Why do we give Britain such a good kicking all the time?

Polish mothers have more children once they come to Britain: Birth rate among migrants is two third higher here than in their homeland
  • Total fertility rate - average number of children they can expect to have - for Romanian women in England and Wales is 2.93
  • Among women in Romania it is only 1.25, and 1.84 for UK-born mothers
  • One in four babies is born to mothers born overseas


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...support-children-acts-draw.html#ixzz34BR1FgPY
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my theory for the above is this.
if you live in poverty in a country and have nothing ,then come here and have something ,even if that something is small to us ie benefits or minimum wage..living on that is like going from minimum wage to 30k a year. now this looks like ive contradicted myself when i said poverty spurs birth rate.this is not the case in this scenario. in time those coming here will eventually climatise and i guess then you will get your 0% when there children grow up here and work and not want lots of children.
plus those countries have high birth rates before even coming here. so it takes a while to climatise and change habits. its normal
 
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E

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I never said people were having 4 or 5 babies - try reading what I'm putting first.

In the UK the average number of babies women have is creeping up to 2. As indicated by your chart. Using the basic rules of averages that means for every woman who has 0 there is basically one who has 4. For every woman who has 1 child there is one with 3 children.

On the Luxembourg / Italy thing.

Luxembourg's GDP per capita is $53,780 compared to our $36,700. From that I would guess the job prospects are far better than ours and better paid. Creating a bigger and more obtainable difference between living on welfare than living on a salary. Luxembourg also has far tighter controls on the welfare than we do

Italy has a heavily regulated rental market. Rents are capped and are only allowed to increase at a rate below inflation. This has basically forced a lot of renters to sell so houses to rent are a lot harder to come by. i.e. you will not find anywhere near as easy as it is in the UK to rent a house.

Please dont quote the Daily Mail, it just wastes everyone's time. Lets start with this BS paragraph

The women may have been playing ‘catch-up’ after delaying pregnancy ahead of emigrating, the Office for National Statistics said. But higher income – whether in wages or benefits – and better schools and living conditions in Britain, may also have encouraged the extra births, the agency added.

No one in the agency never said anything of the kind. They don't pass judgement on the data they just produce it. The ONS is an impartial body who does not comment on their data.

The next part is after all that reporting they go to great lengths to not reveal the source of the report (not unusual with the Daily Mail when they are being economical with the truth). I found the report and it does not contain data for Romania.

As for the Polish figures this is directly from the ONS report

Total fertility rates for women born in individual countries such as Poland are not currently available

They do say that 25.1% of births were to mothers born outside the UK. That does not distinguish between those who have a UK passport and are now British and those that are immigrants just working here. If we are generous and ignore that split that still makes births by British mothers 2.25 times the EU average.
 
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so you agree wealthy countries have less babies. it doesnt matter about tighter controls on welfare in luxembourg. welfare is not a big issue there because as you say they get paid well.
italy situation . what has housing got to do with babies? people are not living on the streets and are still capable of making babies. they are different people and many are catholics. being religious is a big factor. you mentioned religion earlier. being religious and not having the pill does not mean having more babies. what it means is you dont have many babies out of wedlock as you do here.this means less babies overall. obvious, is it not?
when i asked you to show me numbers of those having babies and bleeding us all of our tax money. you only focused on the number of babies and still have not shown me the numbers of those who have not worked for 4 years and how many babies come with them.
the reason for this is...............because its to small a number and would kill your arguement
 
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London's population has surged by 104,000, with high birth and immigration rates
from here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23618487

so im guessing the bbc and others quoting ONS are full of bull as well.

ive got say mr. i dont need data. i dont need your data or the data ive given you. its obvious why births have risen. its also very obvious that you are completely wrong when saying its because of babies making robots on benefits just to get a house.if i gave you 2000 baby making robots that go out of there way just to get pregnant, just to get a house and not work, per county/region in the uk that would be around 266,000 you are looking at about 2% of the uk and i think im being way generous giving you that .i,d be surprised if its 0.2
you sound like everything your thread is asking. you claim to be positive , level headed and logical but right at this moment im failing to see it. maybe you should employee my services.

