Moving from EKM - who's best for me?

movietub · Nov 10, 2008

I have 2 EKM sites at the moment, I need to get them both off EKM and somewhere decent. I need something a bit more advanced as we're getting very busy!

Common problems include:

1) I need to make sweeping changes across entire product ranges, move products rapidly between categories and link related products. This is cumbersome with EKM. I need something fully drag and drop which is totally flexible and powerful. Maybe this is possible to do offline using an applet that swaps data between desktop and website db?

2) EKM delivery options are useless. For example I sell some frozen products which carry an additional charge on top of normal delivery. The problem is if customers buy more than one they get the additional charge mutiple times. EKM's delivery settings simply don't have sufficient depth to handle this sort of thing.

3) I need a much stronger CRM side to the package. We often send out a part complete order (for example if we have 9 out of 10 items ordered in stock) and I need to be able mark it as such on the system rather than print it off and scribble all over it.

4) I would like to see a sytem that can keep track of profit per sale as well. its difficult to iron out all product/delivery combinations that could potentially wipe out profit - this would save me money so surely someone has developed a solution and will sell it to me?

5) Overall quality of site appearance, page ranking, statistic tracking and so fourth could stand to be improved greatly.

I'm fully open to suggestions, maybe I need to get something custom done to tick all those boxes? Budgets not the problem it once was as the business model is now well proven. I also think the following improvments would help growth no end.

Ideas? I'd really like to hear from people who have switched from EKM as well as those with a suitable service they can offer themselves.

Cheers

movietub · Nov 10, 2008

his one is the best I've found so far - anyone any experience?

http://demo.thisispearl.com/admin/

Seems very well featured

Marlene · Nov 10, 2008

Hi I think we're in the same situation here

Welcome anyway, I've also posted few threads about leaving EKM, I think it will be very popular topic

webworxindia · Nov 10, 2008

I think you need to go Bespoke as you are looking for more Flexibility and also want the SEO and CRM support for your website.

In terms of CRM what do you want ? As it contains a lot of things. You need to be more precise in this.

movietub · Nov 10, 2008

webworxindia said:
I think you need to go Bespoke as you are looking for more Flexibility and also want the SEO and CRM support for your website.

In terms of CRM what do you want ? As it contains a lot of things. You need to be more precise in this.

Well at the moment we use EKM's very basic CRM, which essentially keeps track of order status and record correspondance emails. Naturally never a day goes by where an order isnt more complicated than that so we print them all off and get to work with colour coded marker pens as we pick, pack deal with out of stock items etc.

I really want to get this all done electronically. I realise for accounts purposes I need to print a regular summary of the orders, also the packing labels of course. But it's the 21st century, I want an efficient work place and I don't want 100's of sheets of a4 paper clogging every inch of everyones desk!

What I need is a CRM felxible enough to allow me to introduce my own catagories of order status, sent, part sent, waiting stock and so on. I need also to track enquiries about products we don't stock, set tasks to source and find these products and maybe even reminders to get back to the customer.
I have used CRM software such as maximizer before, something which had a similar level offunctionality would be great. The link I posted earlier --> http://demo.thisispearl.com/admin/ does all the above, sadly no drop and drag functionality for catagories or products however!

Drag and drop isnt a deal breaker but it would be a nice cherry!

The way I'm thinking is...

If I write a word a document, there is nothing I can do with any other word processor that I can't do with MS Word.

If I want to manage an eccomerce site, there is nothing I can do with any other solution that I can't do with --> insert answer here! <--

DuaneJackson · Nov 10, 2008

EKM are and odd lot. A lot of their customers use our accounting software and want some kind of integration. There's a few posts on their forum about it.

We offered to work with them to get some integration going - keep their existing customers happy and they would have got loads more from us.

No reply to emails, phonecalls and given short service in person (at an Exhibition)

A lot of their customers seem to be jumping ship.

If you want something good from a company that does listen to it's customers, try Open Mind Commerce.

movietub · Nov 10, 2008

DuaneJackson said:
EKM are and odd lot. A lot of their customers use our accounting software and want some kind of integration. There's a few posts on their forum about it.

We offered to work with them to get some integration going - keep their existing customers happy and they would have got loads more from us.

No reply to emails, phonecalls and given short service in person (at an Exhibition)

A lot of their customers seem to be jumping ship.

If you want something good from a company that does listen to it's customers, try Open Mind Commerce.

Ok I gave it an honest trial! I spent about an hour looking through the features.

It actually looks and feels a lot like EKM, much more upto date presentation wise of course. I also think the finished shops look a lot better.

