Getting coding done for a site

TomUK · Oct 2, 2008

Basically guys got ripped off by a webdev company who won't send me the source code, they say I only bought the 'license', and they are charging through the roof for any changes.

And basically I want to launch a .com site, which I was hoping to just duplicate the .co.uk site, but as I only own a 'license', I gotta pay the same again for a .com.

So my question is, I've posted my project on guru.com asking for the site to be re-coded, as I own all the gfx/templates etc, just not the code.

I've had a lot of interest at reaosnable prices, but nearly all are from India/saudi arabia etc.

Whats the difference in the actual code between India/UK etc.

I know the downsides are the customer service etc, but once I recieve working code, would someone from the UK/USA be able to read it and edit if I need further tweaks?

dave_n · Oct 3, 2008

if you dont have ftp access to the physical site then you will only be able to retrieve what the browser outputs.
If it's static html then no probs....if its asp/php etc then you may have problems, particularly when it comes to db connectivity etc.
Before you pay for recoding, see if you can retrieve the code

mobyme · Oct 3, 2008

TomUK said:
Whats the difference in the actual code between India/UK etc.

I know the downsides are the customer service etc, but once I recieve working code, would someone from the UK/USA be able to read it and edit if I need further tweaks?

Good or bad code, is good or bad code whether it's written in Britain or India. I think it's fair to say that it is going to depend on what the programming language is and how well it is commented as to how easy it will be to get tweaks done. Sometimes trying to understand the way some code is written is like trying to unravel spaghetti. If the code was only sold to you on license, it is only for use on your original site and copying it could cause you problems further down the road as it will probably call home. If you do deal with a freelancer in Saudi or India make sure that you pay through escrow and only pay the balance when you have the site up and running. We may be able to offer you a competitive option here in the UK if you are interested.

TomUK · Oct 3, 2008

Well what price can you offer for php website? I've been qouted around £800 from India.

Calibre Designs · Oct 3, 2008

Hello Tom.

Could you point us to the website in question?

Quality comes at a price but that guarantees results if you are using a pro.

wood1e2 · Oct 3, 2008

If you only bought a licence, and they are charging through the roof for changes, what are they asking for to buy the source code in full? Or are they not even offering that?

The trouble with cheap or should I say cost effective pricing is that it appears to be good value. When as you have found out you don't actually own the website/coding. Nightmare if you were someone like google, or ebay....

As for £800 for coding...what is involved? what are you looking for?

DavidT · Oct 3, 2008

Just to add to what wood1e2 has said...

There are packages available on a monthly rate but many of these can actually be quite substantial when you don't really own your website and the charges just continue. We do offer a monthly rate to make websites affordable, though this is only 12 months of payments and the website is yours... just hosting needed after that.

Another thing I've noticed lately is the promotion of website packages for a low amount (say a couple of hundred quid)... to draw people in, but then there are quite hefty monthly "hosting" charges associated pushing the real cost of the website up several times over.

As for India, Britain or anywhere else... there are good and bad around and you just have to do what you can to protect yourself (eg. smaller payments and more of them at key stages), and get all the information possible before making a decision and a commitment.

David Toohey
The Accountants Circle
Accountancy & Bookkeeping Forums | Accountant & Bookkeeper Blogs | Company Formations from £21! | Business Start-Up Package

wood1e2 · Oct 3, 2008

I have noticed similar David, have a website for £99, then the client wonders why he is not on Google...the company then offer their SEO package, which is £199!! Just to add your URL to Google!!! Then another £199 for further changes/SEO update?hosting/domain/renewal!!

I know this because I lost out on a brochure website!! Bumped into the guy at a wedding, where he told me about all the additional costs!!! Never mind.

Anyway a cheaper is not so cost effective.....

YEp as for UK/USA/India/outer Mongolia it is all the same, as long as contract is in place, and a total understanding of expectations then no-one can be at fault and you get exactly what you pay or ask for.

quikshop · Oct 3, 2008

Its about intellectual property and understanding what it is you are paying for in the first place.

A hosted service like our own Ecommerce service uses the same code to host and run hundreds of online shops. Each shop owner effectively rents the use of our software in return for our service.

We could have taken the licencing approach in which we sell the software to each shop owner under a licence agreement, perhaps with an annual fee.

With both of the above approaches, the service provider retains ownership of the software, their intellectual property.

It sounds like you wanted the 3rd approach which gives you as the customer outright ownership of the entire product. What is actually written in your contract with them about ownership? Do they have anything in their terms and conditions which states they only sell software under licence?

If not you might have a case of reasonable presumption that the work you paid them to do would be yours. I'd speak to Trading Standards and get their take on it.

mobyme · Oct 3, 2008

wood1e2 said:
YEp as for UK/USA/India/outer Mongolia it is all the same, as long as contract is in place, and a total understanding of expectations then no-one can be at fault and you get exactly what you pay or ask for.

