How awful one can be!!

Printing Deals · Jun 23, 2008

My wife stayed overnight in a hospital antenatal ward while ago and I was with her, where I witnessed a heartbreaking and emotional scenes, which I want to share with you.

There was a very old lady, barely able to walk crying most of the time, I thought might be in unbearable pain but things starting to get clear as time passed. She was going towards ward exit door with her stuff packed in a suitcase again and again as she wanted to leave, but staff didnt let her, even they locked the door from inside and she sat beside the door with her suitcase. I was clearly hearing her cry, she wanted to go home. About 11 at night staff called her daughter and son to come because old lady just tried to jump from window to escape!! They came sat with her for a while, and believe you me, she was so happy with them, almost impossible to imagine its the same lady just short while ago, but then they decided to leave after an hour, she wasnt let them go, she starts crying again and begged them to take with her, she wanted to go back HOME and it was literally begging. Then both children decided to skip one by one, here goes son and daughter kept mum busy in talks, after few minutes, daughter told clearly to her mum that she cant take her with home as she dont have space for another person and she left. Old lady spent whole night crying sitting on her chair with suitcase beside her.

We came back home next morning, dont know what happened to that lady, maybe she is still waiting for her kids. But this whole episode shows how inhuman one can be in treating their parents. I know a very aged couple waiting to see their children from last 12 years, who lives in same city, but they never came, not even on Christmas. I am trying to figure out the reason, today people loves their kids so much, but why they leave their parents to die when they gets old? Isnt same as you leave your 2 years old to die? Is it something we say, what goes around comes around?

Cornish Steve · Jun 23, 2008

Very sad, and it reveals two fundamental problems:

1) The lack of family bonds. It's a real shame that we've lost the concept of extended family. What with the increasing divorce rate, even the atomic family is splintering at an alarming rate. This has significant implications when people get older. How many families nurse ongoing grudges? Frankly, we have a hard time in Britain because if we visit some people, that might upset others. I'm very grateful that my own six children are committed to each other and to us and the bonds seem strong. I hope it stays that way.

2) A healthcare system that stinks. How dare a hospital keep someone against their will! Who do they think they are? If someone wants to leave, they must be allowed to leave. We faced this when my wife had our second child in the Midlands. There was no good reason for her to stay in hospital for three days, but doctors are allowed to behave like God and they can legally keep you there. That is scary. They are providing a service (National Health Service), not controlling our lives.

How I long for the day when we realise that individuals and families are the keys to society, not government and bureaucracies. We are living, breathing, creative individuals who should control our own destiny, not cogs in a machine or a number in a spreadsheet. The latter idea comes from the discredited communist/atheist regimes of the last century.

Tim R-T-C · Jun 23, 2008

Hmmm.... my partner worked in a care home for a while and you have to remember that there are two sides to every story.

Often the families simply did not have space for their elderly relative at home, living in a small house on a basic income, trying to house someone else would be very difficult. Not to mention the constant care that she might well require - very difficult if the people in the house both work.

Another factor that often came up was that simply the parents had been awful to their children down the years, kicking them out of the house at 16 for example without a penny, and although the children had made an effort to come back and visit their parent at the care home, they would not want to have to live with that parent again.

Tim R-T-C · Jun 23, 2008

Cornish Steve said:
2) A healthcare system that stinks. How dare a hospital keep someone against their will! Who do they think they are? If someone wants to leave, they must be allowed to leave.

Very high and mighty. So where was this woman, who might well have been suffering dementia, going to go - were they going to let her wander out on the streets, or foist her on a family who cannot or will not look after her?

Cornish Steve · Jun 23, 2008

Tim R-T-C said:
Often the families simply did not have space for their elderly relative at home, living in a small house on a basic income, trying to house someone else would be very difficult. Not to mention the constant care that she might well require - very difficult if the people in the house both work.

True, but those parents sacrificed to raise those children. Isn't there are moral duty to sacrifice something back?