Feature wise its not much better, it still doesnt offer the fine tuning of delivery which is currently causing us problems. There are no quantity breakers. i.e. 1-10 items = x extra postage 11-20 equals the same charge again.

Could do it all on weight but thats no good if light items also require special types of delivery.

To sum up I would say they are where EKM would be if EKM ever developed their model - which they don't seem to do!

Flying Hippy · Nov 10, 2008

Hi Movietub,

I currently use EKM I understand the issue your having with postage. I was told by EKM they are slowly bringing in new feature ect

Any chance you can PM you websites to me as all the ekmshop seem to have a template feel to them. Would all the hard work you have done web ranking ect change when you change from EKM ?

It may be possible for data to be exported to another program that gets what you want done that way you do not need to change the feel of your sites as any changes may affect you ranking ?

I need to find out also my store is only 4 months old but in the future as business grows I will experiance same issues.

Nov 10, 2008

Hi, you're after quite a lot of more customised features, I've no idea if you've tried the demo shop of my host Internet Retailer (click on shopkeeper pages) or not yet but I would suggest taking a look, if it doesn't do exactly what you want then its worth pm'ing Dave (quikshop on this forum) and asking him some pertinent questions regarding specific requirements and he may well be able to help.

The biggest advantage I've always found with my host is their flexibility, all changes and improvements have come about directly from customer requests, unless its very very unique and bespoke this is also carried out at no additional charge as it benefits everyone else. Its software which because is their own white label is pretty adaptive and I've been able to grow a fast moving business with a lot of bespoke order requirements through them for 4 years with no problems.

I think a lot probably depends on what budget you have to cover a more tailored bespoke route, I have my doubts that any solution exists which is entirely 100% a match to what you're looking for without going down a fuly customised route, but finding one which can and is willing to look at what can be done is at least a way forward.

Christiane · Nov 10, 2008

Some of your requirements are exactly what I am looking for too, although I'm realising I simply hadn't put words on it. Being able to have a ''part-ship'' option with summary page per product so that when a product comes back in stock, you know who is waiting for back orders. That would save me a lot of hassle too.
Another suggestion that I put to internetretailer is to be able to give customers a credit to their account if they don't want to wait for a back order or if I have to refund postage, etc. They can do this with their Premium Shop Design with a little bit of coding, I believe. I'd have thought the part shop option would be down to coding too, it's like adding a field between ''payment received'' and ''despatched'', except you'd need to ''tick'' the item that was not despatched. mmmmm maybe not as simple!!! My customers like the fact they can still order an out-of-stock item that will be despatched as soon as it's back in.
Like Boho says, internetretailer seem a pretty ''dynamic'' company that implement changes, etc.

Nov 10, 2008

You can mark orders as part despatched currently on Internet Retailer, and you also have an out of stock page, so you can easily view products which you currently dont have in. The part despatched selection also shows up on the customers personal account so they also know its a part order. You do currently have a situation where the invoice/despatch note remains as is, but I dont think it would be beyond Dave to add a field in order to make the part despatch system a little more defined if needed.

You also have a function to email out directly to customers from the order screen and your email remains visible on screen in the back office, so I find that very useful when it comes to checking on any part orders as I know what I have communicated already.

As I have part orders marked up I can easily see them in my processing section as well.

movietub · Nov 10, 2008

Thanks for all the input guys,

If I'm honest all these seem to suffer from the same problem. - To alter several products at once relies on clicking through several times. There are no batch options.

For example imagine you have a range of 10 items, each listed as a seperate version of the same product. You want to assign 10 related items to each of these products. On the last couple of suggested sites I looked at this would require 100 seperate operations to achieve. It's just not dynamic and smart enough.

I found etradepro which use a fully dynamic drag and drop, multiple selection interface which makes life so much easier - sadly quite a few other features missing!

And http://demo.thisispearl.com/admin which has some increadible features, seriously everything you could realistically need but no drag and drop!

What I don't understand is eccomerce is a massive growing market so how come no-one is investing in a 'best of all' solution to bring to people like me?

There seem to be a lot of devs on this forum in fact - hows about banding together...

Nov 11, 2008

movietub said:
If I'm honest all these seem to suffer from the same problem. - To alter several products at once relies on clicking through several times. There are no batch options.

For example imagine you have a range of 10 items, each listed as a seperate version of the same product. You want to assign 10 related items to each of these products. On the last couple of suggested sites I looked at this would require 100 seperate operations to achieve. It's just not dynamic and smart enough.

Its getting late so I know my brain is tired, but I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by your example? Can you give a real life example of a product and what it is your trying to do with it?

