun 14, 2015 By: wrights83 Member since: Jun 11, 2015
  7. kevhippo

    kevhippo UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    1 0
    So glad I found this thread. Weve been hit with competition from overseas sellers (mainly chinese) either using Amazon Fulfillment or selling on ebay using UK fulfillment centres. None are VAT registered despite there being no threshold for such sellers and all should register for VAT.

    I made a couple of personal puchases on ebay recently and realised the sellers were based overseas although the goods were being shipped from the UK and within the UK. One US seller had over £5.5 million in ebay sales in the last 6 months. On one listing alone they had sold £55k worth of items, shipped from the UK to the UK.

    Whilst I accept it may be hard for HMRC to catch the large numbers of different sellers what they should do is deal with it in the same way as VAT planning schemes where they outlaw any loopholes. So for this issue they could legislate and make the 'venue' responsible for ensuring VAT is accounted for. So Amazon and Ebay would be liable if they allow goods in the UK to be shipped within the UK with the seller not having a valid VAT registration number. For Amazon to allow imports into their fulfillment centres which are then shipped within the UK is clearly conspiracy to knowingly allow the evasion of taxe. Whilst they are currently requiring more info to verify sellers this process does not include requiring VAT registration numbers from overseas sellers using their UK fulfillment centres. In effect they are allowing goods to be laundered through their own warehouses.

    Unfortunately HMRC seem to spend too long hammering those already in the system instead of dealing with the masses who keep themselves out of the system.
    Posted: Jun 22, 2015 By: kevhippo Member since: Jun 22, 2015
  8. wrights83

    wrights83 UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    6 0
    The petitions site is open again. lets get this show on the road!
    Posted: Jul 23, 2015 By: wrights83 Member since: Jun 11, 2015
  9. Leather Briefcase Company

    Leather Briefcase Company UKBF Regular Full Member - Verified Business

    292 63
    Cannot find the petition.
    Someone please post a link!
    Posted: Jul 23, 2015 By: Leather Briefcase Company Member since: Jul 24, 2013
  10. dooyoo

    dooyoo UKBF Contributor Free Member

    68 3
    Have you guys seen this article???

    First lines from there:
    "Online sellers who use Ebay, holiday letting websites and other internet retailers will face one of the "biggest tax crackdowns in history" under government plans to obtain details of millions of online transactions.

    HMRC wants to collect "bulk" information from internet companies to target thousands of people who fail to declare income they make online, costing the taxman billions of pounds every year............"

    Wonder how they would get Chinese sellers!?!?!
    Posted: Jul 25, 2015 By: dooyoo Member since: Jul 6, 2013
  11. Beachbum

    Beachbum UKBF Contributor Free Member

    68 18
    Posted: Jul 29, 2015 By: Beachbum Member since: Jul 12, 2014
  12. Beachbum

    Beachbum UKBF Contributor Free Member

    68 18
    They haven't got a chance of getting any money out of them even if they are caught.

    HMRC are showing a REACTIVE chasing game & will always be behind curve. The horse has already blotted with all the cash.

    About time they came up with a PROACTIVE solution for once
    Posted: Jul 29, 2015 By: Beachbum Member since: Jul 12, 2014
  13. TMGG

    TMGG UKBF Regular Free Member

    193 22
    They may not get the overseas sellers but at the very least stop them operating. Let's not forget that plenty of Brits are also evading tons of tax too and that has been going on far longer.
    Posted: Jul 29, 2015 By: TMGG Member since: Jan 6, 2010
  14. Beachbum

    Beachbum UKBF Contributor Free Member

    68 18
    Posted: Jul 29, 2015 By: Beachbum Member since: Jul 12, 2014
  15. switched-on

    switched-on UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    1 0
    in its pursuit of more data-gathering powers HMRC have recently launched a consultation document titled, 'Tackling the hidden economy: Extension of data-gathering powers' which closes on 14th October 2015.