Tim R-T-C said:
Another factor that often came up was that simply the parents had been awful to their children down the years, kicking them out of the house at 16 for example without a penny, and although the children had made an effort to come back and visit their parent at the care home, they would not want to have to live with that parent again.

True. One of the problems is that we've given certain ages a sense of magic. At 16, you can/must do this or that. At 18, you can/must be independent, etc. This is nonsense. These ages are arbitrary. A parent must always be fulfilling the role of a parent, no matter how old their children. They should be rocks on which the younger generation can depend and turn to for advice. Nothing changed when our older ones turned 18. Other than the celebration, it was just another day. If they stay at home, they follow the same rules. If they choose to branch out, we'll always be here for them.

A couple of weeks ago, my daughter sent me a Father's Day card. It reads as follows: "When I was a little child, you knew everything about everything. Then when I was a teenager, suddenly you didn't know anything at all. Now, you know everything again." There's an element of truth to that. Sadly, in some cases, parents/children never return to the third stage.

Cornish Steve · Jun 23, 2008

Tim R-T-C said:
Very high and mighty. So where was this woman, who might well have been suffering dementia, going to go - were they going to let her wander out on the streets, or foist her on a family who cannot or will not look after her?

Of course there may be extenuating circumstances, but I know from experience that doctors can be arrogant and often high and mighty (although there are many that, thankfully, are not). They have the power to make decisions without the individual's permission, such as in the example I quoted. This is simply not right. They are providing a service. They don't control us. We should be the ones making decisions, based on their informed advice. For example, if someone wants to go home to die, they must be allowed to. If, on the advice of the doctor, they choose to remain in a hospice, that's fine too. The key is that the informed individual decides, maybe with the support of their families (or maybe not), not the authorities. If that's high and mighty, so be it.

What if the situation had been reversed? What if the woman had wanted to stay but was turned away? Who would look after her then? Are you saying it's unfair for her to be "foisted" on her family? We each have responsibilities in life. Sadly, modern-day culture appears to have thrown out many of those related to family. The state repeats the mantra: "Nanny will look after you." The problem is that, when people get older, nanny doesn't always want to help either.

Jun 23, 2008

Whoha Has no one thought of the possibility that the kids don't like there mother.

As they say you can pick your friends but not your family.

And not having any love for a family member is not a crime,as yet.

You have no idea of a given family members experience with there parents and vice versa.

Never project your own experiences on to another person.

Earl

Cornish Steve · Jun 23, 2008

sirearl said:
Whoha Has no one thought of the possibility that the kids don't like there mother.

As they say you can pick your friends but not your family.

And not having any love for a family member is not a crime,as yet.

You have no idea of a given family members experience with there parents and vice versa.

Never project your own experiences on to another person.

Earl

Everything you say is true, Earl, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the woman wanted to leave and the hospital was prepared to lock her in. Have hospitals suddenly become prisons? If the woman needed treatment and was in such a state, she should not have been in a public ward. Plus, her desires should be taken seriously, not blatantly ignored in the full view of everyone else around.

In a sense, I'm reminded of another incident when we lived in the Midlands. My son was kept overnight for some tests. The hospital staff on that occasion were great, and my wife was able to sleep in a room adjoining the ward. Still, the next morning, my wife was sitting next to our son's bed. In walked a doctor looking at his charts. In the next bed was a young lad with his family beside him. As loud and as uncaring as you like, the doctor told them bluntly that their son had cystic fibrosis, then he walked out. My wife was flabbergasted. He'd done this in a public ward and in earshot of everyone. He didn't care a toss about the emotions of the poor parents. Imagine learning such news in such rude and impersonal circumstances. Sadly, it's all part of the same symptom - that the 'system' doesn't consider the rights and the sensitivities of individuals.

It's such a shame because so many dedicated people work for the health service. Many doctors are very caring, indeed maybe too attached to their patients, but the system breeds arrogance and a lack of concern despite these many selfless people. Whenever there are monopolies and a lack of competition, such attitudes prevail.

