Ignorant Students

[Dawg]

I'm still trying to find a credible source of unbiased and balanced comments on this subject.
Any thoughts?

It's next to the thingy that turns lead into gold, behind the sword in the stone and can be seen clearly from any passing flying pig.

 

[LicensedToTrade]

Ultimately the increase in fees will have little or no effect on the majority of students who graduate. As it stands when students start earning over the threshold of 15/16k they start paying in the region of around £20-30 per month, not the kind of sum that will see you on beans and toast for the rest of your life. As the threshold is going up to 21k it is actually an even better deal. So it doesn't matter if student fees are £3k/year, £9k/year or £10million/year, they will be paying the same amount each month. This loan expires after a fixed number of years meaning that those who are doing well in their careers and earning a decent salary will have paid off their loan in this time, those who haven't done so well will have their outstanding payments erased.

 

[Dawg]

I saw figures suggesting that 50% of students will repay nothing, 22% will repay less than they are now, and the rest will repay on a sliding scale.
I wonder what the deadweight costs of the scheme are? What are the admin costs, the collection costs? Will it be worth all the malarky?

 

[Jeff FV]

I was wondering ...

If I understand it correctly, you are given a loan to pay for your fees and also a loan for living expenses and you only start paying these loans back once you start to earn £21k or more.

So, I was thinking, most pensioners pensions will be less than £21K pa, so why not become a student, enjoy 3 years learning and you'll get a maintenance loan and you'll never have to pay back a penny.

There must be a flaw in my plan, surely?!

Jeff

 

[Cornish Steve]

I'm still trying to find a credible source of unbiased and balanced comments on this subject.
Any thoughts?

Just read my posts.

 

[Cornish Steve]

There was an article on the local news this morning about university education. The current unemployment rate in the US is outrageously high - 9.8% - and still rising. The unemployment rate among those with a university degree is also rising, but it currently stands at 5.2%. Now, I'm sure that the rate among recent graduates is far more than that but, in the longer view, this is another reason to invest in a university education.

 

I saw figures suggesting that 50% of students will repay nothing, 22% will repay less than they are now, and the rest will repay on a sliding scale.
I wonder what the deadweight costs of the scheme are? What are the admin costs, the collection costs? Will it be worth all the malarky?

the ifs report says that the new system is a but over complicated in that respect,im sure it said that if you were earning £48 grand a year it would take 30 years to pay it back LOL

 

[papverpoppies]

I wonder how many people on here have a degree, but are running their own company and making a success of it.

What is this thing with getting a degree, and why is it all important?

There was a time if you went to Uni it was considered a 'big deal', these days, unless maybe Oxford or Cambridge, its not seen as that special, many people seem to view it, as (three years slumming around) it has become that devalued, which is a shame - and the degree at the end of it, worthless in many cases.

I think there should be fees, especially if the intention is to spend 3 years doing as little as possible to get the said worthless degree - graduate and then become one of the great unemployed.

Education for everyone of course, but what do you do with them all, when they leave the schools, colleges and universities - no one seems to have an answer to that question.

Poppy xx

 

i dont think people go to uni to do nothing for 3 years and graduate to become unemployed,whilst I think phoney blair totally wrong to give the 50% target rate its unfair to call degrees worthless,it may well be a personal journey,like anything in life what you get at the end is up too you ,I think lots of people end up doing something different at the end of it but thats not to say its been worthless .
I left school with profound dyslexia no qualifications aged 15 and worked for myself from day one, until I was 29 .
after an accident at work I enrolled at uni as a mature student and did a full time BA honours and part time masters degree, and would not be doing what I do now, without that time to expand and develop both personally and professionally i dont think I would have done this with the prospect of a huge debt at the end of it

 

[papverpoppies]

i dont think people go to uni to do nothing for 3 years and graduate to become unemployed,whilst I think phoney blair totally wrong to give the 50% target rate its unfair to call degrees worthless,it may be a personal journey what you get at the end is up too you ,i think lots of people end up doing something different at the end of it but thats not to say its been worthless .
I left school with no qualifications at 15 and worked for myself from day one, until I was 29 .
I enroled as a mature student and did a full time BA honours and part time masters degree, and would not be doing what I do now without that time to expand and develop

I am a great believer in obtaining qualifications in later life, because I think you know what you want more the older you are.

I did like you, left school at 15 and then went back into further education later on in life (still learning) but, because I want to, not because it is expected of me.......I wonder how many students end up going to Uni because of family pressure.

