Make free phonecalls - abolish BT

[Cabal46]

Just wanted to help people save money, as i had BT phone me the other day, trying to sell a £5 per month package to make free phonecalls :|

The thing they fail to mention is that it costs 8p to connect

I have been using 18185.co.uk for 3years and have had no problem with them and it's FREE. You just need a BT landline, but when you make the calls, it takes you out of the BT exchange. 18185's connection fee is only 4-5p.

The important thing about 18185 compared to BT is that you don't have to pay a monthly fee and phoning mobiles or 0870's is much, much cheaper.

Ofcourse, you could use Skype or Vonage, but phoning mobiles, etc is very expensive.

Hope that helps someone in these economic times.

 

[cyberhostpro]

ahh but BT is free to 0845/0870 so if you make lots of calls to these numbers BT is better, I personally dont use BT, i am 100% VOIP

 

[cjd]

Oh, good grief :|

 

[Cabal46]

ahh but BT is free to 0845/0870 so if you make lots of calls to these numbers BT is better, I personally dont use BT, i am 100% VOIP

But i see that as an oxymoron. You have to phone 0845/0870's to feel that your £5 per month is justified. I'd rather not pay for anything a month and pay only a nominal connection fee for cyrstal clarity. If i need to phone 0845/0870, i use saynoto0870.

I have 8MB broadband and bought a Skype USB phone for £30; i sounded like a robot most of the time, so soon ditched any kind of VOIP.

What broadband do you have cyberhostpro?

 

[cyberhostpro]

I have 8MB broadband and bought a Skype USB phone for £30; i sounded like a robot most of the time, so soon ditched any kind of VOIP.

What broadband do you have cyberhostpro?

Skype is rubbish for Voip!

SIPGATE.co.uk is free and very good quality.

I have 20mb Virgin Media Cable broadband at home, and 2mb SDSL in the office.

 

[Cabal46]

Oh, good grief :|

Can you enlighten me please cjd. I had a cursory glance at your VOIP site and the rates seem expensive, compared to free phonecalls. Am i missing something?

 

[Cabal46]

Skype is rubbish for Voip!

SIPGATE.co.uk is free and very good quality.

I have 20mb Virgin Media Cable broadband at home, and 2mb SDSL in the office.

I agree Skype isn't too good; SIPGATE looks interesting, but 20MB fibre optics gives you an advantage.

My broadband has been with Orange since they were Wanadoo, so i probably have loads of cobwebs in my router that needs a revamp.

In fact, a bit off thread, but i've moaned so much to Orange that they keep on giving me 6 months broadband for free when i threaten to leave. I pay £9.99 per month (for 6months to cover 12) for 8MB. Does that compare to your Virgin 20MB?

 

[cjd]

Can you enlighten me please cjd. I had a cursory glance at your VOIP site and the rates seem expensive, compared to free phonecalls. Am i missing something?

I doubt I can but I suppose I have a professional obligation to try - since when did 4-5p connection charge = free?

Did you know that the average business call lasts 55 seconds; that about 5p per minute.

We charge 1p per minute with a minimum charge of 1p. No connection charge.

And btw, lunches aren't free.

 

[cyberhostpro]

I doubt I can but I suppose I have a professional obligation to try - since when did 4-5p connection charge = free?

Did you know that the average business call lasts 55 seconds; that about 5p per minute.

We charge 1p per minute with a minimum charge of 1p. No connection charge.

And btw, lunches aren't free.

Interesting, I may look at you guys at some point for our telemarketing outbound calls.

 

[zone1creative]

I do find it annoying to receive cold calling sales people using voip/skype/tincan

If they want my business it would help if I could understand what they are saying.

 

[cyberhostpro]

I do find it annoying to receive cold calling sales people using voip/skype/tincan

If they want my business it would help if I could understand what they are saying.

A decent VOIP/Connection, you wouldn't know the difference in quality.

 

[cyberhostpro]

I agree Skype isn't too good; SIPGATE looks interesting, but 20MB fibre optics gives you an advantage.

