Returns Rant - relevant to clothes sales only!

deniser · Nov 4, 2008

Returns are driving me crazy! Ok so it's a clothing site and customers are used to the "I can't choose and can't be bothered to check the measurements so send me one of everything and I'll choose when I get them and send the rest back" mentality promoted by the big catalogues but it is definitely getting worse.

It's not just the quantity of predictable returns but the fact that some are way outside our 14 and the DSR's 7 working day return period, some up to 6 months or a year later.

I have always bent over backwards to be helpful to customers but having spent the whole day so far processing returns including parcels with no paperwork trying to identify who they belong to, replacements to foreign countries at high postage rates, clothes with tags missing, parcels returned by the Royal Mail for not having been collected, cancelled weddings and jilted brides (isn't that what wedding insurance is for?), absent flower girls, neurotic brides etc. I am fed up. And the bigger the parcel, the more it costs to subsidise my fixed price postage, insurance, packing materials - which is fine for a big sale but it has the opposite effect as it is more likely to be returned

My returns policy is clearly set out on the website and in the order confirmation email. But no-one takes the slightest bit of notice. I want to enforce things a little more strictly. Would a credit note rather than a refund be a sensible way forward for returns way outside the returns period? Or do I just say no you are too late?

What do other people do?

Rant over.......sorry!

sysops · Nov 4, 2008

deniser said:
My returns policy is clearly set out on the website and in the order confirmation email. But no-one takes the slightest bit of notice. I want to enforce things a little more strictly. Would a credit note rather than a refund be a sensible way forward for returns way outside the returns period? Or do I just say no you are too late?

Returns are definitely a big problem, and you need to have a fair but robust returns procedure in place in order to minimise the business cost.

First, your returns page needs to clearly explain that they must contact you before returning anything, and that all returns must have an RMA number or they will not be accepted. You can issue this in your emails, and require that it is clearly marked on the outside of the returned parcel.

Second, don't accept returns which are way outside of your returns period. A month to 6 weeks is more than enough - anything beyond this, just say sorry. Yes, this will lost you a few customers, but it will lose you exactly the kind of customers you want to lose.

What % of your orders generate a return? Measuring this is important, because it allows you to fine-tune your processes to reduce the %.

SillyJokes · Nov 4, 2008

The post above seems spot on - get that returns number generated. Then you can filter out the mickey takers.

Maybe take the time to contact a customer who has ordered one of each size to try and get the right size to her.

Is it possible you are generating some of these returns yourself by not having sufficient information on the website about your products? Making sure your descriptions are complete will have a good impact.

I understand that some clothing sellers have a 30% returns rate - how does that measure against what you get?

Lastly, in the wedding market you will have to get used to all the hassle that goes with it. We sell hen night stuff and have really quite a high return rate for cancelled hen nights, people not coming on hen night and generally over ordering with the intent to send it back. Much higher than for similar items going out to a regular party.

deniser · Nov 4, 2008

sysops said:
First, your returns page needs to clearly explain that they must contact you before returning anything, and that all returns must have an RMA number or they will not be accepted. You can issue this in your emails, and require that it is clearly marked on the outside of the returned parcel.

Second, don't accept returns which are way outside of your returns period. A month to 6 weeks is more than enough - anything beyond this, just say sorry. Yes, this will lost you a few customers, but it will lose you exactly the kind of customers you want to lose.

What % of your orders generate a return? Measuring this is important, because it allows you to fine-tune your processes to reduce the %.

Yes it does say they must contact us -some do but others don't. Most just either can't or won't read any kind of instructions.

I am actually thinking of stopping this so that they don't inadvertantly (sp?) "cancel in writing" under the DSR so that I don't have to refund their postage costs.

I am having some new returns forms printed which they have to fill in to accompany any return which I hope will help from the admin point of view.

I think I will impose a 2 months cut off date - even though officially it's 14 days - after which they can have a credit note - I suppose I can blame it on the banking system - Paypal for instance does have a 2 month limit for refunds.

Genuine returns are very low - because I go to great lengths to provide detailed product and sizing information on my site - and because I query anything in an order which looks wrong to me before sending out the goods (many people don't know the difference between white and ivory for example and think they can mix the two colours) or order mismatched sizes.

The problem is that people are treating online shopping more and more as a visit to the changing room with an armful of clothes rather than a conscious decision to buy an item. This is so different to the early years when people were used to the Ebay way of doing things (before it became deluged by professional sellers) and regarded all internet sales as final.

I also think that some people buy my stuff just to have their children's photos taken - and then send it back.