My own view is that too many youngsters go to Uni, but then once upon a time we had other vocations for them to enlist in, apprenticeships took on an awful lot of school leavers, how many of them do you see being offered today.

Poppy xx

 

When I first graduated I was teaching at an fe collage part time whilst my business was growing, I always felt that the students were put under a lot of pressure to go on on to uni this was after blairs 50% target,a good few were just not ready and did not know what to do at the weekend, let alown at university or in ten years time.

 

[LicensedToTrade]

i dont think I would have done this with the prospect of a huge debt at the end of it

As I have already said, there is no 'huge debt' to worry about. Paying back a student loan is akin to those situations where benefits fraudsters get caught and ordered to pay back £200,000 but only make them pay back a fiver each week. Student debt might sound like a lot, but anyone who manages to pay it all off before it expires is likely to be earning a small fortune.

 

[Gillie]

I wonder how many people on here have a degree, but are running their own company and making a success of it.

What is this thing with getting a degree, and why is it all important?

There was a time if you went to Uni it was considered a 'big deal', these days, unless maybe Oxford or Cambridge, its not seen as that special, many people seem to view it, as (three years slumming around) it has become that devalued, which is a shame - and the degree at the end of it, worthless in many cases.

I think there should be fees, especially if the intention is to spend 3 years doing as little as possible to get the said worthless degree - graduate and then become one of the great unemployed.

Education for everyone of course, but what do you do with them all, when they leave the schools, colleges and universities - no one seems to have an answer to that question.

Poppy xx

Yes I have and yes I do thanks Poppy!

Around this area ie my brats and their school mates etc, all consider it a big deal - as they sit and go through the top univerisities and will apply for them if they do their course. So yes, still important to those I know.

So you think there should be fees for those who don't want to learn and just treat it as a good time then Poppy? Who defines then who has a good time and who wastes it? Who defines who pays and who doesn't?

And my eldest is leaving in June of next year, and has two job offers on the table at present, both related to her degree and both in that particular field. See, some Unis, ie those that are rated some of the best in the country, do actually, behind the scenes, start the process and help their students to find a job!

As I have already said, there is no 'huge debt' to worry about. Paying back a student loan is akin to those situations where benefits fraudsters get caught and ordered to pay back £200,000 but only make them pay back a fiver each week. Student debt might sound like a lot, but anyone who manages to pay it all off before it expires is likely to be earning a small fortune.

Students under the old system earning anything over £15k had to pay back a minimum of 9% of earnings over that amount, and had that debt hanging over them to the age of 65 unless they became ill or died, but that debt is also not included in any bankruptcy hearings or IVA's and is not allowed to be written off as such.

The new system, I am still learning about.

What is interesting to me, is how they are going to define which system which student works under, as the new system comes in to effect for those student just having started a 4 year course, but not those doing a 3 year course!

 

[Esk247]

As I have already said, there is no 'huge debt' to worry about. Paying back a student loan is akin to those situations where benefits fraudsters get caught and ordered to pay back £200,000 but only make them pay back a fiver each week. Student debt might sound like a lot, but anyone who manages to pay it all off before it expires is likely to be earning a small fortune.

but it's still classed as a debt. e.g. it surely affects credit rating for a mortgage? surely the banks ask 'do you still owe payments on any student loans?' and if you say 'yip' this means you get a black mark against your name.

 

[papverpoppies]

Yes I have and yes I do thanks Poppy!

Around this area ie my brats and their school mates etc, all consider it a big deal - as they sit and go through the top univerisities and will apply for them if they do their course. So yes, still important to those I know.

So you think there should be fees for those who don't want to learn and just treat it as a good time then Poppy? Who defines then who has a good time and who wastes it? Who defines who pays and who doesn't?

And my eldest is leaving in June of next year, and has two job offers on the table at present, both related to her degree and both in that particular field. See, some Unis, ie those that are rated some of the best in the country, do actually, behind the scenes, start the process and help their students to find a job!



Students under the old system earning anything over £15k had to pay back a minimum of 9% of earnings over that amount, and had that debt hanging over them to the age of 65 unless they became ill or died, but that debt is also not included in any bankruptcy hearings or IVA's and is not allowed to be written off as such.

The new system, I am still learning about.

What is interesting to me, is how they are going to define which system which student works under, as the new system comes in to effect for those student just having started a 4 year course, but not those doing a 3 year course!