You can batch upload new products via csv with no problem on IR and can also duplicate products with variations so would only set up a product in its entirety once, after that it would be altering whatever minor changes/additions that product has.

The batch upload of products can also create the product categories or subcategories, something I find extremely useful.

movietub · Nov 11, 2008

Sure here's a clearer example:

Ok I'm selling a range of tents called 'baracudas' There are 10 different versions of the tent. Therfore 10 seperate products. I could add a single product with selectable size/colour options but I want 10 seperate products to appear in google base listed exactly in the same format as I believe would be customers would search for them

To each tent I want to add 10 related products; gas stove, sleeping bag, sheep harness, handling gloves, airbeds etc...

To do this on what seems the majority of shops I have to open up each product, select 'related product' then browse the first related product 'select', 'confirm' then on to the next one.

Why can't it be as simple as a list of all my products, searchable by typing the first few letters of the products name, and I select the 10 I want in one go. Then 'copy' those related product properties onto the other 9 tents in the range.

It would reduce 100 mini operations into a few click and drag movements. If you want to move 10 loose files into one folder on your windows desktop you don't navigate up and down the folder tree for eachfile do you?

Nov 11, 2008

Ok, but you can do this essentially with Internet Retailer, what you would do is set up tent 1, and in the description you would add the see other related items bit and contextually link to each product - which also has an SEO benefit, add all of your product variations in the variation tab etc. Then once this item is completed you would save the item and go to your list of recenty added products and just click duplicate on the product you want copied, this copies everything in that product listing except for the image, so you just go in add the new product image, change the product code, click save and voila its done, so its really quite quick and easy.

Nov 11, 2008

You can test it out in their demo shop, as its live so you could very easily just add a product and then go duplicate it so that you can see it in real life working.

To be honest I couldn't live without the duplicate function as I have loads of items which have related items such as earrings bracelets etc from sets.

movietub · Nov 11, 2008

Actually maybe I'm being a bit thick, and tired

Would it not be possible for me to build a database that could interperet the shops csv file and make all this possible from the desktop? I'm amazed most hosted solutions don't offer an attached desktop editor for this sort of thing to do just that. Any database program offers a variety of dynamic controls and functions these days, and it could easily output the updated csv file ready for upload again.

Possibly I'm at one of those stages where I'm so frustrated that something I want isnt available I was in danger of missing the glaring opportunity - how hard would it be to develop something exactly like this? must be demand. Such a program could ship with templates to fast edit all the major shops csv formats.

movietub · Nov 11, 2008

boho said:
Ok, but you can do this essentially with Internet Retailer, what you would do is set up tent 1, and in the description you would add the see other related items bit and contextually link to each product - which also has an SEO benefit, add all of your product variations in the variation tab etc. Then once this item is completed you would save the item and go to your list of recenty added products and just click duplicate on the product you want copied, this copies everything in that product listing except for the image, so you just go in add the new product image, change the product code, click save and voila its done, so its really quite quick and easy.

I understand what your saying, and that is a quick enough way of doing what I said. Problem is 2 weeks later I want to remove one of the related products as its been discontinued and then add another 3. At that point I would either have to delete the original main products and start again or go through each one and just change the related products in each one that had altered.

With thousands of products thats just not veasible - especially given the huge potential for increasing sales that comes from always having the right related products displayed. Finding the most efficient solution at this point would save untold time and mone later on.

Nov 11, 2008

Apologies for multiple posts but I'm about to retire for the evening, just wanted to give you a very basic example...only a simple one as I hadn't the energy to look for a complex example, but if you take for instance http://www.bohofashionjewellery.co.uk/catalog/bfj_prd_urban_chic_necklace.aspx?pid=3335 the necklace has a matching bracelet and vice versa, the products contextually link to one another.

Re the csv file, it may well be possible, but its what impact it has elsewhere in terms of stockfiles etc...however I can absolutely guarantee that if its doable that Dave could turn his hand to it as he's a master with db's so I really would suggest a pm as I would hate to think that you missed an opportunity in not speaking to a really good host with a great solution.

movietub · Nov 11, 2008

boho said:
Apologies for multiple posts but I'm about to retire for the evening, just wanted to give you a very basic example...only a simple one as I hadn't the energy to look for a complex example, but if you take for instance http://www.bohofashionjewellery.co.uk/catalog/bfj_prd_urban_chic_necklace.aspx?pid=3335 the necklace has a matching bracelet and vice versa, the products contextually link to one another.

Re the csv file, it may well be possible, but its what impact it has elsewhere in terms of stockfiles etc...however I can absolutely guarantee that if its doable that Dave could turn his hand to it as he's a master with db's so I really would suggest a pm as I would hate to think that you missed an opportunity in not speaking to a really good host with a great solution.

