An arguement broke out last night

RockLinks · Feb 5, 2009

hi guys,

I ended up having a fairly heated arguement last night with my girlfriend and her mum, neither on them are business minded. The arguement started when my girlfriend told me about a local club owener whos business had gone quiet. One day he said to one of his employees to hit the streets flyer dropping. They seem to think that this was unfair and they refused to do it as it was not in their job description. My girlfriend and her mum agreed that if they where put under those circumstances they would refuse to do it as it was not in their job description. I disagree, surely if business is quiet naturally an employer would want to have his employees doing something constructive regardless whether it was in there job description. Would it be sackable offence if they refused?

it was an interesting arguement and would like to share with you guys

Craig

FluxServices · Feb 5, 2009

RockLinks said:
hi guys,

I ended up having a fairly heated arguement last night with my girlfriend and her mum, neither on them are business minded. The arguement started when my girlfriend told me about a local club owener whos business had gone quiet. One day he said to one of his employees to hit the streets flyer dropping. They seem to think that this was unfair and they refused to do it as it was not in their job description. My girlfriend and her mum agreed that if they where put under those circumstances they would refuse to do it as it was not in their job description. I disagree, surely if business is quiet naturally an employer would want to have his employees doing something constructive regardless whether it was in there job description. Would it be sackable offence if they refused?

it was an interesting arguement and would like to share with you guys

Craig

Well if its not in their job description then no they dont have to do it.

directmarketingadvice · Feb 5, 2009

Craig,

You're right.

And, you'd think that employees would be willing to help their employer stay in business.

But, you don't know the relationship the onwer has with his/her staff.

If he/she treats them like team members, then you'd hope/expect them to step up for the team.

But, if he/she treats them like serfs, then they can't expect to get back much loyalty in return.

Steve

Mattonella Tile Studio · Feb 5, 2009

I think it would depend on how far away it was from their job description. It is arguable that it is unacceptable to ask. However, if business is quiet then perhaps the employees should be thinking about the possibility of losing their jobs and want to help.

Zeno · Feb 5, 2009

The old "not in my job description" is trotted out all the time and is the bane of the small business employers life. The arguments are very often without legal merit.

I will generalise and say the attitude often comes from those who have worked in heavily unionised environments.

Knight · Feb 5, 2009

Job descriptions generally don't cover every eventuality, for example i've never seen 'Coffee & Tea maker' as a requirement on a JD but it is quite often expected of a junior. I also think that most places cover themselves by putting onJD's '...and any other duties as requested by line manager'

As far as I am concerned if I was asked to do something my my manager I would do it (within reason ;-)

In this climate though, I would have pointed out to them that they either get out there and promote the business or there will be no business for them to work for!

KM-Tiger · Feb 5, 2009

Do you get a Job Description on Benefits?

RockLinks · Feb 5, 2009

This is very much backing up my point! At the end of the day your getting paid for it, so why should it matter what your doing.

Steve2507 · Feb 5, 2009

Zeno said:
I will generalise and say the attitude often comes from those who have worked in heavily unionised environments.

Or those that just can't be bothered.

Barnie · Feb 5, 2009

tbh my thoughts are if you work 9-5 then between those hours you should be doing what ever benefits the business with in reason

flyering is within reason, topless dancing on the street is not but it is encouraged

paultnl · Feb 5, 2009

most JD's I have seen generaly end with plus other duties assigned by your manager

estwig · Feb 5, 2009

When you work for someone else, during working hours your time belongs to them.

That is what they pay you for, your time.

ken_uk · Feb 5, 2009

I have only ever refused a direct order from a boss once.

I was told to do some mains electric work up a ladder in the celiing, something to do with wiring up/fixing existing wiring etc.

Dont think he liked it as he fired me not that long after

Would do the same again though, not putting my life in danger, nor the lives of others just cause a boss wants to save money on hiring a qualified electrician - which I was not. Just because I could solder up leads for xenix terminals did not qualify me to risk starting a fire/electrocuting someone...

RockLinks · Feb 5, 2009

Well in this particular case working in a bar, i expect they get alot of perks aswell!

maria102 · Feb 5, 2009

Zeno said:
I will generalise and say the attitude often comes from those who have worked in heavily unionised environments.

And so will I and say that it would be typically a public sector employee.

An Oasis · Feb 5, 2009

Mutinous staff + Taser = Motivated Staff

Christophe · Feb 5, 2009

this came up when I used to work at Olan Mills (before they went bust the 1st time...)

Our American owners decreed that during quiet times, staff should hit the town centre with flyers... not only that, but stop talking to people and try and get appointments.

ALL the staff had issues with this, the whole JD thing came up. As i pointed out, particulary to the sales staff "you are sales staff, so go out and sell!!!"

It ultimatly failed because no one really did it... the ironic thing was that it worked. Whenever I went to a studio, and went out leafleting, i'd end up bringing a sitting back. Not a great quality sitting, and they never spent the average spend... but it was a sitting from nowhere.

The same in Estate Agency... I used to target my neg's on delivering leaflets door to door (at least 100 per day). BUT, would always lead from the front, and get out there doing it myself.

Jimmy Lawrence · Feb 5, 2009

It may not be in there job description but i am shure they would rather do it than be out of the job and the club shut down because of lack of customers.

lesliedocherty · Feb 5, 2009

people need a reality check sometimes,

my sister walked out on Xmas eve cause she wanted boxing day off & New Year, she said she would find another job, 5 weeks later without a job she's wishing she just done the shifts.

people get to complacent, i do reckon the taser is a good tool to use.

RockLinks · Feb 5, 2009

Your right, its people like that which is making this country run into big problems. The amount of people i know who have lost jobs and are just sat at home waiting for something to turn up. Get out there get motivated and knock on people doors!

