Get the dog barking! What SEO Companies Should Give you!

sandpetra · Jan 11, 2007

There's a lot of interest in SEO lately so I thought, as i'm an SEO new to the forum, I'd weigh in and try and earn some honest credibility by giving an insight to what I think you should get from an SEO company in 2007. Sorry! This is a long post

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First - Expert? Am I an expert? Can i say i am? "A wise man knows nuthin'" i think some old Chinese person said. But clients want to hear this phrase especially when paying money! What do you do? I say "If you want a Google SEO expert, phone Google" - I am however experienced at SEO principles and with theory - I practice every day, and the more i practice, the better results I seem to generate (some old Golf quote).

Importantly, I sure know what doesnt work (Google actually tells everyone)!

Secondly - web design company or seo company? Two different things Im afraid offering two different services. Many (as we do) offer both services, and varying "products" or disciplines. Personally, I'm a web designer / web developer who's over the last 6 years become obsessed with Google. Nowadays i would consider myself an ethical, white hat SEO (now obviously i have did things in the past, many years ago, in either ignorance or stupidity, that could be considered a bit naughty - and in SEO you dont get your stripes until Google kicks you in the gonads!)

Probably because although i have always been interested in art and design and computers, for the last 10 years i have had a deeper interest with "marketing and sales" - the very thing that makes the world go around. I am also a web accessibilty geek! This gives me usually a bit more insight into actual web design than a grahic or inexperienced web designer, for instance.

Ask yourself:

• Do you want a nice seo friendly website (can be done in 4 weeks usually - end of job)
• Do you want to rank higher in Google (takes 3-6 months with a 1yr agreement)

So i am a bit of an all rounder. My target customer? Small to medium sized businesses and organisations who need the best deal possible - with a cost and job agreed to match their requirement - not mine.

The type of client I normally get is one who needs a SEO friendly website revamp and wants better positioning in Google. Normally i agree to take on the work over a years contract (unless it is an ad-hoc web design project with no ongoing optimisation). We dont necessarily charge an upfront fee, but a monthly cost is agreed for SEO. The end-aim is always the same - to get more relevant traffic to the site and get my clients phone ringing (metaphorically speaking) - this is ultimately what i am judged on.

It is worth noting:

• Some Graphic Designers dont know how to build websites
• Some website designer dont know how to do seo properly
• Some SEOs dont know a thing about building websites (!)

A seo friendly website is a different animal from an optimised website. Optimisation by the very nature of the term is to make something better over time. You cant build an optimised site in 6 weeks, because you need data on competition, ranking analysis, testing etc but you can build a seo friendly website in this time.

With that in mind, if you are a small business looking for a seo solution, this is what you should expect -

• Appear In Google within the first month under normal circumstances if you've not been in before or if the site is new.
• Dont expect to rank high for competitive key phrases for 3-9 months for new SITES. Google uses filters to "filter" out websites that may show strong promise for ranking for competitive keywords until Google has had a chance to determine for itself over time where the site should appear on search engines results. Some people call this the GOOGLE SANDBOX.
• Old sites can rank for competitive keywords within the first 3 months. When i say old, I mean sites Google has known about for over a year or two, and sites that have a page rank.

You can type the following into Google to see if your site is in Google and how many pages Google has "read" on your site and has "indexed" ie recorded for use -

SITE:yourdomainname

After a few months (3-6) you should be able to see a visible page Rank indicator for your site. Page Rank is just a measure of your page taking into a lot of factors. It scores 1-10. 0-3 is doo-da. 4-5 is OK but quite easy to achieve. 6-8 is excellent. 9-10 means you are the BBC or Google or another global brand (so relax)! High page rank does not necessarily mean a lot of traffic but usually the higher the page rank, the more trust Google has in your website. How is this good? Well it is thought if you have a high PR then your site is spidered or read by Google that bit more often - meaning if you have a blog constantly selling something - then Google will include your page fast if your PR is high! Meaning you are in the search results and hopefully getting leads in a quicker time.