so
i ask you this question
why do you feel the need to give the people of britain a good kicking ? :p :cool:
 
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Swisaw

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easy?
i dont believe a word your saying now.
if its easy why dont you do it?
you cant do it because its not easy for everyone. its easier for YOU to work . you work not because its hard or because you want to do your bit for the bloke next door. you work because you cant not work or go without money cars and all the other things YOU want and quite possibly you enjoy work..please dont tell me you had nothing before or this or that. the point is you cant do it now.

He was very lucky. He was born into a middle class family working in aviation industry. Unlike the majority of the babies born into lower class families, working hard to make ends meet, he was conditioned culturally to do as good as his cultural environment, his family. The rest of the babies grown up to follow their cultural environment to work hard without any incentive to make ends meet.
 
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Swisaw

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Unfortunately all the education in the world can not create intelligence,thats down to pure chance.

It is not about intelligence. It is about cultural conditioning. I heard Einstein, who is considered a symbol of intelligence, was slightly autistic. Family upbringing builds the foundation for the future of a baby. The child of the farmer becomes a farmer and the child of Einstein becomes a scientist. Both have the same intelligent capacity.

IQ doesn't prove any thing, it is hocus pocus. Based on evolutionary developments, each generation must be more intelligent than the last. This is a rule can b e broken
 
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Swisaw

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Polish mothers have more children once they come to Britain: Birth rate among migrants is two third higher here than in their homeland
  • Total fertility rate - average number of children they can expect to have - for Romanian women in England and Wales is 2.93
  • Among women in Romania it is only 1.25, and 1.84 for UK-born mothers
  • One in four babies is born to mothers born overseas

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...support-children-acts-draw.html#ixzz34BR1FgPY
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

How many Polish mothers we have? millions!!! certainly not. Hundreds!!! yes. So their cost of welfare is negligible.
 
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E

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With Luxembourg there is a bigger divide between living on benefits and living on a salary. Its not the wealth, its the divide between welfare and salary that makes the difference. Far bigger than it is here in the UK. Finding and getting those jobs is obtainable and a far better choice for the individual. They are going to make more effort in to limiting their choices by having kids.

With Italy people are going to take more steps not to have kids if they can not find somewhere to live. A couple are far less likely to want to have kids if they are having to (a) live with their parents due to the lack of properties or (b) live in accommodation that is too small to have kids in. That is an incentive to wait until you can get properly housed. Here in the UK you can pick up a local paper in the morning and be signing the rental agreement on a 3 bedroom house in the afternoon.

BTW What the hell has the pill got to do with wedlock? Married people dont use family planning?

The reason for not putting up numbers of people who have not worked for 4 years and are having babies is because it does not exist. Just because you demand these specific numbers it does not mean they can be pulled out of the air. I only deal in real numbers from places like the ONS.

So once again I ask you why do you think the population growth has exploded over the last 20 years? I've seen no logical explanation from you other than we are having more babies. Population stats simply don't change like that without a cause.

I'm not giving Britain a good kicking, I'm stating numbers and facts. The original point of this thread was about people giving Britain a kicking on hearsay. People saying industries x, y and z are dead and don't exist any more despite the facts showing the complete opposite. When they post these stories it is simply based on hearsay and Daily Mail reports.

This does not stop their being faults in the UK (like the population boom and immigration) my original point is that it is not a case of everything in the UK being broken.
 
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In the ONS survey (that the Daily Mail report fudged in to a non - existent story) the figure was 25% of mothers born outside the UK. The figure did not split out how many of those were now full on British (i.e. had full citizenship, passport etc) and how many were just people working in the UK.

The 95,000 over 5 years is about right (the ONS report only highlights 3 years of data on that at around 19,000 per year).
 