The Instructor · Jun 23, 2008

Unfortunately my Mum died in 2006, so she obviously is unable to look after Nan. Auntie Lynn, (Mums sister) a respectable special needs teacher in Leicester, simply does not have the room, as she lives in a old Victorian school house 2up, 2 down coupled with that Nan's condition means the only suitable place for her is at the Old Peoples Care Home in her village...
Nan has dementia brought on by the Parkinson's that she also has…..also she needs to be watched as she keeps trying to get up….."The mind is willing and the body unable" …..And so on….
So you see, Nan really is better off in the home…..and she has put on a bit of weight……..the nurses say she eats really well……

The truth is ……although I wouldn't let her see me cry… it would be selfish of me not to go and see her because it breaks my heart.

The fact is though….sometimes old folk are better off in a home.

Printing Deals · Jun 23, 2008

whatever anyone's opinion is, the fact is that society who don't respects and cares their elders lives miserably.

I would better off sleeping on the road than see a single tear in my parents eye, no matter how bad they treated me in my childhood.

We decorate whole bedroom for our newborn, but don't have one small corner in our homes for parents, shame on us!

Cornish Steve · Jun 23, 2008

Most societies in history have demonstrated respect for elders. For sure, many families do still take care of aging parents; nonetheless, the trend in Western society is certainly towards letting someone else take care of them. No matter how we dress it up, that is a rather selfish attitude. As in so many aspects of life, it's abrogating responsibility and relying on the nanny state.

Tim R-T-C · Jun 24, 2008

ahsan said:
I would better off sleeping on the road than see a single tear in my parents eye, no matter how bad they treated me in my childhood.

We decorate whole bedroom for our newborn, but don't have one small corner in our homes for parents, shame on us!

Try explaining that to the couple we saw who's mother (-in-law) had ruined their wedding day decades earlier and done everything she could to destroy their relationship from the day they made. The couple had made the effort to come back and visit her in the home twice a year, only to be met with a torrent of abuse each time. The last thing they need are people judging them for not being 'caring'.

Tim R-T-C · Jun 24, 2008

Cornish Steve said:
Most societies in history have demonstrated respect for elders. For sure, many families do still take care of aging parents; nonetheless, the trend in Western society is certainly towards letting someone else take care of them. No matter how we dress it up, that is a rather selfish attitude. As in so many aspects of life, it's abrogating responsibility and relying on the nanny state.

You forget though that until a few decades ago, the life expectancy was much lower. People can be kept alive now with debilitating conditions that require 24 hour care that previously would have killed them. A family home is not the place to look after someone like that, particularly if the residents are out at work all day - or if there are young children in the house, diseases pass so easily between them that can prove fatal for either. Letting them go to a nursing home allows dedicated 24 hour care and is in my opinion, far more respectful. As for selfish - anyone who would expect their children to give up their lives to care for them is selfish in my opinion. You don't raise children just to be your private nurse.

Interesting that you mention Western Society - the UK is certainly above France where elderly relatives are often completely neglected (look at the number of unclaimed bodies in the morgues during the heatwaves over the last few summers there) and miles above China where older relatives are often pushed out of the family homes. For balance though, India has a very strong attachment to the elderly

Amaury Architectural · Jun 24, 2008

I'm sorry to say it but the health system in this country and our 'family values' have gone to pot. No longer do people give a stuff about 'the elderly', casting them aside as they are deemed surplus to requirements.

I can think of instances over the past few years of world war veterans who fought for this country and who are now treated like crap. There are nursing homes the length and breadth of this country were 'clients' are just a money spinner.

I accept that there are elderly people who cannot look after themselves or have illnesses that require looking after but a lot of those in nursing homes are just dumped by the kids because they become a burden. Arn't you glad that they didn't consider the 'kids' a burden when you where born !! You would have been like the Chinese and just dumped in a bin or gutter somewere.

Many many elderly people go into decline when placed into nursing homes when they don't need to, not as a result of illness but because of neglect by the families and those who are supposed to care.

Our selfish nature wants to look after number one and doesn't give a stuff about those who have done everything for us....