To get PR (and basically to even get into Google) you need links from other websites pointing to your website. Not just any old links either. You want quality links from on-topic websites or industry resource sites. This will get you a high PR. On the subject of links you want more links because the more links you have with good keywords actually in the pointing link, pointing to your site, the higher you appear in the search engines for searches for that term.

To see how many quality links you have in Google, type

LINK:yourdomainname

Google doesnt show all links to prevent reverse engineering, but you can type the same in Yahoo to get a more complete picture.

It is important you understand that quality links matter. Google devalues links all the time and makes tweaks to it's algorithm - hence why the top of GOOGLE now "ALWAYS CHANGES".

You want proper links not "faked ones". You want real people linking to fresh new quality content on you site (yes! You (or your seo) have to give them a reason to link to your site wether that be an online quiz or free stuff or the latest industry news! You do not want 100 "directory links" etc or 100% manufactured reciprocal links. While useful, year on year they diminish in worth. Google (and indeed Yahoo, MSN etc) looks at a lot of things when determining where your site ranks. A good seo company will aim to do the following by deploying the most cost effective, time saving techniques to your site:

1. Increase Page Rank
2. Increase Incoming Link Count In Google
3. Increase Relevent Link Count In Google
4. Monitor Results in Google For Targetted keyterms
5. Monitor Increase Traffic Levels to Your Site
6. Modify any part of the site to be more seo friendly (text, code etc)
7....and evaluate results and target & modify etc until targeted keywords are successfully positioned.
8. Ultimately, increase visibility, traffic and sales

Monitoring Effectiveness

If you're using the LINK or SITE operators above, you can actually keep track of some of the changes and modifications made by your seo over the course of the job. If you started with a page rank 1 site 6 months ago and it has not risen to at least 4 or 5 in this time, it's pretty safe to say that the seo initiative could be innefective (especially if you have no increase in traffic - which at the end of the day what this is all about! Converting Traffic!).

TIP - Sign up http://www.digitalpoint.com/tools/keywords/ (or get your seo to show you these results every month) to track your keyword performance in Google. You can see how it works at this "seo keyword example". Get the FREE Google Analytics installed on your site, too.

Don't expect to get a page rank 6 within the first year (this is normally quite difficult and expensive) although we managed it twice so far in the 2007 January Page Rank update which is actually happening as we speak (it happens about 4 times a year usually).

To be fair however, Google is playing some funny games at the moment so at all times, please give your SEO the benefit of the doubt!

Showing you the money!

An SEO GEEK can usually show you returns from a site within the 3-6 month period. The remaining 6 months of a 1 year contract is usually spent consolidating and improving. If you cannot see any change within 6 months, then something could be and probably is amiss (although obviously the more competitive your industry on a global scale, the harder it is).

Get on to your web optimiser. Ask them what's happening! Say you want to see the traffic stats for last month - and indeed since the campaign begun.

Things to avoid if you want to stay happy!

It's easy. If a seo promises you anything - look elsewhere! Simple i know from my high vantage point, but it is that simple and logical, much like seo!

FACT - No-one knows how Google works today or tomorrow. We only think we know.
FACT - Google has no special relationships when it comes to SEO. They hate us all it seems!
FACT - No SEO can promise Number 1 rankings. We aim for the first page, initially.

Bonus Fact - A seo will happily spend hours talking to you about what has been done to optimise your site - until your eyes are sore with keeping your lids open. If a seo isnt transparent about what is being done - again, something might be amiss - or youre talking to sales!

I hope this is useful. Any other seos want to comment (or expand - I am losing consciousness) and hopefully make this thread even more useful?

Shaun (if my whitterings confuse, please ask me to clarify)

Aspect Investments · Jan 11, 2007

Good post Shaun.

I dont agree with the timescale you have quoted though. SEO is an onging job I agree that. But a good SEO should be able to improve a sites ranking within a month. Google updates its search results every few days, so a month is enough time in my opinion to show some improvement.

For example, I have been SEO ing a brand new site for around 6 weeks. The site was listed in Google within 3 days, and is on the 1st page on Google for a competitive search term. The job is ongoing, but im happy with the results so far.

