Postcoding
- Thread starter paul1664
- Start date
Agree and was just editing my reposnse as it was an observation i made
Also a big difference between ethical and legal as i am sure you are aware. As i am sure you know they did not design the site for you to do that you have just found a way around it. Legal - possible - ethical ?
Anyway i edited my reply as not my place to make observations
FE
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As i said above before you edited again it did not need an observation from me but its not free? who compiles this info, who pays for the hosting, updating of the database etc etc. If it was free then you would not have to ''trick'' others websites.
The debate of should it be free is completely different.
Anyway as i said not my place to question your ethics and why i edited the original reply as soon as i posted
FE
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Yeah, no real argument about it.
I think it's the Royal Mail or Post Office.
Sooner Google or someone makes it freely available, the better.
The same thing with bank sort codes and resolving bank address info.
I'm not in ethical nightmares about looking at a postcode, though
Yes i would ike to see it freely available but its not yet which is the point i was making.
As for the ethics then everyone is different but if the data is not free or the methodology you are using in obtaining is not recognised by the data owner then it does come down to ethics.
These will differ from person to person but my point is / was you are openly posting under your ltd company name and could do more damage than harm.
FE
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I don't get it. The site I use says free postcodes (and free address lookups). Free... that's what it says. Am I missing something here? What's wrong with filling your boots if it's free?
When God said to Moses "Hey, you with the beard! Would you like a commandment?" then Moses naturally asked how much it would cost. "It's free," said the Lord. Quick as a flash, Moses said "I'll take ten!"
When God said to Moses "Hey, you with the beard! Would you like a commandment?" then Moses naturally asked how much it would cost. "It's free," said the Lord. Quick as a flash, Moses said "I'll take ten!"
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You have to pay for the data. So if a site e,g, UKBF pays for the data and allows its users to look it up free of charge thats fine.
What Ling was suggesting is that you can enter the same search on a different site which will then go to a site offering it for their users / members, grab the results and display on that other site i.e. not paying for the raw data.
Many like the Royal Mail website prevent this by putting security in. Others are not so security conscious and so it is possible by using code.
A bit like giving a free sample for visiting a shop. Its not desined for anothr shop to offer the same only for every customer that comes in and asks for one the owner of the other shop to run down the street, pick up the gift, run back and give to their customer.
Legal - possible, ethical - opinion
That was the discussion
FE
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There is an issue of exploiting legitimate business owners who pay for this data from a provider, costing them money as mentioned above. The licence fees from Royal Mail for this data are very expensive (not freely available) and are covered by veru strict usage T&C's. Different licences for internal and external use, limiting the number of searches you are allowed to do between internal and external use depending on the licence you buy.
My personal opinion, if you want to to use a postcode search then either find somone who clearly states they are free or subscribe to a legitimate service provide. Don't skim them from another business owners website costing them money, it isn't fair nor right to do so. It is effectively stealing.
If the OP wants to know someone who provides postcode lookup data then a friend of mine runs The Company Merchant that provides postcode lookups.
My personal opinion, if you want to to use a postcode search then either find somone who clearly states they are free or subscribe to a legitimate service provide. Don't skim them from another business owners website costing them money, it isn't fair nor right to do so. It is effectively stealing.
If the OP wants to know someone who provides postcode lookup data then a friend of mine runs The Company Merchant that provides postcode lookups.
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Ling do they say ''you can interrogate their database, retrieve and display on your website''? Have you asked if you can implement this practice? do they know you do it?
As i have said many times the fact that they may be incompotent with their security does not make it right in my opinion (my opinion alone and probably not shared by others).
Again is it legal? i don't know you would have to check the exact T&C's their confidentiality etc etc as one thing is for sure it will not say ''fill your boots''
Is it ethical? No not in my opinion
If all was so certain then why not contact the people with the data and get written approval which would make it all very ethical. By assuming its ok as you can get away with it does not make it ethical or right in my opinion.
If its data that you like and wish to display why do you not pay for it and allow other sites to display for free and set the trend?
FE
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Ling i take the above is tongue in cheek yes?
Are you really saying because others do it then its right?
You are representing a Limited company surely because illegal DVD's are produced does not make it right or ethical to watch them because someone else has?