My broadband has been with Orange since they were Wanadoo, so i probably have loads of cobwebs in my router that needs a revamp.

In fact, a bit off thread, but i've moaned so much to Orange that they keep on giving me 6 months broadband for free when i threaten to leave. I pay £9.99 per month (for 6months to cover 12) for 8MB. Does that compare to your Virgin 20MB?

I do that all the time with Virgin. As I dont have TV/Phone with them I pay the normal rate. Its usually £35 month but I get it for £27.99 month by saying I am gonna leave hehe. its a really good connection, but even when it was 1mb/2mb VOIP was always perfect, those days I used www.vonage.co.uk for my landline. Vonage are a excellent provider too.

 

[Cabal46]

I doubt I can but I suppose I have a professional obligation to try - since when did 4-5p connection charge = free?

Did you know that the average business call lasts 55 seconds; that about 5p per minute.

We charge 1p per minute with a minimum charge of 1p. No connection charge.

And btw, lunches aren't free.

Well that's subjective, since i'd have to pay for broadband to use VOIP, so your 1p per min & 1p conn charge comes with caveats, albeit inconsequential since broadband is ubiquitous nowadays.

Also, if i phoned a landline during the day for business using 18185 for 30mins, that would cost me 5p connection and that's it, no hidden fees. With your VOIP, that would cost me 30p + 1p = 31p. Also, your mobile rates are 12p per minute, compared to 18185's which are 6p per min...during the day!

The VOIP biz model is only good for VOIP-2-VOIP, which isn't too prevalent in the UK, because the broadband infrastructure in the UK is soo archaic, compared to Asia, for example which have 100MB fibre optics. We are still using yoghurt pots and a piece of string in comparison, hence the tinny, robot voice, that makes you sound like a cheapskate.

p.s. And yes lunches can be free. Just depends if you're prepared to eat the trash from someone else's bin.

 

[cjd]

Well that's subjective, since i'd have to pay for broadband to use VOIP, so your 1p per min & 1p conn charge comes with caveats, albeit inconsequential since broadband is ubiquitous nowadays.

OK, so we agree that this argument is nul.

Also, if i phoned a landline during the day for business using 18185 for 30mins, that would cost me 5p connection and that's it, no hidden fees. With your VOIP, that would cost me 30p + 1p = 31p.

Correct. You probably also made a call that went to an answering machine and hung up after 2 seconds. That cost you 5p plus, quite probably a minimum charge. You need to look at your entire calling patterns and add it up - not cherry pick the bits that help your argument. Or use the 55 second average.

Also, your mobile rates are 12p per minute, compared to 18185's which are 6p per min...during the day!

Correct. The wholesale price of a mobile call is between 6-14p per minute. I pay what 18185 pays. So if they are charging only 6p it means that they are playing tunes with minimum durations, minimal charges and set-up fees. You need to look at the total cost of a variety of calls to see what tricks they get up to - telcos are marketing companies.

The VOIP biz model is only good for VOIP-2-VOIP, which isn't too prevalent in the UK, because the broadband infrastructure in the UK is soo archaic, compared to Asia, for example which have 100MB fibre optics. We are still using yoghurt pots and a piece of string in comparison, hence the tinny, robot voice, that makes you sound like a cheapskate.

As Voip only needs about 90kbs for a very high quality call (far better than a landline) or just 30 kbs for a mobile quality call (GSM codec) it really doesn't matter that the UK hasn't got fibre to the home.

p.s. And yes lunches can be free. Just depends if you're prepared to eat the trash from someone else's bin.

Exactly

 

[stugster]

so soon ditched any kind of VOIP.

I went to a Tesco once, and ditched all supermarkets.

Come on. You can't be serious? You've taken a sub-standard, below-par, closed-protocol service like Sh1te, err, sorry, Skype... and then written off all REAL Voip services?

