Brexit negotiations

Discussion in 'Time Out' started by Scott-Copywriter, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

    17,724 2,024
    Wow, considerable difference in groupings there in what remain generally do and what leave generally do.
    Your evidence on that? Or just your experience in talking to the two different groups?
     
    Posted: Nov 13, 2019 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
  2. Chawton

    Chawton UKBF Regular Free Member

    131 52
    Brexit was, fundementally about people 1. reasserting their belief in the nation state and 2. taking control of their borders. There's no mileage in banging on about Brexiteers 'peddling debunked' nuanced (and wholly subordinate) claims. I appreciate you want to have the debate at that level but you don't get to.

    Formulate an argument which overcomes the majority's desire to be self governing and self determining. And make it a bit more pithy than your usual multi paragraph tormented ideological ramblings.
     
    Posted: Nov 13, 2019 By: Chawton Member since: Mar 21, 2018
  3. Clodbuster

    Clodbuster UKBF Enthusiast Full Member

    767 120
    Libelous statement. I take you have a link that states he is a criminal.
     
    Posted: Nov 13, 2019 By: Clodbuster Member since: Apr 24, 2008
  4. Cobby

    Cobby UKBF Ace Free Member

    4,100 859
    Firstly, if you don't appreciate more in-depth discussion then twitter with its 280 character limit might be more your speed. This is a complex topic and people trading badly-summarised posts of three sentences with each other is why nothing gets communicated properly.

    As for your first paragraph, well that kinda backs up my previous point. Retreading old and debunked arguments.
    1. We are a sovereign state. The government, run by Johnson (the chairman of the Leave campaign) acknowledges as such. A statement acknowledging such is present in his Withdrawal Agreement. Being a sovereign state, we have rights to do things such as Leaving the EU or, having begun the process of leaving, Revoke the notification. Were we not sovereign, these options would not be available to us.

    2. We have control of our borders. Is that short and pithy enough?
     
    Posted: Nov 13, 2019 By: Cobby Member since: Oct 28, 2009
  5. Cobby

    Cobby UKBF Ace Free Member

    4,100 859
    It's a question. No need for your fervent defence of "dear leader".
     
    Posted: Nov 13, 2019 By: Cobby Member since: Oct 28, 2009
  6. RobinBHM

    RobinBHM UKBF Regular Free Member

    187 69
    That is the problem with any brexit debate.
    The leave side was successful due to its ability to take hugely complex issues and break it down into simplistic emotive sound bites.

    Its much easier to sell 'get back sovereignty', or 'get back control' -even if means nothing.

    What does that actually mean?
    The UK is self governing? - ironically brexiteers complain bitterly when they feel parliament has too much power and wants the executive to be scrutinised.
     
    Posted: Nov 13, 2019 By: RobinBHM Member since: Apr 14, 2012
  7. RobinBHM

    RobinBHM UKBF Regular Free Member

    187 69
    Very true, unfortunately few people want to research or discuss the detail, its much easier to argue with soundbites that arent backed up with fact.
     
    Posted: Nov 13, 2019 By: RobinBHM Member since: Apr 14, 2012
  8. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

    12,834 3,349
    How do you know?
     
    Posted: Nov 13, 2019 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
  9. Chawton

    Chawton UKBF Regular Free Member

    131 52
    Because it is what Remainers accuse them of. Or to put it in Remainer speak that you might recognise:

    1. Being small minded/little Englanders
    2. Being racist

    Keep up.
     
    Posted: Nov 13, 2019 By: Chawton Member since: Mar 21, 2018
  10. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

    17,724 2,024
    Here it was fundamentally about people deciding for UK to be in the EU or not.

    Could be multiple reasons why any one person decided the way they did. I expect some did vote the way they did on border issue. Not sure about the nation state bit, did not appear to be discussed much as a reason prior to the vote. Certainly the nation state bit did not impact my voting at all.
     
    Posted: Nov 13, 2019 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
  11. RobinBHM

    RobinBHM UKBF Regular Free Member

    187 69
    Compared to what?
    Many companies have in the past chosen the UK as a location because it is within the single market with virtually frictionless trade into the biggest trade bloc in the world.