The site who have paid for the data have chosen to allow THEIR users to view it for free. It was not intended for other sites to take and display as their own
If as you say they must be happy about it or would have put more security in then why not write to them and openly state what you are doing and get an agreement?
Again the question is it legal? - write to the company you are getting it from stating exactly what you are doing and fine it will be.
Again is it ethical? - Because someone we know has watched an illegal DVD then sure it must be? come on you are a Director of a Limited company!
With regards CAP data come on you surely know more than that. There are several CAP data packages
1) list of all cars, manufacturers, accessories, costs, p11 d values
2) list of cars & vans as per above (obviously without p11d for lcv's)
3) RV and maintenance values
You do not need it because you run off other broker systems that have already purchased the data and through your agreement can view it i.e. you do not run your own pricing model its done for you by the funder. If you have a system where you run your own quotes then you can either manually enter all line by line and then ensure accuracy or pay for it but most of the data above is not freely available its just you do not need it all as you use others i.e. a broker system where they have paid for it
I will not go on as again assume you are having a laugh as you justify not paying for data and taking from someones site because they do not state you can not do it have you investigated their copyright statements etc etc or simply because you can it makes it right.
Again its all about ethics and they differ from business to business and person to person but justifying you and your business taking data from another site because ''we have all watched an illegal DVD'' is something i would expect from a child justifying why they have done something wrong not a Director of an ethical Limited company
If all so ok why not write to the owner of the data of the website you get it form and ask permission surely he or she will be ok with it as probably on their sofa watching an illegal DVD with a pair of fake Nikes on their feet!
Sorry but it really annoys me that you can call people dim for legally and ethically buying data for the business that is core when others simply steal it in my opinion and justify it because others do it. That does not make it right or ethical and to be honest I would not use any business that has that outlook or ethics but as you say there are many illegal DVDs sold so hey it must be ok.
I mean you could say we all know someone who has been burgled and some who has sold or purchased stolen goods. That must be ok as well yes?
Again I will assume you were joking above otherwise all I can say is I am disappointed and do not condone your customers that support those ethics.
You state on another thread how your sales are up then stand up and be big and pay your way!
Again, my opinion for what it is worth!
FE
Are you really saying because others do it then its right?
You are representing a Limited company surely because illegal DVD's are produced does not make it right or ethical to watch them because someone else has?
The site who have paid for the data have chosen to allow THEIR users to view it for free. It was not intended for other sites to take and display as their own
If as you say they must be happy about it or would have put more security in then why not write to them and openly state what you are doing and get an agreement?
Again the question is it legal? - write to the company you are getting it from stating exactly what you are doing and fine it will be.
Again is it ethical? - Because someone we know has watched an illegal DVD then sure it must be? come on you are a Director of a Limited company!
With regards CAP data come on you surely know more than that. There are several CAP data packages
1) list of all cars, manufacturers, accessories, costs, p11 d values
2) list of cars & vans as per above (obviously without p11d for lcv's)
3) RV and maintenance values
You do not need it because you run off other broker systems that have already purchased the data and through your agreement can view it i.e. you do not run your own pricing model its done for you by the funder. If you have a system where you run your own quotes then you can either manually enter all line by line and then ensure accuracy or pay for it but most of the data above is not freely available its just you do not need it all as you use others i.e. a broker system where they have paid for it
I will not go on as again assume you are having a laugh as you justify not paying for data and taking from someones site because they do not state you can not do it have you investigated their copyright statements etc etc or simply because you can it makes it right.
Again its all about ethics and they differ from business to business and person to person but justifying you and your business taking data from another site because ''we have all watched an illegal DVD'' is something i would expect from a child justifying why they have done something wrong not a Director of an ethical Limited company
If all so ok why not write to the owner of the data of the website you get it form and ask permission surely he or she will be ok with it as probably on their sofa watching an illegal DVD with a pair of fake Nikes on their feet!
Sorry but it really annoys me that you can call people dim for legally and ethically buying data for the business that is core when others simply steal it in my opinion and justify it because others do it. That does not make it right or ethical and to be honest I would not use any business that has that outlook or ethics but as you say there are many illegal DVDs sold so hey it must be ok.
I mean you could say we all know someone who has been burgled and some who has sold or purchased stolen goods. That must be ok as well yes?