 

[stugster]

The VOIP biz model is only good for VOIP-2-VOIP, which isn't too prevalent in the UK, because the broadband infrastructure in the UK is soo archaic,

If you're knocking the UK broadband service, haven't you just completely voided your previous argument that VoIP to VoIP is better? Surely if the broadband is as bad as you say, then VoIP to VoIP would be worse than VoIP to PSTN?

Alas, I feel you haven't the foggiest what you're talking about, and obviously have some sort of pent up aggression towards new and better technology. Perhaps it's cause you've just signed up for a 12 or 18 month tie-in contract with BT and are annoyed you can move VoIP supplier at the drop of a hat?

 

[adam]

VOIP is great and the quality identical to a landline if not better. CJD is absolutley right, I look at my average call times and they are never much.

I have some suppliers and customers who use Skype and I do too but I would never think of making a sales call on it. And isn't it only free if the other person has Skype and sat at their computer?

Also, as a mobile phone user with a good deal, I don't use Voipfone for my mobile calls.

 

[Dawg]

Mr Cabal's sig in his profile is:
"I am here as a singularitarian aesthetic alturistic extropian."

The extropian bit means that he disagrees with the second law of thermodynamics, itself based on entropy.

Whilst not any better or worse than many belief based systems, eugenics and wahabism for instance, post Enlightenment rational "Understanding" will not be a strong suit...

 

[cjd]

I like Singularitarian too, the wiki describes it as 'the Rapture for nerds'.

 

[*Lexxy*]

I do find it annoying to receive cold calling sales people using voip/skype/tincan

If they want my business it would help if I could understand what they are saying.

i had similar sales call recently, he sounded like a dalek in an empty warehouse!

i could barely make out what he was trying to sell & just said thankyou but i wasn't interested.

i did manage to note down their website & had a look-see, just out of curiosity in case i was missing the deal of the century, voip phone services...oh dear!

 

[cjd]

i had similar sales call recently, he sounded like a dalek in an empty warehouse! voip phone services...oh dear!

Any particular reason you think that it was a VoIP call? Call centres sounded crap before anyone used VoIP.

The reason most call centre calls are crap now is because they use £2.50 headsets plugged into £50 computers using free PBXs software based in 3rd world countries on consumer DSL connections.

You can create the same effect with VoIP yourself too; but only if you're a bloody idiot.

Almost all 'ordinary' calls passing through BT's networks already use VoIP because BT is throwing away it's switches and replacing them with routers.

See:
http://www.samknows.com/broadband/21cn_overview.php

 

[zone1creative]

There is only one thing worse than a salesperson calling you via voip and that is an automated call where recorded messages tries to sell you something.

How lazy can a salesperson get. Does anyone actually respond to these type of calls. They are now replacing cheap outsourcing with recorded messages.

I wonder how long the average time is for these calls. Must be 2 seconds

 

[cjd]

I wonder how long the average time is for these calls. Must be 2 seconds

Don't hang up on them, just put the phone aside and wait until you get the warning 'off-hook' tone from the network.

Those calls almost always come from outside the UK - the more time you can make them waste, the more it costs them.

 

[stugster]

Don't hang up on them, just put the phone aside and wait until you get the warning 'off-hook' tone from the network.

Those calls almost always come from outside the UK - the more time you can make them waste, the more it costs them.

Better still... waste their time by asking questions and making it seem like you're interested.

If everyone did this, these illicit telesales companies would disappear overnight.

 

[*Lexxy*]

Any particular reason you think that it was a VoIP call? Call centres sounded crap before anyone used VoIP.

The reason most call centre calls are crap now is because they use £2.50 headsets plugged into £50 computers using free PBXs software based in 3rd world countries on consumer DSL connections.

You can create the same effect with VoIP yourself too; but only if you're a bloody idiot.

Almost all 'ordinary' calls passing through BT's networks already use VoIP because BT is throwing away it's switches and replacing them with routers.

See:
http://www.samknows.com/broadband/21cn_overview.php

purely putting 2 + 2 together, it was a local company selling their phone services so i made the assumption they'd be using their own service.

