Can I put this holiday through the books?

Discussion in 'Accounts & Finance' started by Matthew Hughes, Jun 14, 2019 at 11:01 PM.

  1. Matthew Hughes

    Matthew Hughes UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    4 0
    Hi all, first post!

    So I run a music tuition company, and I wondered whether I could class the following holiday as a business expense...

    So as part of the syllabus I teach, I have to teach Italian terms. As part of this I've recently been trying to learn Italian a bit more comprehensively (rather than the occasional word)

    Could I put a trip to Italy through the books? It would be educational and just me as a solo traveler. As teaching it is required as part of my business, can I class this as training?
     
    Posted: Jun 14, 2019 at 11:01 PM By: Matthew Hughes Member since: Jun 14, 2019
    #1
  2. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

    14,176 1,553
    Is it wholly, necessarily and exclusively a business expense?
     
    Posted: Jun 14, 2019 at 11:19 PM By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
    #2
  3. Matthew Hughes

    Matthew Hughes UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    4 0
    Could be argued either way.

    Would definitely improve my teaching if I had first hand experience of the language and culture. But then again, wouldn't be the collapse of my business if I did not go.

    I thought that if I ever got an inspection, I could prove that I have been reasonable about it. Ie, it was only 3 days, flew economy, cheap hotel, only me traveling etc... But I don't know how well this will hold up against HMRC...
     
    Posted: Jun 14, 2019 at 11:22 PM By: Matthew Hughes Member since: Jun 14, 2019
    #3
  4. billybob99

    billybob99 UKBF Regular Free Member

    950 185
    Yes.

    Just stick it thru, and any others as well.
     
    Posted: Jun 15, 2019 at 12:17 AM By: billybob99 Member since: Apr 23, 2013
    #4
  5. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

    14,176 1,553
    If it could go either way then HMRC will probably take a different view.

    First hand experience of the language, you can get these days from videos, DVDs, language lessons, online courses etc.
    Or indeed travelling to a region and trying to talk to the people. Just that can look like a holiday at company expense.
     
    Posted: Jun 15, 2019 at 12:47 AM By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
    #5
  6. Bob Morgan

    Bob Morgan UKBF Regular Free Member

    191 43
    Perhaps an observer from HMRC would care to comment?
     
    Posted: Jun 15, 2019 at 12:53 AM By: Bob Morgan Member since: Apr 15, 2018
    #6
  7. obscure

    obscure UKBF Ace Free Member

    2,833 659
    I would assume that HMRC are well versed in people attempting to claim personal holidays as a tax right off. I would assume that if you are going to claim it was an educational trip you will need to demonstrate that you spent all or most of your time attending actual educational courses.... not drinking espresso and chit chatting with the locals.
     
    Posted: Jun 15, 2019 at 4:28 AM By: obscure Member since: Jan 18, 2008
    #7
  8. UK Contractor Accountant

    UK Contractor Accountant UKBF Big Shot Full Member - Verified Business

    4,522 754
    You can stick what you like through the company. It's what you put on the P11D is the question you need to consider.
     
    Posted: Jun 15, 2019 at 7:26 AM By: UK Contractor Accountant Member since: Sep 18, 2013
    #8
  9. Ian J

    Ian J Factoring Specialist Full Member - Verified Business

    5,171 1,474
    Perhaps an observer from HMRC might respond more positively if the OP didn't contain the word "holiday"


     
    Posted: Jun 15, 2019 at 8:31 AM By: Ian J Member since: Nov 6, 2004
    #9
  10. The Byre

    The Byre UKBF Ace Free Member

    8,503 3,291
    If I fly to a business meeting or a trade-fair in Amsterdam or Berlin, book an hotel and incur other expenses, that is obviously a tax-deductible business expense. If I visit my family in Berlin or Munich, that is not a business expense in the slightest way.

    If you go swanning off to La Bella Italia, lounging in the sun and picking up a couple of Italian birds for intensive language training (IMO the only way to learn a foreign language!) that too is not a business expense in the slightest way.

