Antisemitism and the Labour Party

Discussion in 'Time Out' started by Blaby Loyal, Aug 2, 2018.

  1. Blaby Loyal

    Blaby Loyal UKBF Regular Free Member

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    How did this all come about?

    There seems to be a constant stream of allegations, comments and issues linking Labour MPs, officials and the like with antisemitism.

    Is it some kind of (unpleasant) discrediting/undermining exercise or a real problem within their ranks?
     
    Posted: Aug 2, 2018 By: Blaby Loyal Member since: Jun 12, 2018
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  2. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

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    There may be a minor issue with some members of the Labour party, but the bigger issue is the tendency of Labour party members to complain about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. The Israeli government finds those complaints unacceptable and has hit on the brilliant idea of labelling such criticism as anti-semitism. To my mind this is a callous act which underminesthe reality of anti-semitism. This policy has resulted in the, to me, incredible labelling of a Jewish holocaust survivor as anti-semitic because he has complained of the treatment of the Palestinians and has likened their treatment to the treatment meted out by the Nazis. (This was one of the contributors to the 2010 meeting about which Corbyn recently apologised).

    This is being used by the establishment and the right wing Labour MPs to attack Corbyn personally, as they are unable to attack his proposed policies.

    It is interesting that, apart from reporting the comment, the recent complaint of widespread Islamophobia within the Conservative party, made by Baroness Warsi has generated 0 interest in the media.
     
    Posted: Aug 2, 2018 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
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  3. Paul Norman

    Paul Norman UKBF Ace Free Member

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    I have discussed this with our local MP, face to face. It is a sensitive issue.

    First, you need to decide on your definition of antisemitism. Is it a specific name for racism aimed at the Jewish people? For those seeking to use it as political weaponry against the Labour party, that is not, mostly, their definition. They would regard criticism of the Israeli government, or of the Jewish religion, as antisemitic. This, of course, brings about a strange outcome, because it would be virtually the only religion and political structure to have that level of protection from critical comment.

    Secondly, of course, within parliament on both sides, there are a minority of MP's who have believes, and have said things, that should properly have them removed from office. I hear significantly more racism, though, from the right, although once again that is just a small number of people.

    The issue here, of course, is that politics right now is being conducted in a high tension environment, and that combines with the fact that Mr Corbyn, with a return to actual left wing thinking rather than the Thatcher-lite policies of New Labour, is attracting a lot of very energetic opposition from a society that is probably moving to the right.

    For those of us around in the 70's, Corbyn does not seem extreme at all. He is a welcome alternative to the idea that the poor should be exploited to make the richer more rich.

    Sadly, though, he is no match for the political anger of the right, and I rather suspect he will not win this game. I cannot see how Labour could ever win an election in a UK that is happy to see left leaning individuals dismissed as communists and traitors in a way that sounds increasingly like American politics.

    As an aside, I quite like being dismissed as a traitor. Ever the rebel, here.
     
    Posted: Aug 2, 2018 By: Paul Norman Member since: Apr 8, 2010
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  4. Blaby Loyal

    Blaby Loyal UKBF Regular Free Member

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    "First, you need to decide on your definition of antisemitism. Is it a specific name for racism aimed at the Jewish people?"

    It's difficult for me to pin the "racism" label on this - are the Jews a race or 'simply' a religion.
     
    Posted: Aug 2, 2018 By: Blaby Loyal Member since: Jun 12, 2018
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  5. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

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    Yes, some take disagreement with Israel as anti-Semitism. Some take inclusion of all those civilians sent to the death camps (11 million or so) by the Germans as anti-Semitism because its not focusing on the Jews. You can get away with mentioning 6 million Jews killed but mention the Goyim too and its a no no from some.


    Perhaps the Labour party has attracted more people willing to speak out against what they see as injustice. And some of that gets labelled as anti-Semitism.
    Only accounts for part of the problem.

    There is also some criticism of Jews too - not Israel - that according to some takes place.
     
    Posted: Aug 2, 2018 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
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  6. The Byre

    The Byre UKBF Ace Free Member

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    The Tories (who brought us into the Common Market and signed up for every step towards deeper integration with the EU) are now tearing themselves apart over - yes! Europe! Woopee!