Cornish Steve · Jun 24, 2008

Tim R-T-C said:
You forget though that until a few decades ago, the life expectancy was much lower. People can be kept alive now with debilitating conditions that require 24 hour care that previously would have killed them. A family home is not the place to look after someone like that, particularly if the residents are out at work all day - or if there are young children in the house, diseases pass so easily between them that can prove fatal for either. Letting them go to a nursing home allows dedicated 24 hour care and is in my opinion, far more respectful. As for selfish - anyone who would expect their children to give up their lives to care for them is selfish in my opinion. You don't raise children just to be your private nurse.

You're quite right, and there are many situations like this. As in most things in life, though, there are rules and there are exceptions. Sadly, society can use the exception to justify the rule, and vice versa. I have no idea of the statistics surrounding this - what percentage of old people should be in a home compared to the percentage that could live with, or be cared for, by family.

Tim R-T-C · Jun 24, 2008

Amaury Architectural said:
Many many elderly people go into decline when placed into nursing homes when they don't need to, not as a result of illness but because of neglect by the families and those who are supposed to care.
Our selfish nature wants to look after number one and doesn't give a stuff about those who have done everything for us....

Once again you assume that a nursing home is a bad thing and that support at home is a panacea. Would you want to wash and bathe your elderly parent every night, would you know how to lift them to avoid injury, would you be able to spot illnesses and problems in advance to ensure that they avoid becoming unwell?

As for selfish, I know people who have given up their inheritance and their own savings in order to pay for nursing home treatment for their relative because they thought that it was for the best. Are these people selfish?

Amaury Architectural said:
I can think of instances over the past few years of world war veterans who fought for this country and who are now treated like crap. There are nursing homes the length and breadth of this country were 'clients' are just a money spinner.

Now I will admit that that is true. The boss at the home where my partner worked was clearly just running the home to try and make his fortune and would cut corners and every cost possible. Not to mention that he seemed to think he owned the place (well, he did, but you know what I mean) and would often stride into patient's rooms without knocking, even when they were asleep or being washed.

tourismalgarve · Jun 24, 2008

The fact is, some people are unable to take care of their elderly, for whatever reason. Now im not saying that those reasons are all justified, on the contrary some may indeed just be very selfish.

But people do have their reasons and the fact is without knowing there whole life story you have no right to make any kind of judgement whatsoever as to there actions.

Its fine to get up there on a pedestal and say you should always love your parents, you should always love your children. But you know, some people just cannot for whatever reason, do that.

maria102 · Jun 24, 2008

There are so many sweeping statements and judgements in this post from supposedly intelligent business people that it astounds me! Lots of strong opinions based on such little known facts.

I am living a similar scenario at present. We are trying to move my husbands parents up from the south to north so that they can be nearer to us. My father in law has dementia and my mother in law has alzheimers and has had several strokes.

Initially I wanted them to move in with us in a type of Waltons scenario and everything would be beautiful. However over Christmas I realised that the level of care they require is much more than I realised, my mother in law cannot do anything for herself and my father in laws short term memory is quite dangerous, plus he is insistent that they don't need any care which has led to food poisoning twice for my mother in law, other infections plus falling through and breaking a window where he will not accept that she cannot stand up and so forces her to do things she cannot. The strain was untold over christmas and lead to lots of arguments with my husband where we both see things from different perspectives, and the reality is, how long would we last together when we have been married less than a year, if they lived with us?

We have now found them a beautiful flat in sheltered accomodation in the High Peak district where they will have a live in carer, they have view over the hills and are next to a cricket club and a nursing home for when Christine becomes very advanced. After a lot of heartache this is the best solution all round, my parents in law can live fairly independently with help and we can take them out and visit them regularly with them being so much closer.

I can assure you that both me and my husband are very loving towards them and each other and for the last year we have shed more tears more regularly than ever before whilst we try and sort things out, so I am offended at a lot of your views of tossing old people aside! this is the most important thing we have to plan at the moment and lots of thoughts has gone into it.