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I tend to stick with the most official stats as possible (ONS, Eurostat etc) as they are the ones that have direct access to the data and the ability to gather the data. These draw on data from places like the census so to me they would be the most accurate.

I think a lot of conflict comes in when reporters try to spin up a story that isn't there. The Daily Mail's reporting techniques is a prime example of this*. Those details end in the mix and it all gets conflicting.

My general rules of thumb when reading these things is (1) It must detail the source of data (2) The source of data has to be reputable (3) Unquantifiable surveys are out (4) opinions are out unless quantified in some way.

*This is 100% personal opinion - I believe the Daily Mail is leading our press down the path of click baiting (getting as many people to click on a story as possible to increase their marketing revenue). They produce stories designed to create rage and frustration (regardless of the truth) so you will click on them. It is greatly skewing the way we look at ourselves and our neighbours. That to me is far more of a problem in the press than the hacking scandal was.
 
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With Luxembourg there is a bigger divide between living on benefits and living on a salary. Its not the wealth, its the divide between welfare and salary that makes the difference. Far bigger than it is here in the UK. Finding and getting those jobs is obtainable and a far better choice for the individual. They are going to make more effort in to limiting their choices by having kids.

With Italy people are going to take more steps not to have kids if they can not find somewhere to live. A couple are far less likely to want to have kids if they are having to (a) live with their parents due to the lack of properties or (b) live in accommodation that is too small to have kids in. That is an incentive to wait until you can get properly housed. Here in the UK you can pick up a local paper in the morning and be signing the rental agreement on a 3 bedroom house in the afternoon.

BTW What the hell has the pill got to do with wedlock? Married people dont use family planning?

The reason for not putting up numbers of people who have not worked for 4 years and are having babies is because it does not exist. Just because you demand these specific numbers it does not mean they can be pulled out of the air. I only deal in real numbers from places like the ONS.

So once again I ask you why do you think the population growth has exploded over the last 20 years? I've seen no logical explanation from you other than we are having more babies. Population stats simply don't change like that without a cause.

I'm not giving Britain a good kicking, I'm stating numbers and facts. The original point of this thread was about people giving Britain a kicking on hearsay. People saying industries x, y and z are dead and don't exist any more despite the facts showing the complete opposite. When they post these stories it is simply based on hearsay and Daily Mail reports.

This does not stop their being faults in the UK (like the population boom and immigration) my original point is that it is not a case of everything in the UK being broken.

luxembourg. so you agree wealth/having money means less children.? as i said when you have something you dont want to lose it .

italy. your reason for italy is just an opinion . just as me saying being a catholic country is imo something to do with less children being born there.

you are giving certain people in britain a kicking by accusing them for the GDP PER PERSON ,bleeding benefits and making babies JUST to get a house. i know some people do it but im not silly enough to think that the small amount that do are affecting everything you say they are.

ive told you what i think is the reason for high birth rates .you seem to pass it by . so ill tell you again
its everything. there is no 1 thing. its not just polish, asians , single house grabbing moms, poverty, lack of good paying jobs,... so on and so on. its all of those things and many more.

i dont see why you exclude those that live here and differ them from those just working here. why dont you find some stat that tells you over the last 20 years the amount of babies being born from those coming here to live with citizenship, passports and those coming just to work. they all have to be counted. to not count is fudging numbers to point blame at the people you say are to blame.
this is a subject that so far not you or anyone can come up with real numbers.

i would also guess that unlike the old days abortion is not an option for many. being as single mom is to most of us not a devil thing to be. there a choices here .better choices . its a good thing
 
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In the late 1940s, Italy was rebuilding itself from the destruction of World War II. With a 1947 peace treaty that reestablished its borders and a new constitution in 1948, Italy began to affirm its identity with the West, joining the North Atlantic Treaty Organization in 1949, the United Nations in 1955, and the European Economic Community (precursor to the European Union) in 1958.