    BUT

    If you go to an Italian language school in Italy and have intensive and fully immersive language training, together with field trips for practicing the language, that would be a reasonable business expense, but only insofar as you did not do anything that could be regarded as 'private enjoyment' - then you would have to probably split the whole thing 50:50.
     
    Posted: Jun 15, 2019 at 10:28 AM By: The Byre Member since: Aug 13, 2013
    #10
  11. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

    11,896 3,084
    What, do you mean like eating the food and drinking the wine???
     
    Posted: Jun 15, 2019 at 10:48 AM By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
    #11
  12. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

    11,896 3,084
    Do you REALLY need to learn Italian in order to teach Italian musical terms?
     
    Posted: Jun 15, 2019 at 10:49 AM By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
    #12
  13. billmccallum1957

    billmccallum1957 UKBF Ace Full Member

    1,945 410
    Using your own words, it's a holiday and not a business expense.
     
    Posted: Jun 15, 2019 at 10:57 AM By: billmccallum1957 Member since: Feb 11, 2016
    #13
  14. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

    14,176 1,553
    No.
     
    Posted: Jun 15, 2019 at 11:04 AM By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
    #14
  15. MY OFFICE IN CHINA

    MY OFFICE IN CHINA UKBF Big Shot Full Member

    4,041 812
    Go to Italy.

    Put through 50% as a business expense.

    Life is too short not to take ANY opportunity to visit Italy!
     
    Posted: Jun 15, 2019 at 12:13 PM By: MY OFFICE IN CHINA Member since: Nov 16, 2011
    #15
  16. Adam93

    Adam93 UKBF Regular Free Member

    245 47
    Have you just made this rule up? Any statutory references/case law to back this up?

    I'm guessing not so probably best this advice is ignored. When HMRC come knocking they will ask what the holiday (in your own words) related to, and you'll say, this bloke on a internet forum said I could claim it...

    You shouldn't use the taxpayer to subsidise your holiday.

    Here it is in black and white - https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/business-income-manual/bim37610

    If you actually operate via a limited company, then p11d benefit is on point.

    Probably best, you get an accountant
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019 at 1:35 PM
    Posted: Jun 15, 2019 at 1:30 PM By: Adam93 Member since: Jan 18, 2018
    #16
  17. paulears

    paulears UKBF Big Shot Full Member

    3,786 935
    I'm pretty hot at Italian musical terms, and I found it no use at all on a recent visit to venice. The taxi went antandino, but my wife went accelerando with some reminders about the ships leaving time. My jokes were giacoso. but my progres got ritardando as the crowd got strepitoso. Not sure HMRC would attack this one alla brio!
     
    Posted: Jun 15, 2019 at 1:33 PM By: paulears Member since: Jan 7, 2015
    #17
  18. The Byre

    The Byre UKBF Ace Free Member

    8,503 3,291
    Molto bravura!
     
    Posted: Jun 15, 2019 at 1:45 PM By: The Byre Member since: Aug 13, 2013
    #18
  19. MY OFFICE IN CHINA

    MY OFFICE IN CHINA UKBF Big Shot Full Member

    4,041 812
    Sadly, no references or case law to back this up.

    Just my love of Italy.

    If he is attending SOME courses, then 50% is probably viable.

    Take a humorous post in the context it was meant in . . . . . .

    Le auguro una splendita giornata!
     
    Posted: Jun 15, 2019 at 2:16 PM By: MY OFFICE IN CHINA Member since: Nov 16, 2011
    #19
  20. Ian J

    Ian J Factoring Specialist Full Member - Verified Business

    5,171 1,474
    I've just come back from a week in Sardinia. I was looking for factoring opportunities but unfortunately didn't find any. Is it OK for me to put 50% of our costs against tax.

    Incidentally I had to take my wife with me as I don't speak Italian and she is fluent in pasta
     
    Posted: Jun 15, 2019 at 2:23 PM By: Ian J Member since: Nov 6, 2004
    #20