    The rationale for HMRC's desire to be more intrusive is the hidden economy. In 2012/13 the Revenue estimates that the tax gap; the difference between actual tax receipts and the tax that would be due if all taxpayers played fair, as a direct result of the hidden economy stood at £5.9 billion – 17% of the total tax gap.

    google 'Tackling the hidden economy: Extension of data-gathering powers'
    Posted: Aug 13, 2015 By: switched-on Member since: Nov 8, 2012
  16. Mister B

    Mister B UKBF Ace Free Member

    2,448 566
    Great thread and a great cause. We're being hurt badly by the foreign sellers and action needs to be taken.

    Petition signed and shared on facebook.

    Mister B
    Posted: Aug 19, 2015 By: Mister B Member since: Aug 31, 2007
  17. GraemeL

    GraemeL Pain in the neck? Full Member - Verified Business

    5,116 1,105

    It up to 409 now. 10,000 required!

    Posted: Aug 19, 2015 By: GraemeL Member since: Sep 7, 2011
  18. Michael Kart

    Michael Kart UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    1 0
    We are in the same situation, currently having a really tough time on eBay/Amazon due to Chinese sellers operating out of the UK via fulfillment services. I have read the whole thread and my conclusion so far is this:
    1) in a way I'm fighting a lost battle: sure, the Asian sellers are not paying the correct VAT, but even if they did (or rather WHEN they do) the situation would not change much. We should all agree that what they do is taking a middle man out of the equation (myself). While this whole thing does not comfort me at all, I see it as a relentless drive of a human race for efficiency and I applaud such evolutionary development. It was just a matter of time. If you think about, the end customer gets better priced products - full stop!
    2) from the practical standpoint, rather than going warehouses and smashing things up (as someone has suggested on this thread), or sit still and wait for the bankruptcy to come, I'm currently thinking of employing a much more sophisticated approach to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. I trust if the mountain will not come to Muhammad, then Muhammad must go to the mountain. Here is what I think:
    a) scan all categories on eBay and root out those sellers who have non-UK business address and offer the UK based deliveries
    b) for each individual get their entire list of items on sale as well as historic records of sold items.
    c) work out a precise turnover (looking at feedback would only give me a half of what I need) + make some projections based on the trend.
    d) report to HMRC, media, etc. by naming and shaming with precise numbers and estimates.

    As someone has pointed out here, HMRC would only get involved if they have a "business case". Without an estimate of the scale of this disaster there is no way for them to know how big the issue has become. Well then, this can be quite easily worked out for them if they are so incapable of doing it themselves (with all their glorious accesses to eBay/PayPal/Debit cards - you name it). Let's roll up our sleeves and brainstorm! Happy to take your suggestions and/or donations to retain an IT analytic guru to get this off the ground. The one who does all such analysis for me charges £300 per day (which was well worth it as what he has done for me in the past no Terapeak could ever have dreamed of). Spoken to him the other night, he reckons that this whole idea would probably cost around £1-1.5k

    This might sound bitter, I know, but I'm in favor of level-playing field. As I pay my dues 100%, why should let my business fail just because someone cuts corners by underpaying their dues? Methinks this bout ain't lost....yet
    Posted: Aug 19, 2015 By: Michael Kart Member since: Aug 19, 2015
  19. Mister B

    Mister B UKBF Ace Free Member

    2,448 566
    It's not being bitter at all Michael, as you say, all we want is to play on a level playing field. Just think of what the government can do with the additional revenue...

    409 signatures so far, if each coughed up £10 to a battle fund, then there's almost £5k to fund some research.

    I'll gladly contribute.

    Mister B
    Posted: Aug 19, 2015 By: Mister B Member since: Aug 31, 2007
  20. japancool

    japancool UKBF Big Shot Full Member

    3,407 650
    This will not stop sellers who dispatch from outside the UK into the UK and underdeclare the value of the goods.
    Posted: Aug 19, 2015 By: japancool Member since: Jul 11, 2013
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