    The single market has gone much much further in its quest to eliminate trade barriers than any other trade bloc -esp in the case of services.

    The UK will lose the benefits of the single market, it will become less competive as NTBs will make trade costs rise.

    The boring complex stuff like regulatory alignment.....not something ever mentioned in brexit discussions. Unfortunately it is the boring complex detail where pro brexit arguments fail scrutiny.
     
    Posted: Nov 13, 2019 By: RobinBHM Member since: Apr 14, 2012
  12. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

    12,834 3,349
    Are you seriously suggesting that peope who support remain are the only ones who know why people voted to leave? Are you real?
     
    Posted: Nov 13, 2019 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
  13. Chawton

    Chawton UKBF Regular Free Member

    131 52
    No, I'm meeting the hackneyed criticisms of Brexiteers motives head-on and providing the counterpoint. This is important because they're frequently invoked by Remainers to de-legitimise the result of the referendum.

    Frankly it is an indictment that it is necessary to do this, however the contempt Brexiteers are shown makes it so. So once again, for:

    1. 'Little Englanders' please read: reasserting their belief in the nation state, and;
    2. 'Racist' please read: taking control of their borders.

    Both entirely valid, legitimate motives.

    From there, onward to the economic 'arguments', (amongst others). Now at that stage things do get more complex and-frankly-unknowable. Economics is not a Newtonian science, it is far more accurate to say it is a branch of human psychology. Crucially though this is a conundrum to be resolved; it is NOT a point which trumps the democratic process and magically puts Brexit to a second referendum.
     
    Posted: Nov 13, 2019 By: Chawton Member since: Mar 21, 2018
  14. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

    12,834 3,349
    What a pile of garbage. You said:
    Brexit was, fundementally about people 1. reasserting their belief in the nation state and 2. taking control of their borders.

    and when I asked how you knew that, a simpe question, capable of a simple, factual answer, you spouted this pile of complete garbage, going on about Remain voters and arguments of no relevance whatsoever, you pratt, to your quote and my question. Are you Clinton in disguise?
     
    Posted: Nov 13, 2019 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
  15. Chawton

    Chawton UKBF Regular Free Member

    131 52
    You'll forgive me if I don't descend to name calling in response.

    No desire to continue the debate at a hysterical level, Newchodge.
     
    Posted: Nov 13, 2019 By: Chawton Member since: Mar 21, 2018
  16. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

    12,834 3,349
    No ability to answer, then.
     
    Posted: Nov 13, 2019 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
  17. Clinton

    Clinton UKBF Big Shot Free Member

    4,582 1,752
    Yes, absolutely, we are one and the same person. :p

    How can there be TWO people in the UK who think you're nuts? ;) It's got to be just one!
     
    Posted: Nov 14, 2019 By: Clinton Member since: Jan 17, 2010
  18. Cobby

    Cobby UKBF Ace Free Member

    4,100 859
    No, you're meeting nothing, this is circular reasoning.

    ►Brexit is about a belief in nation state!
    ↵ How do you know this?
    ►It's what Remainers tell us!
    ↵ What does that even mean!?
    ►It means you think we're little Englanders!
    ↵ Remainers aren't responsible for your motives.
    ►WOah, caLM doWN! When I say "little Englanders" I mean a belief in the nation state! ~LOOP~
     
    Posted: Nov 15, 2019 By: Cobby Member since: Oct 28, 2009
  19. MBE2017

    MBE2017 UKBF Ace Free Member

    1,114 300
    All the main parties seem to have discovered money trees, each one trying to throw more money around than the others to buy votes. Hopefully when the manifestos are published they can be seen for what they are, mainly false promises.
     
    Posted: Nov 15, 2019 By: MBE2017 Member since: Feb 16, 2017
  20. Cobby

    Cobby UKBF Ace Free Member

    4,100 859
    The biggest problem with the reliability of the manifestos - specifically the costing - is that neither leading party are accounting for the economic downturn (and the resulting hit to the public purse) Brexit would cause.
     
    Posted: Nov 15, 2019 By: Cobby Member since: Oct 28, 2009