That your brats, as you call them, and their mates (think a degree is a big thing) and you yourself have a degree is great.
My post was not knocking the people who have, (if you read it correctly) but there are an awful lot of students who do not gain anything from going to Uni accept a debt.

As for the funding, I do not think it right that the Country should cover those costs, why should people with either no children, or kids not going into higher education pick up the tab.

As to how those costs are covered, I have no idea.

I hope your kids do well - I have nothing against further education, just dont expect the state to fund it all.

Poppy xx

 

[Gillie]

That your brats, as you call them, and their mates (think a degree is a big thing) and you yourself have a degree is great.
My post was not knocking the people who have, (if you read it correctly) but there are an awful lot of students who do not gain anything from going to Uni accept a debt.

As for the funding, I do not think it right that the Country should cover those costs, why should people with either no children, or kids not going into higher education pick up the tab.

As to how those costs are covered, I have no idea.

I hope your kids do well - I have nothing against further education, just dont expect the state to fund it all.

Poppy xx

Bu taking your statement further then - I dont use public transport, I don't use the refuse collections, so can I claim back that on my taxes then??

We all pay taxes to fund everything Poppy, we can't pick and choose just because we do or dont have kids that might or might not take up further education.

And dont forget that Uni is important for certain vital professions - so for those who wish to become a doctor, they have to pay over the odds do they??

 

[Esk247]

Thats the problem with the Libertarian movement. They only want to fund what they need, but the problem with that is, you have to live the Libertarian way, either in a tent stinking of badgers or a land owner with a range rover sport on the drive and pheasants in the pantry.

The tent person is happy to live off the land and speak in grunts
The land owner has enough money to pay for an education

Smells a bit like the 14th century to me.

 

[papverpoppies]

Bu taking your statement further then - I dont use public transport, I don't use the refuse collections, so can I claim back that on my taxes then??

We all pay taxes to fund everything Poppy, we can't pick and choose just because we do or dont have kids that might or might not take up further education.

And dont forget that Uni is important for certain vital professions - so for those who wish to become a doctor, they have to pay over the odds do they??

True, about taxes, and not being able to choose, but we are Country that is broke, and those services are fast drying up.

Private pensions, because the state pension is running out.
Private health care, because the NHS service is on its knees in some areas.
To be honest I am not sure what we pay our taxes for in some cases.
The schools (in my area anyway) are sharing books 1 between 3 kids, and rationing paper...to name but a few!
The loss of full time manned fire stations in areas, relying on retained fire fighters, I do not think people fully know the full extent of how we are robbing Peter to pay Paul.

I know it is unfair to expect parents to covert the cost, and to be able to take up further education is a wonderful thing (and not just for kids) but where does the money come from.

Maybe the Unis could do more, I am sure they are not broke (well not all of them).

I do realise we need Unis, to keep us supplied with vital profesions, but I also think a lot of youngsters go to Uni because they do not know what else to do at that given time.

I would hate to see education become a privilege of the wealthy, as it once was, but the old ideas of 'free' education are just not viable anymore IMHO - that is all I am saying.

Poppy xx

 

[Gillie]

And yet we spend more on wars in other countries than we do on education?

Who decided that was a worth while cause?

 

[papverpoppies]

And yet we spend more on wars in other countries than we do on education?

Who decided that was a worth while cause?

We seem very good at being able to find the money - that only brings about distruction and wastes countless lives.

Politics is all about power - sod education and anything else.

Poppy xx

 

[LicensedToTrade]

Students under the old system earning anything over £15k had to pay back a minimum of 9% of earnings over that amount, and had that debt hanging over them to the age of 65 unless they became ill or died, but that debt is also not included in any bankruptcy hearings or IVA's and is not allowed to be written off as such.

The new system, I am still learning about

Yes you pay 9% on earnings ABOVE the threshold, rather than the 9% of total earnings, an error that a lot of people seem to have latched onto.

So if you earn less than £1250/mo you pay nothing, if you earned 1500/mo then you pay 9% of the extra £250 which equates to £22.50 in repayments each month.

Students loans CAN expire. If you graduated pre-1998 then it expires after 25 years or on your 50th birthday (60th birthday if you were over 40 when you took the course). Post-1998 (current system) it expires after 25 years or on your 65th birthday providing the loan never went into arrears.

As the interest rate is tied to inflation you will actually be sticking to 0% interest in real terms, easily the best loan you will ever have.

Like you I don't know that much about the inbound system...who knows?