 

[Cabal46]

Alas, I feel you haven't the foggiest what you're talking about, and obviously have some sort of pent up aggression towards new and better technology. Perhaps it's cause you've just signed up for a 12 or 18 month tie-in contract with BT and are annoyed you can move VoIP supplier at the drop of a hat?

What are you on about? I welcome any new technology but feel that most UK broadband providers are slow to adapt and adopt. Only recently, they have had to tell new customers that their speeds aren't realistic, yet they still advertise 8MB for example.

Even if you lived inside an exchange, you'd never get those speeds. Also, they advertise in Mega Bits instead of the true representation of computers 'Bytes'. There are 8 bits to a byte, so they falsify their intent on how packets of data are downloaded/uploaded because they can advertise a higher number.

In reality, an 8M(bit) is only 1M(byte) speed. Then take into account the fact the 'pipe' is spilt in your street, which becomes clogged at peak times.

 

[Cabal46]

Mr Cabal's sig in his profile is:
"I am here as a singularitarian aesthetic alturistic extropian."

The extropian bit means that he disagrees with the second law of thermodynamics, itself based on entropy.

Eh??!!

Extropy:
The prediction that human intelligence and technology will enable life to expand in an orderly way throughout the entire universe

Entropy:
A measure of the disorder of any system, or of the unavailability of its heat energy for work. One way of stating the second law of thermodynamics — the principle that heat will not flow from a cold to a hot object spontaneously — is to say that the entropy of an isolated system can, at best, remain the same and will increase for most systems. Thus, the overall disorder of an isolated system must increase.

Perhaps you confused or misread the letter x. The two are distinct and separate. Extropy relates to human evolution using machine interfaces towards a Singularitarian goal. Entropy relates to closed system heat exchange.

 

[cmcp]

Is there something I'm missing here about your masterplan to ablolish BT?

I have been using 18185.co.uk for 3years and have had no problem with them and it's FREE. You just need a BT landline, but when you make the calls, it takes you out of the BT exchange. 18185's connection fee is only 4-5p.

You show them.

 

[Cabal46]

Is there something I'm missing here about your masterplan to ablolish BT?

You show them.

You're right cmcp, you need BT to use broadband, Sky and 18185, etc.

I should have phrased the thread title as - 'Alternatives to BT phone packages'. But they have the monopoly on the exchange infrastructure, so you are compelled to use BT for 3rd party products. There are better deals out there for phone packages though, which is the point i was trying to put across to existing BT customers.

Perhaps i was too hasty to dismiss VOIP, but it really depends on call length to make them viable, as pointed out by cjd. I tried Skype many moons ago, and perhaps the technology has improved since then.

Sorry for the confusion and thanks for pointing out my mistake.

 

[stugster]

In reality, an 8M(bit) is only 1M(byte) speed. Then take into account the fact the 'pipe' is spilt in your street, which becomes clogged at peak times.

Thanks for confirming my previous statement

 

[Cabal46]

Thanks for confirming my previous statement

I presume you mean your snide remark:

Alas, I feel you haven't the foggiest what you're talking about, and obviously have some sort of pent up aggression towards new and better technology.

Perhaps this video will empower you with knowledge you are not aware of.

Instead of vilifying my every comment stugster, can you corroborate your thought process please, thanks in advance.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Perhaps this video will empower you with knowledge you are not aware of.

Good heavens!

8 bits = 1 byte

I never knew that.

 

[adam]

that was one boring stupid video. The guys can't even type properly while on video!

 

[Cabal46]

that was one boring stupid video. The guys can't even type properly while on video!

[Sigh] Tough crowd

 

[cjd]

Perhaps i was too hasty to dismiss VOIP,

I think so.

but it really depends on call length to make them viable, as pointed out by cjd.

No it really doesn't.

Unless you have exceptionally high call volumes, call charges are pretty much irrelevant. Even BT's normal call charges are cheap in absolute terms. Call prices have fallen through the floor in the last 20 years to the point were they are only a small part of the telco bill, and actually so small that changing your provider inorder to shave 10% (or even 50-75%) or so is pointless.