I have thought about having an order limit for new customers but not sure how this would go down. I do have some high spending regular customers so can't apply it across the board. Or maybe two different postage prices for orders under and over a certain amount?

It's difficult.

KidsBeeHappy · Nov 4, 2008

You don't have to incurr the costs of the returns. If you ask customers to pay for their own return postage i'm sure that will cut down on it a little.

sysops · Nov 4, 2008

deniser said:
Yes it does say they must contact us -some do but others don't. Most just either can't or won't read any kind of instructions.

Sounds familiar

deniser said:
I think I will impose a 2 months cut off date - even though officially it's 14 days - after which they can have a credit note - I suppose I can blame it on the banking system - Paypal for instance does have a 2 month limit for refunds.

I really think this is over-generous - I'd say 2 months then no returns at all is reasonable.

deniser said:
I also think that some people buy my stuff just to have their children's photos taken - and then send it back.

Lol. Shouldn't laugh, but that is funny...

deniser said:
I have thought about having an order limit for new customers but not sure how this would go down. I do have some high spending regular customers so can't apply it across the board. Or maybe two different postage prices for orders under and over a certain amount?

I don't think this approach is a good one, since it will hurt your average order value. I'd work on it from the other end.

deniser · Nov 4, 2008

SillyJokes said:
The post above seems spot on - get that returns number generated. Then you can filter out the mickey takers.

Maybe take the time to contact a customer who has ordered one of each size to try and get the right size to her.

Is it possible you are generating some of these returns yourself by not having sufficient information on the website about your products? Making sure your descriptions are complete will have a good impact.

I understand that some clothing sellers have a 30% returns rate - how does that measure against what you get?

Lastly, in the wedding market you will have to get used to all the hassle that goes with it. We sell hen night stuff and have really quite a high return rate for cancelled hen nights, people not coming on hen night and generally over ordering with the intent to send it back. Much higher than for similar items going out to a regular party.

I do often contact customers to say - you're obviously confused about what to choose, can I help you - which tends to work well in limiting the stuff going out. But it's those indecisive people who send stuff back as well.

I don't think there is a website with as much information about the products as ours - but people just don't seem to be bothered to read it. For example, there's a huge warning about one brand on the site on every product page saying "This item comes up small, please buy a size up" and they still buy the same size as the other things in their shopping basket.

Our returns rate is about 10% - but most of that is on the wedding stuff as you quite rightly point out - and mostly because:

a. brides can't make up their minds
b. no-one understands that not all 4 year old children are the same size and that children's clothes are fitted by height, not age
c. or they do understand b. but won't take the trouble to find out the child's height.

deniser · Nov 4, 2008

Boxby said:
You don't have to incurr the costs of the returns. If you ask customers to pay for their own return postage i'm sure that will cut down on it a little.

I do that already - I'm sure the returns rate would be much higher if I didn't.

deniser · Nov 4, 2008

sysops said:
Lol. Shouldn't laugh, but that is funny...

You can just picture baby in the photographic studio with mum changing the outfit between each shot!

gibby · Nov 4, 2008

I do sympathize with you as we have a similar thing with shoes.

We did find the same awkward customers were taking they mickey so we put a stop to it & it hasn't hurt sales at all but gives us much more time to focus on the important parts of the biz.

For us customer must inform us within 14 days if they want to return something. They have to pay their own postage with recorded delivery to return unwanted items as this protects them if the good old PO lose it.

We did find a few customers would save up the returns & send them back in bulk so we made a rule that anything that came back after 30 days of telling us they wanted to return it, would be given credit only.

we do encourage customers to order multiple sizes so that they keep at least on of the items & we are happy to take the others back but again we state the goods & packaging have to be in good condition.

All returns must have a returns ref, they must notify us & we do include notes on how to return the goods on the website & as a note with the goods.

10% is about right for us and we are flexible with customers over the rules - except those that mess us around.

A classic example was a lady who ordered some shoes, asked to return them as they didnt fit & then decided she didnt like them when the new ones arrived.
She sent them back with no notes or returns ref & then got on the phone demanding the refund was done while she was on the phone.
She didint know her order number etc and we didnt rush to sort the problem.

With your international orders I would insist if they return goods for an exchange, that they include the courier costs for the postage back out.
It can really hurt you paying int courier costs & we dont get int returns at all.

hope that helps

G

gibby · Nov 4, 2008

You could also try sizing guides

G

deniser · Nov 5, 2008

gibby said:
You could also try sizing guides

G

All the information is there - they just can't be bothered with it.