The site is showing page rank 4 and has 618 Google backlinks. It should be page rank 5 or 6 to be honest, but like you say Google is a law unto itself.

sandpetra · Jan 11, 2007

Watch it EBA! By the end of this post people will be thinking it can be done tomorrow!

I'm trying to manange client expectation.

However, I certainly would not promise a new site in a month - leaving yourself open to criticism, and what happens if the site has a penalyty of some kind you dont know about until the second month?

I do say however a more established site should be able to see results sooner.

And another thing, you might rank well now, but it could drop or disappear from Google tomorrow. Waiting a bit more time or gathering a bit more data over time for customers is more useful to me.

Aspect Investments · Jan 11, 2007

Im not saying you can get any site on the 1st page of Google within a month. But you should be able to improve a sites position in Google within a month.

Im sure you are a genuine guy Shaun, but there are many so called SEOs who like to take peoples money, and then say it will take 6 months before the changes take effect. This is simply not acceptable, and im just trying to advise people of the facts, that a good SEO should be able to show you some improvement within a month.

Coding Monkey · Jan 11, 2007

sandpetra said:
Secondly - web design company or seo company? Two different things Im afraid offering two different services. Many (as we do) offer both services, and varying "products" or disciplines.

I'm glad you say that. Although we outsource SEO to another company and make this obvious to our clients, I hear so frequently that it is the fault of a web designer if the website is not 100% SEO friendly. This is like hiring a copywriter to write something for you, then complaining that it wasn't posted correctly to your target audience.

I see a website as a stage of 4 (often 5) types of professions: photographer, designer, developer, copywriter, SEO'er (yes, that'll do as a word). For most web designers, they will be trained in graphic design, not search engine techniques and programming. As a company, through working with these companies, we try and incorporate all of these factors that we have learnt - and yet, I've learnt that different companies use different techniques, so that there are certainly wrong ways, but there is no "right way".

Rob Holmes · Jan 11, 2007

I think you hit the nail on the head Tom, alot of people that call themselves web designers are actually just managers of other professionals - but they do it from a graphics perspective which is wrong.

Rob

Richie N · Jan 11, 2007

I would be interested in speaking to SEOs to improve our ranking so please PM me.
thanks

sandpetra · Jan 11, 2007

"a good SEO should be able to show you some improvement within a month"

Yes I agree now, but again it comes down to each job, for they are all different. In my experience when you tell clients you'll see results in a month, they expect much more, even when you at the time try and quantify this improvement quite clearly. I know i can get a Page Rank 5 site in one PR update - but i dont promise thie same result to any client so i dont let them down.

It's all about client expectation at the end.

What if you find, for no reason, the site is not in Google in a month? You've failed! The client doesnt know that Google is a very strange beast - a law unto itself.

And to clarify - i am talking about first page results in general when i say 3-6 months (in some sectors). In others, it can take even more time, and in totally niche markets i can probably get you top ten in 7 days! (see what i mean?)

This is my honest observation. And remember business is business. If you get an advertising agency to create a tv campaign for you and they say "we'll be done with our creative proposals in 2 weeks" do you honestly believe it takes two weeks to come up with the pitch? Of course, it doesnt. They have other clients to service and you'll be fitted into the work flow asap.

SEOs have a biz too. With a lot of clients sometimes. It's unfair sometimes for a client to think he/she is the only client and can expect you to work 10 hours a day from when you win the pitch till said client hits top ten. This is managing your seo business and setting realistic expetations for both seo and client.

I say 3-6 months to see consolidated and "stable" improvement in Google. If i deliver faster, good. At the end of the day if a seo says he can do it faster - and I lose the job pitch - so be it.

But I think I am ethical. That is why i take a yearly contract - to get to grips with job at hand and get results. To deliver. I've never taken money off a client and not, basically, worked my backside off!

PeteYoung · Jan 11, 2007

I dont neccesarily disagree with SandPetra's original timescales especially once you get into the moderately competitive keyword sector (not longtail terms).