Again I will assume you were joking above otherwise all I can say is I am disappointed and do not condone your customers that support those ethics.
You state on another thread how your sales are up then stand up and be big and pay your way!
Again, my opinion for what it is worth!
FE
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I hadn't given disability access a thought for my site. Umm actually that's not true - I gave it a thought and did away with CSS and used fixed font sizes instead (I figured that anyone with poor eyesight would set their monitor to 800 x 600 rather than paddle about with IE font sizes).
But along the lines you are talking of Ling, in my world nobody seems to give a monkey's scratch about:
The Information Commissioner - so many firms who ought to register don't bother registering as data controllers under the DPA;
Dept of Trade - guidelines recommend a 5 to 10 minute break from the screen every 50 mins for computer operators;
Employee Handbook - The staff procedure and rulebook that's meant to hang from your noticeboard or some such similar place;
Fire Drills - Hands up anyone who actually bothers with statutory fire drills (eeek I've just noticed our fire hydrant's vamoosed);
Ageism - Although I read this week of a 50 year old woman, chartered certified accountant and formerly in a senior managerial position, who made a six figure bundle by applying for jobs as a trainee and then suing under the new ageism act. Beats working!
There are far too many rules and regulations by which we must now comply; we'd never get anything done if we took any notice of most of them. Postcodes and disabilities included.
Even that old nag of yours looks copyright familiar Ling - (upline on my wife's side of the family).
But along the lines you are talking of Ling, in my world nobody seems to give a monkey's scratch about:
The Information Commissioner - so many firms who ought to register don't bother registering as data controllers under the DPA;
Dept of Trade - guidelines recommend a 5 to 10 minute break from the screen every 50 mins for computer operators;
Employee Handbook - The staff procedure and rulebook that's meant to hang from your noticeboard or some such similar place;
Fire Drills - Hands up anyone who actually bothers with statutory fire drills (eeek I've just noticed our fire hydrant's vamoosed);
Ageism - Although I read this week of a 50 year old woman, chartered certified accountant and formerly in a senior managerial position, who made a six figure bundle by applying for jobs as a trainee and then suing under the new ageism act. Beats working!
There are far too many rules and regulations by which we must now comply; we'd never get anything done if we took any notice of most of them. Postcodes and disabilities included.
Even that old nag of yours looks copyright familiar Ling - (upline on my wife's side of the family).
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You are changing the subject to meet your needs
The topic is about:
You as Lingscars Ltd accessing someones site who pays for data to display to their users, taking that data for a commercial use for your own means. The reasoning you have given for this is because we all know someone who has watched a copied DVD - come on don't change the subject
With regards Fleet Efficiency Ltd
Every image on our site has been paid for. We pay for CAP data. Any image on our site we that has copyright we have paid for. Any image on our site that we do not have copyright for we have permission from the originator. So DO NOT put us in your pool of poor ethical decisions.
The bottom line is and the subject is you are taking data because you can and because ''we all know someone who has watched a copied DVD'' That in my opinion is pathetic. Its not a perfect world i live in but a business one where i do not believe in theft. Yes we could save thousands by adopting your approach and steal data but there again i could also implement armed bank robbery as a strategy!
Very lame in my opinion and very disappointed in you and your company that feels its right that your sales are up but you continue to take data others have paid for because you can and you know someone who has watched a copied DVD. Thats not a perfect world thats just wrong.
FE
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Sorry am i missing the point
What has the above got to do with taking data from someone, that has paid for it, without their knowledge and using for commercial use?
The H&S regulations and HR law has what to do with this? sorry maybe i am missing the point or are you of the same opinion that no need to abide by any regulations because you also know someone who has watched a copied DVD
The level of regulations surrounding H&S, HR etc is a complete different debate.
I also do not agree with the 70mph maximum speed limit and we all know people that have broken it. Fact remains that if you do its illegal and you will be fined.
The point in all of this is as a Limited business is it right to promote such practices in the open i.e. via the medium of the web.
Ling as a Director of Lingscars Ltd clearly states she promotes her business in obtaining without consent others paid for data for her own commerical gain. its got nothing o do with if it should be free or not the fact is that it is not
FE
FE
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Guys, instead of arguing about it, try contributing to http://www.freethepostcode.org/ and we can all free the database.