KidsBeeHappy · Nov 5, 2008

deniser said:
All the information is there - they just can't be bothered with it.

I know that problem - that's my big problem, getting people to read and understand. I think you have to make the assumption that people won't and don't want read anything - so you've really got to spell it out for them.

I think I am going to use pop up boxes or something similar on my site. Can you do anything like that? For example if people order 2 sizes of the same product can you get a pop-up or re-direct that takes them through to the sizing guide?

deniser · Nov 5, 2008

Boxby said:
I know that problem - that's my big problem, getting people to read and understand. I think you have to make the assumption that people won't and don't want read anything - so you've really got to spell it out for them.

I think I am going to use pop up boxes or something similar on my site. Can you do anything like that? For example if people order 2 sizes of the same product can you get a pop-up or re-direct that takes them through to the sizing guide?

It doesn't need to pop up - it's right there on the page and unmissable.

But thanks for the suggestion.

My other problem is that my web designer is 6 months behind with my work so getting any new ideas implemented is tortuous!

bobgentry · Nov 5, 2008

Our Biggest problem is customers who order a fancy dress costume where it for the occasion then send it back with the tags either removed or clumsily put back on saying it did not fit.
How should we deal with this problem?

Nov 5, 2008

bobgentry said:
Our Biggest problem is customers who order a fancy dress costume where it for the occasion then send it back with the tags either removed or clumsily put back on saying it did not fit.
How should we deal with this problem?

You could try capturing the date of the event during the order process somewhere and then add something to your terms and conditions excluding returns which fall after the event date - I see that used quite a lot in wedding shops - I dont allow returns on wedding items myself that are returned after the event, it has to come back within 7 days with all tags attached in its original packaging and a valid RMA...you have to be strict unfortunately.

gibby · Nov 6, 2008

Goods have to be returned in a re sellable sate, if tags are missing you can refuse to accept them.
I have come across a few money saving expert sites promoting that they wear clothes once & return them. I call em parasites.

Make sure you have this stated in your included return notes & on your sites.
when they email you to ask for a return ref make sure this info is linked to.

You are well within the law to do this.
Do some web searches as a mate found he was on a list of easy sites to return goods to.

G

bobgentry · Nov 6, 2008

Thanks for all the good tips.
We have been getting stricter with our returns. I especially like the event date idea.
I'm going to add this to our terms and conditions and find a way to capture the information at sale time.

First in Retail · Nov 6, 2008

gibby said:
Goods have to be returned in a re sellable sate, if tags are missing you can refuse to accept them.
I have come across a few money saving expert sites promoting that they wear clothes once & return them. I call em parasites.

Make sure you have this stated in your included return notes & on your sites.
when they email you to ask for a return ref make sure this info is linked to.

You are well within the law to do this.
Do some web searches as a mate found he was on a list of easy sites to return goods to.

G

Legally this in not correct ! if a customer cancels there order under under the DSR rules then you have 30 days to return there money REGARDLESS of even getting the goods back let alone saleble condition.

I have had this with IKEA who refused to payup because the packaging was ripped, how on gods earth do you open a glued together cardboard box. Anyway I won.

I don't agree with it, just saying your statment is incorrect.

deniser · Nov 6, 2008

First in Retail said:
Legally this in not correct ! if a customer cancels there order under under the DSR rules then you have 30 days to return there money REGARDLESS of even getting the goods back let alone saleble condition.

But they have to take reasonable care of the goods - which probably means not taking off the tags and certainly not wearing them.

First in Retail · Nov 6, 2008

You miss my point:

Legally you are stuffed, your recourse of action regarding care of the product or not seeing it again is NOT part of the refund process, and has to be treated completley seperate.

So for example:

Goods returned without tags and smelling of BO, "legally", you have to issue a refund for the full amount including outbound delivery, and then start proceedings to recover the cost of cleaning, re-tagging, whatever.

This situation is not common, but if you get a customer who knows what they are doing then you have a fight on your hands, remember if they pay by credit card, the company WILL follow the letter of the law regardless of how unfair or unreasonable that is.

again I am not advocating it, but some info on forums can be wrong and can get you in bother.

sysops · Nov 6, 2008

First in Retail said:
You miss my point:

Legally you are stuffed, your recourse of action regarding care of the product or not seeing it again is NOT part of the refund process, and has to be treated completley seperate.

You keep spouting this nonsense, but you are incorrect.