Speak to my father in law, and you will get a different story! he cannot remember what has been agreed, cannot remember the food poisioning or the injuries from the glass, cannot remember how much he has shouted at me for interfering when he just wants to be left alone to look after his wife who bears the brunt of everything, and for her own safety is stuck in hospital while we sort out care for their very complex needs.

Oh, and as I side issue, I am extremely stressed and teary and feel like someone is stood on my chest most of the time due to anxiety, but then I suppose talking about me in all this makes me "selfish"

Amaury Architectural · Jun 24, 2008

maria102 said:
There are so many sweeping statements and judgements in this post from supposedly intelligent business people that it astounds me! Lots of strong opinions based on such little known facts.

I am living a similar scenario at present. We are trying to move my husbands parents up from the south to north so that they can be nearer to us. My father in law has dementia and my mother in law has alzheimers and has had several strokes.

Initially I wanted them to move in with us in a type of Waltons scenario and everything would be beautiful. However over Christmas I realised that the level of care they require is much more than I realised, my mother in law cannot do anything for herself and my father in laws short term memory is quite dangerous, plus he is insistent that they don't need any care which has led to food poisoning twice for my mother in law, other infections plus falling through and breaking a window where he will not accept that she cannot stand up and so forces her to do things she cannot. The strain was untold over christmas and lead to lots of arguments with my husband where we both see things from different perspectives, and the reality is, how long would we last together when we have been married less than a year, if they lived with us?

We have now found them a beautiful flat in sheltered accomodation in the High Peak district where they will have a live in carer, they have view over the hills and are next to a cricket club and a nursing home for when Christine becomes very advanced. After a lot of heartache this is the best solution all round, my parents in law can live fairly independently with help and we can take them out and visit them regularly with them being so much closer.

I can assure you that both me and my husband are very loving towards them and each other and for the last year we have shed more tears more regularly than ever before whilst we try and sort things out, so I am offended at a lot of your views of tossing old people aside! this is the most important thing we have to plan at the moment and lots of thoughts has gone into it.

Speak to my father in law, and you will get a different story! he cannot remember what has been agreed, cannot remember the food poisioning or the injuries from the glass, cannot remember how much he has shouted at me for interfering when he just wants to be left alone to look after his wife who bears the brunt of everything, and for her own safety is stuck in hospital while we sort out care for their very complex needs.

Oh, and as I side issue, I am extremely stressed and teary and feel like someone is stood on my chest most of the time due to anxiety, but then I suppose talking about me in all this makes me "selfish"

On the contrary, you have done what a lot of people would not have done. You have dealt with the issue and brought the parents up near to you and done everything you can to ease the situation they and yourselves are in. I applaud you for that

However, the fact remains that many will just place elderly parents in nursing homes as it is the easy option.

I do speak from both experience of having to deal with elderly in-laws and in having many years experience in the health care sectors both private and public.

maria102 · Jun 24, 2008

The point being from the first post is that everyone based their opinion on the lady from the hospital crying etc! No-one knows why she isn't going home with her children, we commonly lie to my parents in law to shield them from the truth, but their version of events would be different, dementia is rife in my mother in laws ward and you will bump into all sorts of people telling you that they have been kidnapped etc. I was speaking to one lady with her bag packed that was saying she was worried that her daughter had no idea she was there etc, and she was crying . I went to the ward sister and her daughter had actually brought her into the hospital. Its a crying shame, and it makes me sad everytime I go to the hospital, but generalisations and lack of facts do not help anyone in a very sad situation.

Cornish Steve · Jun 24, 2008

maria102 said:
I can assure you that both me and my husband are very loving towards them and each other and for the last year we have shed more tears more regularly than ever before whilst we try and sort things out, so I am offended at a lot of your views of tossing old people aside! this is the most important thing we have to plan at the moment and lots of thoughts has gone into it.

Your actions are exactly what loving and caring people should do. Genuinely, you want the best for your in-laws and have sacrificed a lot in terms of time, money, and emotional stress. You are very much on the positive end of the spectrum, and I don't believe any of the previous messages would in any way brand you as 'selfish'. Far from it.