Whilst you can expect some changes during the initial months, much of this is spent building foundations (particularly on newer sites - if you can position a brand new site on a moderately competitive term in amonth - well you have my deepest respext), which allows you to build more effectively over the ongoing months in order to establish the site fully in the long term

darren atkinson · Jan 12, 2007

Hi All,

Very interesting topic, I think Shaun sums most things up pretty well really. Obviously every SEO works a different way, and develops their own methods so not everyone is going to agree with every point made. The timeframe I prefer to work to is as follows:

Brand new sites:
- Small gains and ranking in 3 - 4 weeks
- Break into competitive terms in 6 months or so
- Dominating top half of SERPS for many targeted keywords 8 - 12 months / ongoing

Existing (Older) sites:
- Break into competitive terms in a month or so maximum
- Dominating top half of SERPS for many targeted keywords up to 6 months

This is a very rough guide as it obviously changes on a site by site and keyword basis.

Like Shaun says it may be possible to boost an older site up really quickly, but it is better to under estimate on results and then over perform on actual results further down the line.

Many people would be put off hiring an SEO company for an ongoing project which could last 1 - 2 years or more, but you have to be realistic. The amount of visitors which can be achieved using SEO can be enormous, and trying to gain this number of visitors by using other methods (non SEO) could cost many times as much.

I might be going a little of topic here, so I apologise in advance (hopefully some people might find this interesting):

I was reading an article / blog from a very famous SEO expert who works for an also very famous SEO company about how much they charge clients. At first glance the figures looked ridiculous. He stated a 6 - 8 month SEO campaign would cost around $50,000 USD, with a complete site rebuild and SEO campaign at around $120,000 USD.

Initially I thought how can this be? But realistically how much does a decent quality run of TV ad's cost? How much does it cost to take out full page ad's in leading media publications? Really, when you look at it that way the SEO work is quite cheap!

The problems for good quality SEO and Internet Marketing companies are:

- Educating website \ business owners of these facts
- Gaining client trust in a world of fake SEO companies

Too many times have I seen and heard tales of people getting ripped off by so called SEO's, there are some stories on this forum right now.

I received an email from a 'SEO' company yesterday offering me their services, what a cheek, they had a shoddy website, the email contained false information, and if they had even bother to take a 2 second glance at my home page should have realised they were wasting their time. The long email claimed they had analysed my site, ha!

Clients of mine often receive emails telling them that for just £50 they will be submitted on 1000's of search engines and will rank in the top positions. SEO is an absolute minefield for business owners.

Getting back on topic:

In my opinion a good SEO company should be initially be able to demonstrate results they have already achieved for previous clients, and then they should gain a clients trust. SEO's should be looking long term rather than billing up front, spending a few months then moving on to the next client.

Darren

PeteYoung · Jan 12, 2007

darren atkinson said:
Initially I thought how can this be? But realistically how much does a decent quality run of TV ad's cost? How much does it cost to take out full page ad's in leading media publications? Really, when you look at it that way the SEO work is quite cheap!

The problems for good quality SEO and Internet Marketing companies are:

- Educating website \ business owners of these facts
- Gaining client trust in a world of fake SEO companies

You made some good points there Darren, just thought I would comment slightly on what you said.

You mentioned the TV and press coverage, however much of this is based round applicable demographics, and coverage slots ie times etc are guaranteed, and response rates generally higher. SEO is less controllable as you are at the direct whim of the search engines and whilst you can minimise the effects of search engine algoritm updates (by employing more white hat techniques") at the end of the day, you can't guarantee performance and you can't guarantee timescales.

Moving onto your second point. Spot on. Don't necessarily agree with the word "fake SEO companies", I like to look at them as not offering the service I (or many other Internet Marketeers) can offer. Most web developers/designers these days have an appreciation for the web, and designs impact on SEO. However for many people marketing a website doesnt go beyond titles, meta tags and web submission, somewhere where the "more professional" organisations go beyond, implementing a number of strategies aimed at reaching those timescales you mentioned earlier.