Social change was also moving forward. Workers began demanding higher wages and better social services. And they were sorely needed: one out of four people lived in poverty, and half of the poor had families of five children or more. More than 300,000 families lived in cellars, caves, or shacks. The population was rapidly expanding, reaching 45 million after the war.

those who are poor have more babies . this trend takes a while to stop. if you take the poor and offer more you will still get more babies but it will over time change. until you taste a "better" life things rarely change. if things in italy are how you say they are now and they continue the trend for some time.then id like to see the birth rates in 30 years time and compare to now
 
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luxembourg. so you agree wealth/having money means less children.? as i said when you have something you dont want to lose it .

No I'm not saying that about Luxembourg at all, it is the complete opposite in some ways. The point is people on benefits in Luxembourg, especially the young, can see there is potentially a well paying job out there for them. They are not rich, they are still on benefits at this point. So they are not going to risk that future potential by risking having kids. They get a job and have kids. They then get on the merry go around of mortgage payments, bills etc and have the number of kids they can afford.

Here in the UK it is a different situation for the young employed. They dont see a potentially well paying on the job on the horizon so having kids is not seen anywhere as near financially risky. This translates in to less care about contraception, which in turn means more kids. Those having babies to get houses are just a small sub set of this much larger group.

italy. your reason for italy is just an opinion . just as me saying being a catholic country is imo something to do with less children being born there.

Why would a deeply catholic country have less kids? I would expect it to be the complete opposite and have large families. Christianity and family planning are not usually a good mix - the Vatican is very against contraception. So I have no idea why you think family sizes would go down. Ireland is also a very Christian country and is one of the handful of countries in the EU that has a higher birth rate than ours.

Your second post only goes to prove that being a Christian country had zero effect on the birth rate during and after the war. Again we are not comparing like with like there as there were lots of other reasons for for having babies about.

First of all there was the WW2 baby boom. After WW2 most countries in the western world saw a big baby boom that lasted for several years. People simply didnt risk bringing babies in to the world during the war, when the war was over people basically went for it. The need/want for having babies when your body clock is ticking simply takes over the economic restrictions. The same happened here in the UK, the US and many other Western countries.

So what are these many other things?

BTW - The split between those who have full citizenship and those that don't is irrelevant in the way I broke the numbers down as I included both in my calculations. 25% of the births were by mothers who were born abroad. If I could separate the two it would only serve to show that the number of births by British parents was even higher.

The fact that an exploding population drags down GDP per capita is a fact not accusation. The formula is simple. Its the GDP divided by the population. The bigger the population the less GDP there is to go around.

Because our birth rate and our immigration are out of control, that is the problem we are left with. The trend is to blame nothing but immigrants but the truth is there are elements of the British population at fault as well.
 
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Knowledge and intelligence are two separate things. In our lifetimes I think its possible to see the amount of knowledge can hold increase due to better education methods etc.

Although intelligence generally increases over time I really dont think it is something we can observe in a lifetime, it is far slower than that. All we will can observe is localised peaks and troughs based on tests that are really subjective in the first place.
 
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. The trend is to blame nothing but immigrants but the truth is there are elements of the British population at fault as well.

im not trendy which is why i have said there are many elements as to why the population has grown. i just jumped on you blaming those having babies to get houses. you could quite easily have said many things are to blame and named more than 1.or none. it gave an impression that it was trendy for you to blame them.the last 2 pages or more of replies from me was to get you to say what you have above.
thanks :p
 
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As I said hmm actually going out to physically have babies to get a house is a small sub set of a much larger group who are on a cycle of not really having to get a job because having a kid in the house solves the most urgent of lifes problems (money, roof etc) for them. I suspect if I found myself in that situation for a year or so I would end up with the same mentality - why go out and work for £15k when the government gives me £15k to stay at home.

Enjoyed the debate. BTW, IMHO, in any debate, once we get away from provable numbers and evidence it is all theory. Theories are put up to be either disproved or proved, which is a very two way street.