 

[Gillie]

Yep, thats what I said - although, the 35 years of it being written off, is after you start making repayments or reach 65 years of age, so if you dont earn over the amount until you are 30 then yes 35 years or 65 equates to the same - but if you start making repayments when you are 25, then you have until you are 60 ...

Interest rates though changed in September of this year and you will pay 1% plus retail price index or Bank of England base rate - so if base rate rises, so does your interest.

 

[papverpoppies]

Yes you pay 9% on earnings ABOVE the threshold, rather than the 9% of total earnings, an error that a lot of people seem to have latched onto.

So if you earn less than £1250/mo you pay nothing, if you earned 1500/mo then you pay 9% of the extra £250 which equates to £22.50 in repayments each month.

Students loans CAN expire. If you graduated pre-1998 then it expires after 25 years or on your 50th birthday (60th birthday if you were over 40 when you took the course). Post-1998 (current system) it expires after 25 years or on your 65th birthday providing the loan never went into arrears.

As the interest rate is tied to inflation you will actually be sticking to 0% interest in real terms, easily the best loan you will ever have.

Like you I don't know that much about the inbound system...who knows?

So how does it work, say I had a Son about to start Uni, what do they look at, in terms of how and what you pay.

Are are fees the same or varied depending on the Uni in question.

Poppy xx

 

[Gillie]

Poppy - you dont pay anything - the student does!!

When they start they apply for student finance - if they need it.

They apply for the cost of the course which is now anything between £3k and £9k per annnum (used to just be £3k), they can also apply for student finance to cover the cost of living which is another £3k - you try paying for a years accommodation at the usual price of £100 per week with this!

If your family is on basic wage, or are unemployed or receive maximum working/child tax then you also qualify for approx £2-3K grant ie you dont pay it back.

If the child gets more than the required grades to get in, then at the discretion of each Uni, they can and will award bursuries of anything from £700 to £2000 per annum.

For those who say kids just head off to Uni to get drunk and live the life of riley - do some sums!

They have to pay approx £100 per week for 32 weeks, they have food to eat and pay for, travel, cost of books, fees for libraries, fees for student id cards etc ... it all comes to more than the you think!

 

[Dawg]

Sorry, are those figures right?

if you earned 1500/mo then you pay 9% of the extra £250 which equates to £22.50 in repayments each month.

1500/month is 18,000 a year, which is 3000 below the threshold.

If you earn 25,000 (about national average?) you pay 9% on 4000 or 360/year. Or 30 out of a monthly salary of 2083.

If you earnt 60,000 (top 10% of all earners), you would pay 292.5 a month from a salary of 5000/month.
These strike me as not being onerous.

Are my figures wrong somewhere?

 

yet we can we find money to hand vodaphone a 6 billion tax back and to let the super rich take the piss with tax avoidance .
yes philp green worked hard and employs lots of people but he also makes loads of money in this country ,whats he going to do shut up shop here? if he does so what some ealse will punt out sweat shop clothing in his place.
if we are all truely in this together well

 

[LicensedToTrade]

Sorry, are those figures right?
1500/month is 18,000 a year, which is 3000 below the threshold.

If you earn 25,000 (about national average?) you pay 9% on 4000 or 360/year. Or 30 out of a monthly salary of 2083.

If you earnt 60,000 (top 10% of all earners), you would pay 292.5 a month from a salary of 5000/month.
These strike me as not being onerous.

Are my figures wrong somewhere?

No your figures aren't wrong but you are thinking of the 21k threshold which is the incoming policy, not the current threshold which is 15k/year. In my figures I am talking about the current policy in which case someone earning 18k would pay 9% of the 3k that extends beyond the threshold.

So if we look at your 60k earner paying 292.50/mo then they will be repaying £3.5k each year. If we assume the person has attended a 3 year course at 9k/year for fees, 3k/year student expenditure loan then they owe a total of 36k for their course. If we exclude interest rates tied to inflation then it would take them 10-11 years to clear the loan.

Naturally most students will not start their first job with a salary of 60k, and the majority of them will never go on to earn this amount.

This is something that prospective students should take into account before they apply for a course, as you would when considering any commercial loan.

Ultimately as the system is based on a % of earnings rather than a flat fee it will always be tailored to the individual.

 

[Matt1959]

No your figures aren't wrong but you are thinking of the 21k threshold which is the incoming policy, not the current threshold which is 15k/year. In my figures I am talking about the current policy in which case someone earning 18k would pay 9% of the 3k that extends beyond the threshold.