The fact is that retailers should (and usually do) stick to their guns when it comes to customers taking the piss (as you did with Ikea). It is then up to the customer to pursue the matter through the small claims court, which most won't.

groovyjon · Nov 6, 2008

We've never bothered with the RMA concept, because I think it's just one other thing for the customer to ignore, not bother with, not understand, etc. As has been said before, customers just do not read info/instructions. For those that do have a RMA procedure, how many come back without the number? And what do you do when it happens?

Regarding postage, one thing that annoys me is even though we state clearly that the customer is responsible for paying return postage, some will always just put it back in the post with our original PPI label on and not pay any postage or just write "return to sender" or something. Yes, our T+C state that we reserve the right to charge their card if they return something with no/insufficient postage, but so far I've not been brave enough to do it. I don't fancy the chargeback letters when the customer complains about the "unauthorised" transaction.

deniser · Nov 6, 2008

First in Retail said:
You miss my point:

Legally you are stuffed, your recourse of action regarding care of the product or not seeing it again is NOT part of the refund process, and has to be treated completley seperate.

So for example:

Goods returned without tags and smelling of BO, "legally", you have to issue a refund for the full amount including outbound delivery, and then start proceedings to recover the cost of cleaning, re-tagging, whatever.

This situation is not common, but if you get a customer who knows what they are doing then you have a fight on your hands, remember if they pay by credit card, the company WILL follow the letter of the law regardless of how unfair or unreasonable that is.

again I am not advocating it, but some info on forums can be wrong and can get you in bother.

I know that but in reality it doesn't happen because consumers don't know about the DSR and even if they did, they are often subtley discouraged from falling within the DSR ( I've noticed a few of these sneaky methods in the big companies' T & C (Sad person that I am, I am always reading these!))

You can apply whatever rules you like to returns which are outside the scope of the DSR - which most are because they fall into one of these 3 categories:

1. Contract not cancelled with 7 working days of receipt
2. contract not cancelled in writing - they phone much more than email
3. They keep at least one item from the order

deniser · Nov 6, 2008

groovyjon said:
Regarding postage, one thing that annoys me is even though we state clearly that the customer is responsible for paying return postage, some will always just put it back in the post with our original PPI label on and not pay any postage or just write "return to sender" or something. Yes, our T+C state that we reserve the right to charge their card if they return something with no/insufficient postage,

That hasn't happened to me but would be a nightmare.

How do you recharge their card when you have to destroy the card details straight away?

sysops · Nov 6, 2008

groovyjon said:
For those that do have a RMA procedure, how many come back without the number?

Very few, I don't have exact figures, but between 5-10%.

groovyjon said:
And what do you do when it happens?

We do process them, but they go to the bottom of the queue. Returns with RMAs get processed the same day, without fail. Those without can take up to a week.

groovyjon · Nov 6, 2008

deniser said:
How do you recharge their card when you have to destroy the card details straight away?

We have a "bill by reference" facility with our payment processor. We don't ever see the card details, but we can issue further transactions against them.

First in Retail · Nov 6, 2008

sysops said:
You keep spouting this nonsense, but you are incorrect.

The fact is that retailers should (and usually do) stick to their guns when it comes to customers taking the piss (as you did with Ikea). It is then up to the customer to pursue the matter through the small claims court, which most won't.

sysop, I have already shown you the error of your ways in the past please lets not start again, you do know the DSR, and clearly have some wierd slant on how it works. I know who would win in a court between me as a customer and you as a retailer !

Clearly I am reading the guide wrong again ! anyone reading this post please read the DSR Guide and make up your own mind, http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf

I am not a legal expert, but clearly the sections from the guide below speak for themselves.

Refunds (Regulation 14)
When do I have to refund a consumers money if they cancel
an order?

3.46

As soon as possible after the consumer cancels, and in any case
within 30 days at the latest. You must refund the consumers money
even if you have not yet collected the goods or had them returned to
you by the consumer. You cannot insist on the goods being received
by you before you make a refund. See also paragraph 3.64.

Can I withhold a refund if a consumer fails to take
reasonable care of the goods?

3.47

No. Other than for the exceptions at paragraph 3.38 the DSRs give
consumers an unconditional right to cancel a contract and legally
oblige you to refund all sums due in relation to the contract as soon
as possible after the consumer cancels, and within a maximum of 30
days. The DSRs do, however, give suppliers a right of action against

consumers for breach of the statutory duty to take reasonable care.

Can I insist that consumers who cancel an order within the
cancellation period return the goods as new or in their
original packaging?