By 'contextually link' do you mean that if I changed the bracelet for something different, say, a frog, but used the same contextual tag that the link would automatically renew? And if I added another type of necklace with the same context tags (for example - group 3) it would attract the same?

That would be clever stuff. So all tents and stoves could be 'group 3' and would automatically link?

or still completely wrong?!

I will PM Dave and thanks for the contact

awebapart.com · Nov 11, 2008

Shipping calculation is a notorious area which can easily get far too complicated for most systems, especially if you have different product types, different preferred couriers depending on basket content, etc.

I doubt you are going to find every particular thing you want in an off-the-shelf solution, in which case you either need to find the best match, make compromises, and work around it, or alternatively go for a semi-bespoke or perhaps even a fully-bespoke solution. Going semi-bespoke where serious development is required (not just skinning a design), or fully-bespoke (which is even more serious development) can be risky and expensive, since you are relying on a supplier to create something that currently does not exist, you should be thinking about paying a few hundred for the legal client-supplier contract before any work starts or deposits are handed over.

movietub said:
If I'm honest all these seem to suffer from the same problem. - To alter several products at once relies on clicking through several times. There are no batch options.

Zencart has some useful interactive batch options in assigning product attributes (so it might also have batch related product features too), interactive as in doing batch operations within the system, rather than exporting, doing it externally, then reimporting. Paceretail offers a hosted managed ecommerce service based on their improved version of Zencart so it might be worth having a look there (a demo is available).

movietub said:
And http://demo.thisispearl.com/admin which has some increadible features, seriously everything you could realistically need but no drag and drop!

Drag and drop within an ecommerce admin system isn't a 'must have' feature, it is a 'nice to have' feature. Do you offer 'drag and drop' to your shop customers, so they can drag a product into the basket? I doubt it, but without it, your shop still manages to get the job done. The same would be true for an admin system. If pearl has everything you need apart from drag and drop, I suggest you go with Pearl, and ask them to add drag and drop in the future.

If it is not really drag and drop which is the issue, but the general speed of your admin interface, then either consider:

1. A system which provides a Windows-based rather than a web-based admin application, like Actinic or Unitrader

2. Getting a better web-based ecommerce system with faster hosting, which is designed to handle the number of products you have. A lot of ecommerce systems will say they support unlimited products, but the admin system can slow you down once your shop grows just because it doesn't have the right features for managing lots of products, and I can understand why EKM might be problematic. If you go for a web-based admin system, make sure it is on quality fast hosting as this makes a difference too.

awebapart.com · Nov 11, 2008

movietub said:
What I don't understand is eccomerce is a massive growing market so how come no-one is investing in a 'best of all' solution to bring to people like me?

There is no "best of all" ecommerce solution, what you have described is merely what is best for you. The motor industry has been around a lot longer than the ecommerce industry, but there is no "best of all" car. I'm not even sure, without looking in more detail, that all the new features you have described would improve a system, some might have a detrimental effect or open up another can of worms if they are not thought through (be careful what you ask for - you might get it).

movietub · Nov 11, 2008

awebapart.com said:
There is no "best of all" ecommerce solution, what you have described is merely what is best for you. The motor industry has been around a lot longer than the ecommerce industry, but there is no "best of all" car. I'm not even sure, without looking in more detail, that all the new features you have described would improve a system, some might have a detrimental effect or open up another can of worms if they are not thought through (be careful what you ask for - you might get it).

Most cars look different and are strong/weak in their own areas. But control interface is the same. Steering wheel, throttle on the right etc - because trial and error has shown this is the best way.

No doubt a drag and drop interface takes more development than form based control of the database but ultimately drag and drop has proved to be the fastest method of moving files within folders - so I can't understand how the same isnt recognised as the fastes way to move products between catagories. Its something all OS's have settled on.

I'm also not sure that offering my customers drag and drop woul enhance there experience, they click buy when they discover the products they want - it would only save them time if they happened to discover several products on a single page and wanted to buy them all in a hurry!

I'm going to take a look at Actinic and Unitrader, I like the sound of windows based site management. It's not that my current online solution is slow because 'running online' I just think that online apps have some catching upto do before they are as powerful as offline varients... we shall see!

After an hours playing around again...

awebapart.com · Nov 11, 2008

movietub said:
ultimately drag and drop has proved to be the fastest method of moving files within folders - so I can't understand how the same isnt recognised as the fastes way to move products between catagories. Its something all OS's have settled on.