They have an iPhone app if you have a 3G iPhone but no others that I'm aware of yet.
They have an iPhone app if you have a 3G iPhone but no others that I'm aware of yet.
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Getting a little heated here and slightly off topic at times, but as this does affect a friend of mine I will throw in another comment as I'm on the same side of the fence as FE.
This discussion is not about the ever increasing legislation that is being thrown in by government to screw businesses. It has moved onto the potential commercial theft of data from one business owner by another business owner.
Many private number plate dealers were leaching number plate prices and availability from the DVLA website. The information was freely available from their website, but it breached the small print of their terms and conditions. It doesn't matter if someone ignored the T&C's, the fact is they were there and many businesses faced prosecution for theft.
However, let's say this website have failed to get proper T&C's written for their company website and haven't got a clause stating something to the effect that it is not allowed to leach data from their website. Then it is no different what so ever from a market trader turning his back on his stall for a moment and someone steals a load of his stock. That doesn't make it right, it doesn't make it ethical, and it would be wrong to blame the market stall owner saying it was his own stupid fault for turning round to pick up a carrier bag to serve a customer.
The government problems, red tape, legislation is one thing, but we are all business owners here supposedly in my mind like one great big team. Call my niave if you like but I don't care. I don't have pirate software, I pay for postcode lookups, even if opportunities arise to take advantage of another business owners mistake it would feel to me like robbing from one of your own to do so.
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The Royal Mail website provide a service where you can do this yourself on their own website, for free. Have a look here
Not costing any business owner any money as getting it straight from source to run a small number of checks each day. Everyones happy
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Lingyou chose not to read what i write as it does not match your opinion
For the avoidance of doubt:
All images we display on our website that have a copyright have been paid for. All others we have permission end of story THIS IS NOT THE SUBJECT TO END OF DEBATE ON THAT.
With regards the data:
the website you obtain the data from issue the data for THEIR users.
The question remains that you choose to IGNORE - If they are aware and are happy with what you are doing WHY NOT ASK THEM AND GET CONFIRMATION?????????
The volume of times you do it is irrelevant as if you do it a few times why not us the Royal mail webiste which clearly states it is free except they have security to make sure you are not automating it.
If the data is useful to yoru business then why not pay for it. If other websites give it away and they do nto clearly state you can obtain and use for your commercial use then why not contact them and make sure they are in agreement with you using it.
My bank has not got a sign up saying please do not rob us today does not mean that it is ok to do it though does it?
Now if you wish to continue this debate why not ask the website you aregetting the data to confirm that it is ok for you to obtain electronically and use for your business free of charge as ylo say they are full aware and happy with it? Would not be bcaue they may say No buy your own and put security in place top stop you doig it would it?
Again down to ethics and watching copied DVD's i persume!
FE
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Without you enlightening what site or service you are using it is not possible to give a clear comment, but you have implied in your past messages that may be exploiting a loophole in a businesses website by blocking cookies. This would naturally imply that you are doing something wrong by trying to circumvent a business owners attempt to stop people abusing their system.
Actually mis-deliveries costs the Royal Mail hundreds of thousands of pounds, because they do not charge for the "Return to Sender" or manually written "please redliver to..." service they provide. They redeliver millions of letters correctly at their cost each year.
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Ling the Royal mai website cleary states:
You must not use this service for any purpose other than your own personal use.
You are a limited company using for commercial use
The differene is that their security STOPS you taking and sing against their T&C's
Teh debate of hould it be free or not is irrelevant in this case as the FACT is that it is not
If te Data is so god for you then WHY DO YOU NOT PAY FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FE
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LING - Why do you feel you are entitled to free data for commercial use when others have to pay for it?
So far your reasoning is becaue we all know someone who has watched a copied DVD & you do not do the practice a lot?
What is the difference then if i rob my local bank just the once and i know someone who has watched a copied DVD why i should not go to jail?
If anyone is going md or silly then i would say it is you Ling
FE
So far your reasoning is becaue we all know someone who has watched a copied DVD & you do not do the practice a lot?
What is the difference then if i rob my local bank just the once and i know someone who has watched a copied DVD why i should not go to jail?