So if we look at your 60k earner paying 292.50/mo then they will be repaying £3.5k each year. If we assume the person has attended a 3 year course at 9k/year for fees, 3k/year student expenditure loan then they owe a total of 36k for their course. If we exclude interest rates tied to inflation then it would take them 10-11 years to clear the loan.

Naturally most students will not start their first job with a salary of 60k, and the majority of them will never go on to earn this amount.

This is something that prospective students should take into account before they apply for a course, as you would when considering any commercial loan.

Ultimately as the system is based on a % of earnings rather than a flat fee it will always be tailored to the individual.

if the above figures are correct (I'm sure they are btw) and if any student loan is ringfenced so as not to affect future borrowing then WTF are they protesting for. Do the majority of them actually know what they going to London for? Really?

edit
perhaps the thread title is quite apt:|

 

[Dawg]

No your figures aren't wrong but you are thinking of the 21k threshold which is the incoming policy, not the current threshold which is 15k/year. In my figures I am talking about the current policy in which case someone earning 18k would pay 9% of the 3k that extends beyond the threshold.

So if we look at your 60k earner paying 292.50/mo then they will be repaying £3.5k each year. If we assume the person has attended a 3 year course at 9k/year for fees, 3k/year student expenditure loan then they owe a total of 36k for their course. If we exclude interest rates tied to inflation then it would take them 10-11 years to clear the loan.

Naturally most students will not start their first job with a salary of 60k, and the majority of them will never go on to earn this amount.

This is something that prospective students should take into account before they apply for a course, as you would when considering any commercial loan.

Ultimately as the system is based on a % of earnings rather than a flat fee it will always be tailored to the individual.

Thanks for explaining.

Which sort of brings me back to an earlier question. Figures I saw said 50% will repay nothing, 22% will repay less with the remainder on a sliding scale. If you factor in admin and collection costs, interest payments by HM govt. to borrow this money in the first place, and emigration, is the whole scheme viable?

It's quite right to expect the students to do their figures, has the government done theirs? It would be interesting to see figures, and from them to establish if this is financially or ideologically led. If it is ideologically led the Lib Dems really are on a hiding to nothing.

 

[LicensedToTrade]

Thanks for explaining.

Which sort of brings me back to an earlier question. Figures I saw said 50% will repay nothing, 22% will repay less with the remainder on a sliding scale. If you factor in admin and collection costs, interest payments by HM govt. to borrow this money in the first place, and emigration, is the whole scheme viable?

It's quite right to expect the students to do their figures, has the government done theirs? It would be interesting to see figures, and from them to establish if this is financially or ideologically led. If it is ideologically led the Lib Dems really are on a hiding to nothing.

It is still financially viable for the government and I believe they work on the following system....

Option A: Higher Education is free for everyone and costs the government a bomb.

Option B: Higher Education is given on loan, the govt probably won't recover all of the money it lends, but at least we will get some of it back! It also discourages timewasters who only want to go to uni for a laugh at the taxpayers expense.

EDIT: An additional comment. Students who apply to uni are often interviewed and questioned on their choices and suitablility from an academic point of view, but perhaps it should become a matter of practise that anyone who intends to make use of a student loan should have an interview with an IFA to point exactly what they are getting into. Similar to the requirements of an employment compromise agreement which requires interaction from a solicitor before the agreement becomes binding.

 

[Matt1959]

I've got my 2 stepchildren back here at Christmas - one at Uni, one left 2 yrs ago - should make for some interesting conversation around the dinner table

 

[LicensedToTrade]

I've got my 2 stepchildren back here at Christmas - one at Uni, one left 2 yrs ago - should make for some interesting conversation around the dinner table

It is a little strange that there wasn't so much fuss kicked up in 2006 when the fee cap went from 1k to 3k. Where will it stop?

Can I ask what courses they both did/are doing?

 

[Matt1959]

Can I ask what courses they both did/are doing?

older one, psychology re. children I believe - plymouth Uni and now wants to get sponsered by the NHS for a Doctorate. Younger one maths and physics - Southampton Uni. So I guess good stuff which will reap them rewards and put stuff back into the country - perhaps examples of making best use of the system? Meanwhile one of the partners has a degree in marine biology and works one day a week shelf stacking (left uni 2 years ago) perhaps not the best of examples....

 

[Greatime123]

Maybe the lib dems conservs and the labs got together before the electtions to decide who was going to come uo with that policy and shift the blame when they knew it was not going to go ahead . How well do we know our government...yikes