3.58

No. Consumers are under a duty to take reasonable care of the goods
while in their possession as discussed in paragraph 3.44. The DSRs
allow consumers to examine goods they have ordered as they would
in a shop. If that requires opening the packaging and trying out the
goods then they have not breached their duty to take reasonable
care of the goods. In these circumstances you cannot insist that
consumers return the goods as new or in their original packaging.
You may ask consumers to return goods with the original packaging,
but you cannot insist on this. In the case of goods such as earrings
that have hygiene seals, you may require consumers to exercise

reasonable care by not removing the seals when examining them.

First in Retail · Nov 6, 2008

Sysop said "when it comes to customers taking the piss (as you did with Ikea). "

Please tell me HOW! I return an item when it arrives in a brown box glued and stapled together, we open it and find I want to return it (no reason needed) how do we return them.

Please enlighten us as all as to the proceedure in this case, how the hell do you return the item as it arrived ???????, I dont have access to a x-ray machine or an industrial packing machine.

sysops · Nov 6, 2008

First in Retail said:
Sysop said "when it comes to customers taking the piss (as you did with Ikea). "

Please tell me HOW! I return an item when it arrives in a brown box glued and stapled together, we open it and find I want to return it (no reason needed) how do we return them.

Please enlighten us as all as to the proceedure in this case, how the hell do you return the item as it arrived ???????, I dont have access to a x-ray machine or an industrial packing machine.

Look, I don't really enjoy our little conversations, so I don't really want to prolong this one.

You bought something from Ikea having seen it in the catalogue, online or in a shop. You then tore open the box, rendering it unfit for resale.

You say no reason needed - trust me, no retailer in the land will accept that without challenging it for an item that isn't resalable. If it was different from the description/image, fine. If you just changed your mind because you're a bit of an arse, not fine.

gibby · Nov 6, 2008

lots of issues here but what really helped us was an A4 sheet with the delivery

In nice big letters it states that customers must try on shoes on a carpeted area, etc etc
It also states that in order to return goods they must ......................

It works & has cut down false returns dramatically.
As pointed out the legal side is iffy and open to interpretation.

One of the reasons we have this attitude form customers is the way supermarkets allow them to return almost anything any time

G

First in Retail · Nov 6, 2008

sysop, do you actually practice being such a idiot or is it a natural gift you have ?

Do you actually have a store ? It seems that anyone who disagrees with your point of view gets sharp treatment, You clearly are the god of all retail knowledge.

I wonder if your such a gob face to face ?

sysops · Nov 6, 2008

First in Retail said:
Do you actually have a store ? It seems that anyone who disagrees with your point of view gets sharp treatment, You clearly are the god of all retail knowledge.

Erm, no, you're the one who calls himself "first in retail".

First in Retail said:
I wonder if your such a gob face to face ?

Trust me, I'd never mix with someone like you, so you'll never find out.

SillyJokes · Nov 6, 2008

Boys, boys, play nice.

Returns need to be reduced but considering the level of shoplifting in bricks and mortar places I think we get off pretty lightly.

The percentage of customers appearing to take the mickey is quite small, they just anoy you out of all proportion for their bare faced cheek.

It's good to know that ordering at a distance without being able to examine goods you are extremely well protected, long may it last, because without this no one would order online.

First in Retail · Nov 6, 2008

Sysop, never say never!, you don't know who you may bump into one cold dark night.......................

I can picture newspaper now:

Man (I assume) found dead as he walked home from a blind date who never turned up, beated to death with a copy of the DSR which was found strewed about his body

Police know the man and are treating his death as "acceptable"

sysops · Nov 6, 2008

First in Retail said:
Never say never!, you don't know who you may bump into one cold dark night.......................

I can picture newspaper now:

Man (I assume) found dead as he walked home from a blind date who never turned up, beated to death with a copy of the DSR which was found strewed about his body

Police know the man and are treating his death as [/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']"acceptable"[/font]

Erm...

Weirdo...

First in Retail · Nov 6, 2008

Or should I be looking more at having an industrial accident at the "FARM"

ooooohhhhhhh hhhaahahahah ooohohohooh

See you have strated me making halloween noises in the office people think I am going mad, and worse now know I am not working..

Jay08 · Nov 6, 2008

I bought a table from Ikea and ripped the brown packing then realized the table was to small. The packing was no way in the state it came in and wasnt packed same way, but they still took it back without asking questions.

sysops · Nov 6, 2008

Jay08 said:
I bought a table from Ikea and ripped the brown packing then realized the table was to small. The packing was no way in the state it came in and wasnt packed same way, but they still took it back without asking questions.

Had they perhaps quoted the measurements in different, smaller centimetres than the ones on your measuring tape?

deniser · Nov 6, 2008

sysops said:
Erm...

Weirdo...

Quite funny though.....

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