To follow on from this, there is a good post over on SearchEngineLand (Danny Sullivans latest project for those in the industry), about the current perspective on SEO (IS SEO overated)

sandpetra · Jan 12, 2007

I would be wary of seos who cold call you, or email you without your permission offering quite simply a product that is too good to be true.

if you see "guarantee" on these emails there's a good chance it's just some chancer.

Of course every body needs to look for buisness. At the moment were fortunate enough that about 80% of business comes by referrals, with another 20% through search engines. I'll find out the exact figures so we can show you the type of return YOU can expect from an seo.

Bear in mind we are only a small company, 9 months old, and only beginning to try and muscle our way to the top of Google!

Ideally you should be reffered to a SEO, or you find them in Google (in the organic or natural spots, not necessarily in the sponsored boxes).

ImproveSearchListings · Jan 12, 2007

sandpetra said:
I would be wary of seos who cold call you, or email you without your permission

I work in SEO and PPC and although I find most of the rest of your statement to be true (I would be wary of someone guaranteeing the moon on a stick), I find it strange that you find it wrong to look for business.

I work for a very ethical company, who do not guarantee SEO results (although we are prepared to put in a performance bonus related to the successes we bring).

Many of our clients are large blue-chip organisations who can think of nothing worse than sharing sensitive information about who they use to other companies - especially if there is any cross over.

We actually do get business from referrals, usually from a shared board member etc, however if I (or anyone I worked with for that matter) sat there and waited fro the phone to ring, I think I'd have to question our tactics and how we were going to reach our ever stretching targets.

Outside of SEO specifics, when I recieve an e-mail addressed to me and pertinent to our business, as far as I'm concerned it shows me that they have done some research, they aren't just spamming everyone on a list and from that I will either reply (if it is a current need worth them bidding on) or I will accept a call and see if they would be any use in the future. At the same time, I have been able to get business from the company contacting me in the past.

It's been a long day and I'm looking forward to the weekend. Feel that maybe I was a little stressed at the beginning of this post. Glad to have voiced my opinion. Feel quite calm now!

GreatSEO · Jan 12, 2007

Heres a bit of a offer for you -

I have worked for a number of SEO specialists that have allowed me to see who there clients are and what they have achieved (under NDA of course). From what i have seen there are many different ways to get to the top of google, some bad and some right. With this in mind if any of you SEO specialists can show me how good you are (buys confidence) i may very well be able to put some business your way from the telemarketing that i do.

To give you an idea over 3 months at 5 days of telemarketing a month i produced 11 new clients on a retainer per month for my customer. I love SEO its a huge thing to learn about and you can learn something new everyday (bit like IT)

Sorry Mods you can move or delete if you deem appropriate

But if your interested please PM me.

With regards to the posts so far i dont think anyone can guarantee a top spot within google as there are so many people that offer the service.

Kindest Regards

Dave

sandpetra · Jan 12, 2007

ImproveSearchListings said:
... I find it strange that you find it wrong to look for business...

Whoa! I dont think you got the full meaning from my post, or perhaps I've not fully expressed my view.

That's not what i mean at all. Please note....

ImproveSearchListings said:
... Of course every body needs to look for buisness. At the moment were fortunate enough

What i am saying it is probably "safer" for a newbie to SEO to ignore unsolicited emails and cold calls. This type of client should try and get some seo details from one of their current advertising partners. If they cant they should check Google results. Like everything else in life get a few cost estimates from say 3 companies.

Maybe I just dont like cold-calling.

I will be however sending out presentation packs to some contacts, through the post, and following up with a telephone call. Probably. At the moment i dont really need to chase this but I will at some point obviously.

This suits the type of client I am aiming for, and as i work closely with an advertising agency, it gives them the chance to put a glossy presentation in front of clients offering their offline services too.

David said:
... With regards to the posts so far i dont think anyone can guarantee a top spot within google as there are so many people that offer the service...