Cheers
 
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As I said hmm actually going out to physically have babies to get a house is a small sub set of a much larger group who are on a cycle of not really having to get a job because having a kid in the house solves the most urgent of lifes problems (money, roof etc) for them. I suspect if I found myself in that situation for a year or so I would end up with the same mentality - why go out and work for £15k when the government gives me £15k to stay at home.



Cheers
i couldnt say if you would or wouldnt. because not everyone does. there are far more people working for 15k or less than those that choose not to work at all .we just like pointing fingers,listening to others goading us to point those finger.. so who is to blame ? everyone is to blame for it all
 
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As I have said from the start the benefits situation was basically created (out of good intentions) by the government but could now probably be classed as a hindrance when it comes to getting people back to work. The government is at fault for not rectifying and a lot of those that are in the cycle have to take their share of the fault for not trying to get off that cycle. (As I said if I was in that situation for a year or so I could see myself falling in to that mentality as well, and if that ever did happen I would have to take my share of the rap as well).

It is also a bit of a chicken and egg thing as well. Employers find it hard to find people to fill the low end jobs so immigrants swoop in and pick them up. This in turn makes it more difficult for those willing to accept low wages to find an opening. It also makes it difficult for those less active in finding a job to work there way up from the bottom.

Immigration and population growth are both massive problems for the economy and I have to wonder how far the country can go without acting.
 
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ive told you what i think is the reason for high birth rates .you seem to pass it by . so ill tell you again
its everything. there is no 1 thing. its not just polish, asians , single house grabbing moms, poverty, lack of good paying jobs,... so on and so on. its all of those things and many more.


The reasons for high birth rates in the UK are largely, second only to people who have kids because they want them, about getting a free house and benefits.

The second most popular name or names in the UK are variations of mohammed. There were about half a million polish people living in the uk not that long ago.

I've been all over my city, the posh parts, the middle of the road parts and the piss poor parts.

Where do i find the most muslims and the most polish / eastern europeans? Not in the posh parts, some in the middle of the road parts but most in the piss poor parts. But hey, at least they have free or discounted housing.
 
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Swisaw

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Its interesting that all the great inventions happened between 1800 and 1965 since then very little of importance.

http://www.livescience.com/24713-humans-losing-intelligence.html

if you are a bit technical-minded, you will see all the inventions of 1800-1965, apart from electricity, were lousy inventions. It was some thing there for any one with a bit of technically minded to get it. Recent hi tech inventions on all fields needed a brains a lot superior to the time of 1800-1965.
 
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fisicx

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Swisaw

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Whatever this machine was, it was some thing, which couldn't do anything more than what a bunch of a tarot cards could do. :p

This piece of junk was recovered on 1900-1901.So it couldn't have contributed to the evolution of computer concept. From what I know the first computer concept was developed on 18th century in this country and the inventor got £1000.00 grant from UK government but couldn't make a model. But later a model was made not long ago. I think it is now in scientific museum.
 
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You are referring to Babbage's Difference Engine in the Science Museum.

Far from the first computer. If you think of a computer as "data in, data out" the Sextant could be considered a computer and that has been around centuries. There are also the automated mills that ran of punch cards.

If you think of a computer as something that could be programmed Babbage was inspired by the works of Pascal and a few others.

The field of computing is a great example of one generation building on the knowledge of the previous generation. This does not mean we are seeing leaps in IQ.

People like Pascal, Babbage and many other geniuses may have had above average IQ's, but that happens in all generations
 
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fisicx

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Whatever this machine was, it was some thing, which couldn't do anything more than what a bunch of a tarot cards could do. :p.
You are talkiing twaddle (again). You suggested that there was insuffiecint intellingence to invent modern-technology. That is incorrect. What these wasn't were the tools available to mordern man. The brains were there long before the technology. Consider that quantum theory (required for all microprocessors) was developed long before the microprocessor was even a consideration.
 
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