    Labour (founded mostly by Jews and Scotsmen) has in the past been tearing itself apart over Scotland and now over Jews. Once again, dare I say it, but - Woopee!

    Workplaces are (in the more enlightened companies, such as the one run by yours truly!) becoming lateral, evened-out ventures of co-determining people and each their own boss. The information age has given every person the tools to become an enlightened and well-informed individual.

    Yet the political machinery that governs this (and other) countries, remains in the hands of a diminishing group of unenlightened and largely innumerate and myopic collection of bigots, fools and charlatans, each clinging desperately to out-dated hierarchical structures that should have been swept away half a century ago.

    We have non-economists running the economy, we have non-lawyers drafting legislation, we have people who can only speak English (and that mostly as a stream of verbal diarrhoea peppered with grammatical mistakes) representing us abroad. I look at the 'Body Politic' and say WTF.

    And as for Israel, I lived there for nearly a year and quickly learned that both sides of the Arab-Israeli argument are being lead by some deeply evil and self-serving individuals who require conflict to remain in power.

    You get to become a martyr for the cause, I get to be rich and powerful.
     
    Posted: Aug 2, 2018 By: The Byre Member since: Aug 13, 2013
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  7. Blaby Loyal

    Blaby Loyal UKBF Regular Free Member

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    @ the Byre - Interesting comments/observations/claims - thanks for commenting.
     
    Posted: Aug 2, 2018 By: Blaby Loyal Member since: Jun 12, 2018
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  8. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

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    We have non-economists running the economy. Do economists agree about how to run the economy? Was under the impression they disagree with each other to a large degree.
    Non lawyers drafting legislation? Or are there lawyers drafting it for the non lawyers to vote on it?
     
    Posted: Aug 2, 2018 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
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  9. Bob Morgan

    Bob Morgan UKBF Regular Free Member

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    I think that you will find that it is a 'Daily Mail Crusade!' (Slow News on House Prices, Immigrants, and Paedophiles at the present time!) Primarily, I see it as the 'Hand Grenade in the Corner' - Diverting attention from the leadership contest between Johnson, Gove, Mogg and Javid (Rather like having to choose which limb you would like to have amputated)
     
    Posted: Aug 4, 2018 By: Bob Morgan Member since: Apr 15, 2018
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  10. MBE2017

    MBE2017 UKBF Enthusiast Free Member

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    The constant trickle of accusations is not helping Labour, Corbyns terrible attitude to interviews is not helping, only happy to talk when he wants too.

    I think the biggest problem is Labour is yet again being slowly taken over from another movement, used to be Militant back in the 80’s, today it is Momentum.

    Sad to see such a decent MP as Frank Field, long time Labour MP through and through to the core, having a few activists trying to de select him simply for voting with the Gov on Brexit, since he believes in representing his voters.
     
    Posted: Aug 7, 2018 By: MBE2017 Member since: Feb 16, 2017
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  11. Cobby

    Cobby UKBF Ace Free Member

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    Arguably the worst Opposition leader in living memory. It doesn't really stand out though since he's opposing the worst Prime Minister in living memory. What a time to be alive!


    If he's starting to act as a Delegate rather than an Elected Representative, then it sounds like he might not be up to the job anymore. Just a thought.
     
    Posted: Aug 9, 2018 By: Cobby Member since: Oct 28, 2009
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  12. MBE2017

    MBE2017 UKBF Enthusiast Free Member

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    He voted as per his constituency’s wishes, they voted well in favour of Brexit, so how by representing their wishes is he not up to the job? I would argue he has acted 100% as an elected representative.

    Rare to find an MP who is prepared to put the people who voted for him ahead of party doctrine, not that Labour seems to have any real position on Brexit. Most MP’s have no backbone, Frank Field is universally respected across all parties as far as I can see, shame he is so rare in the country.
     
    Posted: Aug 9, 2018 By: MBE2017 Member since: Feb 16, 2017
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  13. Cobby

    Cobby UKBF Ace Free Member

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    What you describe is a delegate, not an elected representative. You are advocating a form of democracy we do not use.