Most of your costs are in the fixed rental charges and service add-ons.

VoIP isn't about saving £20 per month on your calls - there's a thousand crappy little telco re-sellers doing that - it about FREE calls and services that were impossible or stupidly expensive before it, plus cheap calls (as an afterthought).

I tried Skype many moons ago, and perhaps the technology has improved since then.

Skype is a special case of VoIP - it's a private peer to peer technogy that is NOT how real VoIP works and is NOT representative of the technology.

It was desigend for students to make free calls to each other by shouting into their PCs - it's crap but it didn't matter because its target market didn't/doesn't care.

Managed VoIP is quite diferent.

Sorry for the confusion and thanks for pointing out my mistake.

You're very welcome ;-)

 

[Cabal46]

Skype is a special case of VoIP - it's a private peer to peer technogy that is NOT how real VoIP works and is NOT representative of the technology.

It was designed for students to make free calls to each other by shouting into their PCs - it's crap but it didn't matter because its target market didn't/doesn't care.

Thanks cjd, you've done a great job in swaying my opinion back to VoIP

I guess i thought Skype was a benchmark for VoIP, but i tried it when it was embryonic-ish and so probably didn't get the best customer experience.

I will definitely start researching VoIP again and i'll check out your site to work out my pricing, except this time with more haste & less speed

Txs again cjd, good job at promotion.

 

[stugster]

I guess i thought Skype was a benchmark for VoIP, but i tried it when it was embryonic-ish and so probably didn't get the best customer experience.

Ah, thank you for finally concluding that in fact you do not know what you're talking about.

I will definitely start researching VoIP again

I do assume you're using the term "research" extremely loosely here. Had you even researched VoIP at the outset at all, you'd know that Skype is very different.

 

[stugster]

Even if you lived inside an exchange, you'd never get those speeds. Also, they advertise in Mega Bits instead of the true representation of computers 'Bytes'. There are 8 bits to a byte, so they falsify their intent on how packets of data are downloaded/uploaded because they can advertise a higher number.

In reality, an 8M(bit) is only 1M(byte) speed. Then take into account the fact the 'pipe' is spilt in your street, which becomes clogged at peak times.

The irony here, is that the video you showed me for enlightenment clearly shows that there isn't a contention ratio for ADSL (as you explain it above)

In regards to your statement of calling "bytes" a true representation of "computers", this is a load of rubbish. Maybe because you're used to hearing Bytes mentioned all the time, you're not used to a new word coming in, and hence you're getting a bit confused and resort to YouTube videos by 12 year olds for your understanding.

When discussing data flow, you'll find that bandwidth is always talked about as bits. This is the standard data rate unit in which the IT industry works to. It is also a TRUE representation of how the data flows (not in Bytes).

I do see where you're trying to come from in your "you'll never get those speeds" argument. But it's wrong.

I still wake up in cold sweats in the middle of the night annoyed that the ASA haven't forced broadband advertisers to explain clearly the OSI model and how a datagram is actually formed, why there might be packet loss and why the first 128 bits of a packet aren't actually the data you're trying to download.

 

[TimmoB]

some interesting info here, but can you tell me the best way to use call diversion.

If i'm out of the office i divert the calls to my mobile, that cost me £15.00 last month. Anyone got any ideas, (i hate given my hard earned cash to the most useless company on the planet BT).

Timmo.

 

[stugster]

Timmo,

£15 a month for the privilege of having your phone diverted to your mobile isn't that bad to be honest, but there are other alternatives. It depends on where you are. If you're in an area that has WiFi you could make use of a VoIP application on your phone, (and assuming your phone supports wireless internet) you should be able to make your phone pick up the calls over the airways.

Another alternative that might be an option is the same idea, but running the VoIP software over the 3G network if you have an unlimited Internet plan (although be careful here... this is an other issue I wake up in sweats about. The ASA lets these rotten toe rags advertise their Internet as Unlimited...when it's not).

How many of those calls are necessary? Perhaps you could manage the callers needs better and reduce those call costs?