If only everyone had your attitude, but they don't. As a trend, there is less respect for the elderly today than there has been in the past. It's not just adults not wanting to give back to their parents, either; it's also parents not sacrificing as much for their children, so it works all ways. Worst of all, though, is the government poking its nose in and forcing people to do things they don't want to do. It wasn't so long ago that I read a post here from someone who mentioned that a social worker was abusing the system by insisting that an older person purchase things they didn't need and receiving a kick-back from the supplier of those things - even when the family objected strenuously. This is disgusting behaviour that wouldn't happen if we took charge of our situation (like you have) instead of leaving it to the authorities.

So, Maria, I have nothing but admiration for your attitude and your sacrifice. Indeed, you're the model to follow.

Cornish Steve · Jun 24, 2008

maria102 said:
I was speaking to one lady with her bag packed that was saying she was worried that her daughter had no idea she was there etc, and she was crying

Based on the facts offered in the OP, she shouldn't be in a public ward, and they shouldn't be handling the situation by locking her in. Sadly, the system doesn't seem to understand the word 'sensitivity' because it's a monopoly and unduly bureaucratic.

maria102 · Jun 24, 2008

Cornish Steve said:
It wasn't so long ago that I read a post here from someone who mentioned that a social worker was abusing the system by insisting that an older person purchase things they didn't need and receiving a kick-back from the supplier of those things - even when the family objected strenuously. This is disgusting behaviour that wouldn't happen if we took charge of our situation (like you have) instead of leaving it to the authorities..

That post ironically was from me (though I think you have imagined the bit about a kick back from suppliers) - it was more that the social services were covering their backs and then making them pay for it by over-egging the pudding! Which sadly now is nearer the truth, due to my father in laws stubborness, my mother in law has detiorated in hospital and she now needs more care than she did originally....as you can probably guess I am frazzled with stress. I just meant don't judge a man til you walk in his shoes... my father in law really doesn't like me anymore as what he sees a situation which is the result of my meddling, when the reality I am trying to stop my mother in law going into a home, which the social services want, again they cover their backs. He would tell you a very different story to mine should he be given the opportunity, but then again, he is ill too.

maria102 · Jun 24, 2008

Cornish Steve said:
Based on the facts offered in the OP, she shouldn't be in a public ward, and they shouldn't be handling the situation by locking her in. Sadly, the system doesn't seem to understand the word 'sensitivity' because it's a monopoly and unduly bureaucratic.

Steve! Read that properly! she had dementia and was confused, and she was in the ward because she was being treated...and no-one mentioned a key - she was in a ward specialising for dementia and being treated perfectly well and appropriately.

Cornish Steve · Jun 24, 2008

maria102 said:
Steve! Read that properly! she had dementia and was confused, and she was in the ward because she was being treated...and no-one mentioned a key - she was in a ward specialising for dementia and being treated perfectly well and appropriately.

Are we reading the same post? The original post mentioned an antenatal ward; I didn't read anything about a ward specialising in dementia. The hospital locked her in a room against her will. Her family couldn't take her home because they had no room. If I'm wrong, I'm certainly willing to stand corrected.

maria102 · Jun 24, 2008

Cornish Steve said:
Are we reading the same post? The original post mentioned an ante-natal ward; I didn't read anything about a ward specialising in dementia. I'm certainly willing to stand corrected if I misunderstood.

You quoted me, not the original post

Originally Posted by maria102

I was speaking to one lady with her bag packed that was saying she was worried that her daughter had no idea she was there etc, and she was crying

and that was taken from a paragraph where I was talking about the ward my mother in law was in, and if you believed everything the old folks told you in there, it would be very confusing as there are a lot with dementia. My father in law sounds convincing unless you know the facts - one of the symptoms of dementia is that the victims of it compensate by making up stories.

Gillie · Jun 24, 2008

Does it matter what ward she was on, surely the whole fact was that to let her wander off and not be capable of being able to fend for herself, surely then the best place for her was in hospital??