    His job, as an elected representative, is to consider the interests of his constituents first; Brexit clearly doesn't do that. Ergo he is not doing his job properly.

    It would be nice for Labour to nail down a stance on Brexit though...
     
    Posted: Aug 10, 2018 By: Cobby Member since: Oct 28, 2009
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  14. MBE2017

    MBE2017 UKBF Enthusiast Free Member

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    His constituents voted for Brexit, ergo he decided to support the Gov and represent his constituents wishes, and why Momentum activists are trying to deselect him.

    He is doing his job as an elected representative correctly. Exactly what I described.
     
    Posted: Aug 10, 2018 By: MBE2017 Member since: Feb 16, 2017
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  15. Cobby

    Cobby UKBF Ace Free Member

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    You're still describing a delegate, not a representative.
     
    Posted: Aug 11, 2018 By: Cobby Member since: Oct 28, 2009
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  16. MBE2017

    MBE2017 UKBF Enthusiast Free Member

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    Not in Frank Fields opinion, he felt it important he voted as per his electorates wishes, despite knowing many would criticise him for doing so.

    If one of the longest serving MPs feels that is correctly representing them, I for one will bow to his many years of experience. Your assertion Brexit is not in their interests is simply just your opinion, no deal has been agreed on as yet, so your argument is not necessarily correct.

    Even if it was, Frank Field might feel other reasons than those of economics are worth considering in the decision, your argument is purely a monetary one. To use your own example above, suing for peace with the Nazis would have been the sensible thing to do, one pushed for by many at the time, in the UKs best interests. As it was another decision was reached, thankfully some issues as not seen just in monetary values. Frank Field obviously decided this was such an occasion.
     
    Posted: Aug 11, 2018 By: MBE2017 Member since: Feb 16, 2017
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  17. Cobby

    Cobby UKBF Ace Free Member

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    If, as an Elected Representative in an Representative Democracy, he wishes to act as a Delegate, he can certainly do so. You may even respect him for it, but that doesn't change the fact that he is acting as a Delegate and not, as he should be, an Elected Representative. In which case his constituents have a perfectly valid reason for wanting him deselected.

    Now, arguably, you are right, perhaps he believes that Brexit is in the best interest of his constituents. What then? As you say, Brexit being bad is my opinion. But it's an informed opinion.

    Now, like most people, I only understand Brexit to a point - my expertise is in other areas and I do not have time to devote to analysing law, economics or sociology. But I know when to defer to experts - the people who do understand Brexit - and can critically assess their positions, ideologies and data they put out.

    But here's the kicker: the experts almost universally declare it to be a bad choice for the country. Not just economically but socially. Most ironically, even the government's own experts, predict economic damage for even the softest of Brexit scenarios. With scant exception, the people who understand Brexit agree it is not in the nation's interest. That's the closest to consensus one could hope to achieve on a topic such as Brexit.

    So, does this MP listen to experts where his expertise is lacking? Or, like most of the people in positions of power still trying to engineer Brexit, is he simply following ideology or seeking to benefit from it? Either way, it still sounds like his constituents have a perfectly valid reason for wanting him deselected.

    It's disturbingly ironic that you liken his devotion toward Brexit to our historic stand against fascism, when Brexit, and the campaigning for it, has helped bring fascism and white nationalism back into our society. Of course there are some (especially in the new wave of UKIP leadership) that no doubt see this as one those non-monetary benefits you were talking about. :eek:

    Which brings us neatly back onto topic.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
    Posted: Aug 12, 2018 By: Cobby Member since: Oct 28, 2009
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  18. atmosbob

    atmosbob UKBF Ace Free Member

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    Posted: Aug 12, 2018 By: atmosbob Member since: Oct 26, 2009
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  19. Cobby

    Cobby UKBF Ace Free Member

    3,497 729
    Posted: Aug 12, 2018 By: Cobby Member since: Oct 28, 2009
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  20. MBE2017

    MBE2017 UKBF Enthusiast Free Member

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    You should not believe everything you read in a newspaper, or polls.

    The only poll that mattered was in favour of leaving.
     
    Posted: Aug 12, 2018 By: MBE2017 Member since: Feb 16, 2017
    #20