Unfortunately 'drag and drop' can sometimes be one of those mis-used terms that people naturally assume mean "easier to use interface", when this is not always the case. Drag and drop does have its own issues and pitfalls too, e.g. dragging things by mistake and losing them, dragging from one area to another area not on screen/page, multiple selections where the individual selections are not displayed in one area, rsi for too much mouse use, and it should not be overused in place of more appropriate user interface methods (e.g. multi-selecting in a list, rather than dragging the selections from a list, using search methods to narrow down rather than select and drag). Sometimes with user interface design, drag and drop is provided as the easy way of performing a simple task for 'novice users', whilst at the same time a non drag and drop interface is provided for 'power users' who want to do something more complex or have more control.

movietub said:
Most cars look different and are strong/weak in their own areas. But control interface is the same. Steering wheel, throttle on the right etc - because trial and error has shown this is the best way.

Most decent ecommerce systems have the same basic stuff too, the devil is in the detail. Even Homer's dream car had the basic stuff.

iboxsecurity · Nov 11, 2008

we had a few customers come to us after using EKM and getting VERY fed up.

movietub · Nov 11, 2008

I think I've put the focus to much on drag and drop. Whats really important is cutting down on the wasted time, wasted clicks. Most people want to add more than a single related product.

therfore the normal select -> add -> select another -> add could easily be replaced with a list of all products, where all I have to do is type the first few digits of the name of the product to bring it up top, tick the box next to it and then do the same for the next one. Once all selected from the list hit add and job done.

Drag and drop was more about being able to move, say, 10 products out of 20 from one catagory to another without individually opening the properties of each product and selecting a new catagory from a drop down selection for each one.

movietub · Nov 11, 2008

Finally!

I'm going to go with Actinic I think. I have downloaded their trial software and it does absolutely everything I originally asked for.

On top of that I'm very impressed with the level of design control it allows for the shop front itself. Not only does this make it easy for anyone to personalise but the dreamweaver integration means that the skys the limit! Anyone who has tried to overly customise an EKM shop will be aware of the myriad problems faced.

And yes - Actinic has multiple selections, drag and drop - works pretty much like any other professional windows app.

Thanks to everyone for their help, I expect to speak to actinic tomorrow and make a purchase of their 'catalogue' version.

Cheers!

Flying Hippy · Nov 11, 2008

Hi,

I tried actinc before EKM on their free trial and found it very slow, same as erol.

Try doing a search for actinc shops that are live on google, when you goto them they run slow, something to consider also as people can be put off by sites that run slow.

movietub · Nov 11, 2008

Flying Hippy said:
Hi,

I tried actinc before EKM on their free trial and found it very slow, same as erol.

Try doing a search for actinc shops that are live on google, when you goto them they run slow, something to consider also as people can be put off by sites that run slow.

Don't do this to me now! Any examples?

Flying Hippy · Nov 11, 2008

will try looking for some its been about 4 months since I last check and i am running on 16mb broadband.

Thier software did look good but most for some strange reason had a lot of them used frames to make it compatiable with older browsers but web is moving in new directions.

Try searching for Powered by Actinic or thier competion powered by erol both are 2 different systems which have a block feel to them. Unless you spends loads of money getting the design feel right with them £1000+ I dont think it will be worth what you require.

DuaneJackson · Nov 11, 2008

I don't know too much about this whole market, but I'd have though moving from EKM to Actinic would be a step back rather than forward.

movietub · Nov 11, 2008

DuaneJackson said:
I don't know too much about this whole market, but I'd have though moving from EKM to Actinic would be a step back rather than forward.

why is that? The actinic Sites I have seen seem more diverse than the EKM sites and there is certainly a functionality benefit in Actinic's favour.

Do people struggle with Actinic in another way you think?

DuaneJackson · Nov 11, 2008

To be fair, it's been a good few years since I've even looked at actinic. So my opinions on this subject are worthless. I'll just quietly butt out now!

movietub · Nov 11, 2008

DuaneJackson said:
To be fair, it's been a good few years since I've even looked at actinic. So my opinions on this subject are worthless. I'll just quietly butt out now!

Very honest! All views appreciated of course

awebapart.com · Nov 11, 2008

The website created by Actinic Catalog is a database-less system, the only hosting requirements are CGI-bin and Perl.

In some ways the removal of a database can improve performance, for small browse only shops. But for larger shops the lack of a database could be an issue, especially for search or ordering results functions.

Some slow performing Actinic sites may be simply caused by slow hosting, since the hosting requirements are less, some shop owners might choose very cheap hosting plans which will affect performance.

The lack of a database might raise other issues, like how do you get real time advanced stock control from Actinic and how do you manage your customers with CRM with Actinic and online accounts they can login to.

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