With due respect have you ever tried pursuing anything through the courts in India? What you paid for the coding would soon pale into insignificance going down that path. Take it from somebody who has been there and done that on a point of principle.

DavidT · Oct 3, 2008

Mind you... our website was first outsourced (unsuccessfully) to be developed in India and I had no difficulties getting an instant refund on the deposit that had been paid. Some people actually do care about their reputation and aren't out to do anything intentially wrong.

I've also provided accountancy services in the past to UK companies, and had no success at all in recovering the debt due.

Of course, taking legal routes may be more difficult - hence just a need to arrange something that reduces the risk for you (such as small and regular progress payments, or use of an escrow service).

David Toohey
The Accountants Circle
Accountancy & Bookkeeping Forums | Accountant & Bookkeeper Blogs | Company Formations from £21! | Business Start-Up Package

awebapart.com · Oct 3, 2008

TomUK said:
got ripped off by a webdev company who won't send me the source code, they say I only bought the 'license', and they are charging through the roof for any changes

They probably do own the license. This will depend on either your supplier's licence or terms and conditions if they supplied you with their off-the-shelf service/system, or if the site was custom developed, fully or semi-bespoke, then the terms of your client-supplier contract (with semi-bespoke builds, i.e. partially based on existing software, there would be a bit of both).

TomUK said:
And basically I want to launch a .com site, which I was hoping to just duplicate the .co.uk site

Why would you want a duplicate of the .co.uk site on a .com domain? You would get penalised in the search engines for duplicate content.

TomUK said:
Whats the difference in the actual code between India/UK etc.

Client-supplier contracts and protecting yourself is the main issue. Once you get down to the nitty gritty of contracts, contracts have to be made according to the laws of a particular country, so it is a lot easier to protect yourself if the client and the supplier are in the same country (are you really going to travel over to India to take an Indian supplier to court if they mess you around?).

Deleted member 27344 · Oct 3, 2008

You can get cheap and professional in England as well, you just need to know where to look.
Our website rental packages are extremely popular and you own the code which therefore means you can move everything elsewhere if required.

TomUK · Oct 3, 2008

When we first got our website done, I thought I was getting the source code, the first time I was told I had only bought a license (for 1.5k at that!!) was when I asked for the source.

Anyway my website is www.safeguardclothing.co.uk and I own/have all the templates/gfx/styling, but want the whole back-end re-coding CMS and all.

I'm happy to take quotes from UK guys.

Is it safe outsourcing to India?

n7 Studios · Oct 3, 2008

What changes did you want doing to the current web site, and how much were they quoting?

DuaneJackson · Oct 3, 2008

TomUK said:
Is it safe outsourcing to India?

It is, but as with in the UK, there are good and bad suppliers.

wood1e2 · Oct 3, 2008

TomUK said:
When we first got our website done, I thought I was getting the source code, the first time I was told I had only bought a license (for 1.5k at that!!) was when I asked for the source.

Anyway my website is www.safeguardclothing.co.uk and I own/have all the templates/gfx/styling, but want the whole back-end re-coding CMS and all.

I'm happy to take quotes from UK guys.

Is it safe outsourcing to India?

What do you need specifically? Why do you want a .co.uk website?

cmcp · Oct 3, 2008

I outsource a fair bit of work to India, and I have to admit about 40% of it runs over schedule, with at least a couple of developers never getting back to me.

If you can build a trusting relationship through elance or a similar site, it is good to stay with a dev you trust.

I've found a couple in the past who have been good for a while then tail off. You find this happens. In my experience the guys were working from home to make extra cash, then got new full time jobs or bigger projects.

Try and find out about the companies and if they're a dedicated company. A lot of the characters you get on there are bedroom bandits, it's like the wild west some of the business practice that goes on.

Bottom line is you'll get what you pay for. If you pick the cheapest offer on a huge ecommerce project then you're not going to get a professional service.

I'd put this down to a lesson in doing business. The way your web developer works is the same way we work - in essence they are offering a hosted service. Always get these sorts of details before going out to get someone to "do you a website".

cmcp · Oct 3, 2008

wood1e2 said:
What do you need specifically? Why do you want a .co.uk website?

I think the gripe here is that the user was unaware he wouldn't own the source code, and is having to pay for any changes.

Something that should've been cleared up beforehand, but still pretty annoying if it's unexpected.

(Eg, I once managed a project and the dev company charged on a time and materials basis, at £90 ph. So for little changes, like to change one line of text to the colour red and bold we'd be billed anywhere from £50 - £100.)

I think these are the sorts of charges web companies can get away with in medium - enterprise size business.

webworxindia · Oct 3, 2008

Its completely safe to outsource to India. While Outsourcing keep these things in Mind

1. You can reach to them in your local timings
2. They have good experience.
3. See if they are genuine or not and most importantly their work.
4. Make sure that you are going to get the required once the work is over.

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