If anyone is going md or silly then i would say it is you Ling
FE
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All depend how ethical you are
Some believe mugging old ladies is correct some don't - al depends your ethics
In terms of growing up then maybe ou need to review yourself in terms of runnin an ethical company and the duties you have as a Company Director?
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Fair do's, I just did a quick search as I seem to recall they had the service on their website. I did not check their T&C's, but in business it is advisable to read every contract you enter into otherwise you could end up falling fowl of the law without even realising it.
This reads as if you are actually saying you are knowingly abusing a business owners website loophole, which is effectively stealing from a business owner of you are.
Yes I do agree with you, they should, but that isn't the discussion here. They wont though because they charge huge amounts of money for it. A nice little earner for selling old rope. See the price list here...
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Ling
You are putting every barrier in place and refuse to answer the question. Again the bank analogy - My bank does not have a sighn saying please do not rob me does not mean to say i can.
Because you do not read T&C's does not make it legal or right
Because we all know someone who has watched a copied DVD does not make it legal or right
Fact is - WHY DO YOU FEEL YOU HAVE NOT GOT TO PAY FOR THE DATA
you hav responded by
1) you do not read T&C's
2) you know someone who has watched a DVD
That in my opinion is very poor and shows the ethics of both you and your company.
Unless you wish to answer the question of why you should feel you do not have to pay for somehing and that you have a rigt to simply take without consent then this debate is closed on my behalf
FE
You are putting every barrier in place and refuse to answer the question. Again the bank analogy - My bank does not have a sighn saying please do not rob me does not mean to say i can.
Because you do not read T&C's does not make it legal or right
Because we all know someone who has watched a copied DVD does not make it legal or right
Fact is - WHY DO YOU FEEL YOU HAVE NOT GOT TO PAY FOR THE DATA
you hav responded by
1) you do not read T&C's
2) you know someone who has watched a DVD
That in my opinion is very poor and shows the ethics of both you and your company.
Unless you wish to answer the question of why you should feel you do not have to pay for somehing and that you have a rigt to simply take without consent then this debate is closed on my behalf
FE
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If someone makes the decision not to read the T&C's of a website that is their perogative, but it still doesn't absolve them from the law. Ignorance is not an excuse. I'm also not saying whether the Royal Mail T&C's are right or wrong.
However, if anyone was going to make regular use of an ongoing service, then I would advisable read their Terms & Conditions. If you haven't read the T&C's of this other website you use, then how do you not know that you are or are not breaking the law by doing what you are doing?
Also, as you are having difficulty posting the entire content of the Royal Mail T&C's on here perhaps just making a link to the relevant page of their website would be easier
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Because you refuse to answer the question of why you feel you should not pay for it so there is no debate. Strange really as you seem to be very opiniated on many things but will not answer this simple question hence why i gave up wasting my time
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We are in a very different business. We are Fleet Management B2B she is retail cars. We issue work to companies such as Lingcars / Brokers
Just to state my point i originally replied to the post saying i do not think it right that a Director of a Limited company should ''boast'' how their company is taking data without paying for it.
What any business or human does is their own concern as it is their ethics
I made a statement and left it but Ling decided to debate her ethics of how she feels its right to do it which i disagree with. Noting abut industry its about persoanl and company ethics where we differ
Wild Goose who is not in the same industry but i still disagree the same. so unsure as to your point to be honest
FE
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Ling, this is what my specific point was in relation to. I'm saying that if you are entering into an ongoing arrangement then it would be advisable to check the T&C's because if you don't then you don't know whether you are breaking the law.
You might not be, but it would be very advisable to make sure.
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Now, it's the "boasting" that is wrong
I can say, without a shadow of doubt, I am not breaking any T and C's by boasting.
My own T and C's say (written ages ago):
Terms very simple:
I provide a straightforward service, if anything is unclear, please to contact me.
... loads of guff which is generally rubbish ...
You are damn lucky that the laws of England and Wales (and not of the People's Republic of China) govern these conditions of use and you agree that the English courts shall have exclusive jurisdiction in any dispute.
Ling i choose not to live in China so not sure what that has to do with anything but the question remains
WHY DO YOU FEEL YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR DATA THAT IS CHAREGABLE
Why do you not answer the question?
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