Would you have her wandering the streets totally uncared for then?? Her family for whatever reason that no one has the right to judge on without knowing all the facts couldn't cope with her so therefore to keep her safe, but unhappy for the instant, she was being kept in hospital ...

I do feel uncomfortable that people are being judged here without any comeback and any tolerance shown by those on this thread, until you are in this situation, you really cannot speculate.

What we can do is try and figure out how best to move forward in this situation, and I can only presume that adult social services would be involved to try and do the best for this lady.

maria102 · Jun 24, 2008

Gillie said:
Does it matter what ward she was on, surely the whole fact was that to let her wander off and not be capable of being able to fend for herself, surely then the best place for her was in hospital??

Would you have her wandering the streets totally uncared for then?? Her family for whatever reason that no one has the right to judge on without knowing all the facts couldn't cope with her so therefore to keep her safe, but unhappy for the instant, she was being kept in hospital ...

I.

It does matter Gillie, as the lady I was referring to was on a dementia ward, not locked in, but being cared for appropriately, though she was confused which is why she couldnt remember the circumstances for her being there.

Cornish Steve · Jun 24, 2008

So, Maria, we were indeed talking at cross purposes - sorry. I was referring to the original post, and you were referring to your earlier post. I can see why I caused confusion.

Also, I went back to find your earlier messages about the social services insisting on buying things for your in-laws that they don't need. You're right (of course) that you didn't mention kick-backs. I know I read that elsewhere, though, so now it's bugging me.

On the whole, I've been speaking in general terms. The view always looks different at the personal level. The key, I suppose, is the attitude we display. If we genuinely have the interests of our parents at heart, all options are good options. Plus, there may be extenuating circumstances, lingering bad blood from the past, and it's perhaps more difficult to forgive family than it is to forgive others because the hurt can be deeper. Sadly, though, we probably all know old people who are simply neglected by their offspring.

My main point, though, is that I believe strongly in individuals and families accepting responsibility. Too many times, there is an attitude of entitlement, that we don't have to do something because there's a safety net and the government will take care of the problem. This has weakened the role of families in daily life, which is a real pity, and it's allowed a many-headed monster to intrude on our everyday lives.

maria102 · Jun 24, 2008

Cornish Steve said:
Too many times, there is an attitude of entitlement, that we don't have to do something because there's a safety net and the government will take care of the problem.

Of course, the other side of the coin, is that in the UK the government don't appear to be quite so keen to take an interest if they are footing the bill rather than the families.

Rhyl Lightworks · Jun 24, 2008

Perhaps we should also look at this from another point of view. Sometime in the future many of us will be in the position of an elderly parent, possibly suffering from dementia or a debilitating physical disability. How would we wish to be treated?

Personally (and I think a lot of other people feel the same) I would wish to be 'put down', as we do with animals, to whom we seem much kinder. I think we should make our feelings about this very clear to those around us, in the hope that some time in the future society might allow this to happen.
Barrie

Cornish Steve · Jun 24, 2008

In a sense, this option exists already in a "living will". We can instruct others that we don't want to be hooked up to life support systems, for example. It's a bit dangerous to go beyond this step, though. In the euthanasia debate, there are many examples of people who sought to end their lives, only to survive that period and realise they could have made a terrible mistake.

Of course, the real danger is that an overbearing government makes the decision, which doesn't bear thinking about. We come close to that when doctors decide who gets a kidney and who doesn't, for example. I'd hate to be put in such a situation, and these decisions must weigh on them heavily. Having the state prescribe rules for who lives and who dies, though, would be the worst of all worlds - and I don't think we're far from that happening.

maria102 · Jun 24, 2008

Rhyl Lightworks said:
Perhaps we should also look at this from another point of view. Sometime in the future many of us will be in the position of an elderly parent, possibly suffering from dementia or a debilitating physical disability. How would we wish to be treated?