PI Guy · Feb 5, 2009

It is their job to follow any reasonable instructions from the ir employer and refusal is gross misconduct.

Simon-M · Feb 5, 2009

It's typical of the mentality of job seekers coming through nowadays. They have never seen a recession so until they find themselves on the scrap heap the reality does not hit home.

I have a point in my job descriptions that says they do anything as required. Within reason of course. Promoting your business to bring in custom would be a valid request of any member of staff.

When the club closes and they are asked to fill out their benefit forms, will they cry that it is not in the job description?

Reality check required me thinks.

Adam.uk · Feb 5, 2009

A while ago, I put up a thread about a car crash i was in.

Some of the responses where very interesting if not a little surprising, something that struck me was peoples irrational thinking combined with a lack of common sense to put it nicely.

If a business is quiet - then asking, key word, asking the employees to letter drop should be acceptable.

mrRed · Feb 5, 2009

In this climate though, I would have pointed out to them that they either get out there and promote the business or there will be no business for them to work for![/quote]

I agree with this.
In most clubs, alot of the barstaff/cloakroom attendents etc are employed on a casual/part time basis. so i don't think they're bothered how many people come through the door, as long a they get paid for their shift.
If they were actually bothered about the business and wanted it to do well, they should be doing whatever they can to get the punters in.
I have a friend who was a managed the bar of a club and on more than one occasion she got out there and did the flyering. I think it has something to do with loyalty to the business and employer, but then again, we don't know the relationship the staff mentioned had with the employer.

The Panda · Feb 5, 2009

I wont even do a leaflet drop myself in this weather. Would not expect any one else to either.

jamesgilbertson100 · Feb 5, 2009

Interesting argument I would say that it was perfectly correct in the owner asking them to drop flyers...Your in the right! Your mum and bird are wrong!

Take Care James

BusinessIdeas · Feb 5, 2009

They would probably drop them if I asked - In the bin :redface:

Cornish Steve · Feb 5, 2009

RockLinks said:
hi guys,

I ended up having a fairly heated arguement last night with my girlfriend and her mum, neither on them are business minded. The arguement started when my girlfriend told me about a local club owener whos business had gone quiet. One day he said to one of his employees to hit the streets flyer dropping. They seem to think that this was unfair and they refused to do it as it was not in their job description. My girlfriend and her mum agreed that if they where put under those circumstances they would refuse to do it as it was not in their job description. I disagree, surely if business is quiet naturally an employer would want to have his employees doing something constructive regardless whether it was in there job description. Would it be sackable offence if they refused?

it was an interesting arguement and would like to share with you guys

Craig

I really don't understand this mentality. Throughout my career, I've asked people to work long hours, fly to the other side of the world at the drop of a hat, work occasional long weekends, and the like - and no one ever objected. I look after people, and they know I'll make it up somehow. If they had a good reason for not doing something, that's different, but if they had the attitude you're mentioning, they'd be out of a job in an instant. A job is not welfare.

Feb 5, 2009

I would not have someone employed who would not do whatever was necessary to help my business. The old 'not in my job description' cuts no ice with me. Your job descriptnio should be written in such a way that it covers the incidental things like this (a fairly sweeping 'any other duties' should cover it).

If you don't wanna help my business, you'd be shown the door, period.

Ianmaney · Feb 6, 2009

Hi Rocklinks, i have to say i agree with you entirely, if the club goes under through lack of trade, then they dont have a job, now what does their 'job description' state ?????

fuzzygoat · Feb 6, 2009

There are a range of different types of employers.
There are some that make the employee feel part of the company and praise them for good work. As a result the employee will do whatever it takes to keep the company going.
There are others who view the employees and an irritating cost and strive to get the most work for the least money. Subsequently the employee will do as little work as possible to get through the day.

The club staff seem to have got complacent, the fear of loosing their jobs should be enough for them to agree to do the task. However it also seems the owner has either employed the wrong people or not given them adequate motivation.

Emma108 · Feb 9, 2009

For sure - if your boss asks you to do something (within reason) which is going to help the business and which will prevnt you from sitting around all day being paid for doing nothing as the club is quiet - then you should get on and do it. After all, you are being paid to work for the business!

SLF · Feb 9, 2009

Well from what I read, this means I can hire someone on NMW to do my admin, then send them out leaflet dropping and save me hundreds of pounds, then they can come in and start doing some telemarketing, still on NMW, then I might even get them doing sales. He he, all on NMW and no commission - simply because I can because they cant refuse!

Seriously though, IMO the boss would have been better sitting down with the staff and saying right, we have a problem, I might have to cut your hours or lay you off til business bucks up, or, can you come up with ideas on how we can bring in business ourselves, and im sure they would have had the idea themselves, and done it willingley. It's the way you do it that gets results and participation.

PaddyPawsPetServices · Feb 9, 2009

as someone who used to do bar work ( and is looking for some extra work atm to supplement my business ) I dont see why they wont flyer drop, whether or not its in the JD or not.

I think what this does boil down to is the management...if the staff are treated fairly then most wouldnt have a problem, if the manager is a bit of an A hole, then you could possibly understand.

tho in the currrent climate I would give the " put up or shut up " speech

stugster · Feb 9, 2009

I used to work for a night-club and I'm surprised they actually got a "job description". Mine was that I would be working in the nightclub.

I left the club when the manager (not the owner) said that I had to work both Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve.

I was quite annoyed, and asked if I could simply do one of the shifts, rather than both. The answer was no.

So, on Christmas Eve, I tendered my resignation on their answering machine.

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An arguement broke out last night

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