Personally (and I think a lot of other people feel the same) I would wish to be 'put down', as we do with animals, to whom we seem much kinder. I think we should make our feelings about this very clear to those around us, in the hope that some time in the future society might allow this to happen.
Barrie

Hi Barrie, we had this discussion today at work, but of course, because its so close to me at the moment, I couldn't even begin to think this way, however, interestingly my parents in laws Mental Health Nurse rang me last week and did mention that she wishes that my mother in law would just go peacefully in her sleep - although taken back, I realised that she has built a very strong relationship with them over the years and she viewed this as the best outcome.

Cornish Steve · Jun 24, 2008

maria102 said:
my parents in laws Mental Health Nurse rang me last week and did mention that she wishes that my mother in law would just go peacefully in her sleep - although taken back, I realised that she has built a very strong relationship with them over the years and she viewed this as the best outcome.

That is very scary. Does she not subscribe to the Hippocratic Oath? I can understand how a friend could wish this, but a person's nurse?

I'm sure she was talking as a friend, but still.

maria102 · Jun 24, 2008

Cornish Steve said:
That is very scary. Does she not subscribe to the Hippocratic Oath? I can understand how a friend could wish this, but a person's nurse? I'm sure she was talking as a friend, but still.

I think over the last ten years she knows them better than a lot of their friends - she's just sad about the deterioration of my mother in law, from a sensitive, intelligent, musical woman to not being able to do much for herself and be very unhappy.

That said, when we all pile in the car and plug the ipod in and sing to Frank Sinatra, its one of the happiest times we've had.

tourismalgarve · Jun 25, 2008

Putting in your will now that you do not wish to be put on life support if the requirement comes would imo be short sighted, unless you happen to be old already.

There is no limit to what can be achieved by new technologies in the future. Especially nanotechnology, which i know alot of people believe is some sort of holy grail, but the truth is, it very well could be.

So you never know, a few months on life support may very well lead to you being cured of what ever disabilitating ailment you may have.

glencooley.com · Jun 25, 2008

Cornish Steve said:
That is very scary. Does she not subscribe to the Hippocratic Oath? I can understand how a friend could wish this, but a person's nurse? I'm sure she was talking as a friend, but still.

Im pretty sure that the hippocratic oath is about conduct and ensuring you try your hardest to do what ever you can for a patient plus some other things, in no way does it restrict you from thinking that some patients could be spared pain and misery etc. Its ok for a nurse to think that; its a rational and emotional statement from someone very close to the patient. When the time comes I would wish the same for my parents and the same for me.

Rhyl Lightworks · Jun 25, 2008

maria102 said:
Hi Barrie, we had this discussion today at work, but of course, because its so close to me at the moment, I couldn't even begin to think this way, however, interestingly my parents in laws Mental Health Nurse rang me last week and did mention that she wishes that my mother in law would just go peacefully in her sleep - although taken back, I realised that she has built a very strong relationship with them over the years and she viewed this as the best outcome.

Hi Maria. This is a refreshing viewpoint from someone in the medical profession.
It has been my experience that many consultants and probably others in the medical profession suffer from 'tunnel vision'; i.e. they see only a disease or illness which they are intent on curing, or on prolonging life, with little regard to the quality of life that it may leave the patient with. They do not seem to look at the patient as a whole.
Maybe near relatives think in the same way sometimes - it seems unthinkable to want the person to die.
I would not wish to impose my view on anybody, but I do feel that if the person has expressed a clear wish to have their life ended in certain circumstances, this wish should be respected.
Barrie

dr.jawwadkhan · Jan 3, 2009

is there any other disease beside dementia,elderly people of england and europe are suffering from ?
what about the soul killing disease known as "lonliness" ?
is there any one of you,ever suffered from it ?
how one can say that lonliness is less painful than other physical illness?

maria102 · Jan 3, 2009

dr.jawwadkhan said:
is there any other disease beside dementia,elderly people of england and europe are suffering from ?
what about the soul killing disease known as "lonliness" ?
is there any one of you,ever suffered from it ?
how one can say that lonliness is less painful than other physical illness?

If you truly were a doctor, dr.jawwadkhan, you would know that dementia is a mental illness rather than a physical one..

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