No this is not the point at all. No one can guarantee top place in Google because Google constantly changes. No one. That's no single person. Now dont get me wrong, a good seo will aim for it, sometimes obsess about it and for some of the time achieve it. But there is no telling how the competition will rocket or wane over the course of a year. And Google updates data every couple of days. One Day your page 1 for 2 years, next day you could be on the 10th page ie invisible.

i do'nt know a site that has stayed at the top for an unbranded competitive keyterm over the course of the last year. If it has - it's not a competive keyterm, simple as that! (I'm not trying to be arguementitve here, :redface

.

It's just not helpful for anyone if anyone visits this thread and thinks there are any guarantees in seo. You might think it is strange me saying this, but the only thing I guarantee is that I work my arse off (can I say that?) - and possibly, that it is currently raining in sunny Greenock.

Does a newspaper guarantee visitors from advert? Of course not. They dont even guarantee circulation. You take your chance. Do you get any guarantees from a tv commercial? Nope. They can come up with facts but many people here know the conversion rate these days in the press ....and the cost!

Fact is you dont get any guarantees in any form of marketing I know of - except when something appears. And SEO is marketing, simple as that, not rocket science, not black magic - and you dont need to be Einstein to understand a lot of simple, rewarding (but sometimes time consuming) tactics in SEO.

I can get a site in Google in about 2 seconds, and possibly to an audience of thousands in that 2 seconds ( I did it with a page where I was getting 2000 visitors a day from Stumble and for a week this marketing channel proved useful). If the site is any good of course. (edit - and of cousre i dont mean it appears in Google right away, just that Google will spider it in the next couple of days - although you could be in GOOGLE BLOG SEARCH - typically, an artical you write appears here within the hour if it is any good.)

Am I genius? No I just know how to use my delicious bookmark, my stumble bookmark, my blog, my digg - god - whatever social bookmarking system I use ie any body can do this with a FIREFOX EXTENSION. The problem is some people sell, for hundreds of pounds, what i just said above. It's nonsense. It's not ethical and it is why some dont trust seo companies. Of course some believe a fool and money is easily parted.

Am I always thinking about the magic bullet? Of course, like any other seo, and even though it is 99.999999% no chance of finding it, I try and the more I read the more I learn I know the best ways to spend limited time to cost effectively market a site. And at the same time I have found some great methods (which I am dying to let out the bag - but obviously wont!).

After all I need to make money! As for showing clients work, i show clients that allow me (mostly web design). Anyone trying to reverse engineer my stuff will find a few good things, but most of it is just methodical stuff they should know anyway (some of which they will need to know to reverse engineer!). I think I am working on some magic ideas at the moment, delivering really good results.

If someone was copying me or examining my stuff they will need to be working very hard indeed with the hours I keep (and I'm OCD!) - so good luck to them - it's a big internet and there's plenty of room for seo people that actually do love it! If you worry too much about hiding your stuff when you dont need to, you dont believe your own hype!

Every SEO today stands on the shoulders of giants.

I think this thread has got some useful info for people on here. Any more SEOs want a say?

sandpetra · Jan 12, 2007

I think I will add a wee snippet - the problem is many clients know that Google ranks companies from 1 to 10. Many clients know "some people" (ie SEOs) can claim to influence these results.

So they think, quite naturally, that number 1 is possible and all you need to do is pay for it, like being on the back page of the yellow pages.

This is the problem I think.

Google is like the waves of the sea. Sometimes youre up sometimes your down. The sooner customers understand this the better. It is the job of the seo to "ride the waves" - constantly trying to keep the site high as everything shifts around it, and even more importantly, to try and get leads for the customer while all this happens (usually by targetting the long tail).

directmarketingadvice · Jan 12, 2007

I don't get all of this.

All you SEO guys are talking about how you are "professional SEOs" and are saying how it's an integral part of SEO to be "constantly trying to keep the site high" on google.

Yet Tin, another professional SEO, has posted in the past that he has clients who he SEO'd one time years ago and they're still up there.

No wonder us laymen are totally confused about how to select an SEO company and are suspicious about what's real in SEO and what's just a con to extract an ongoing stream of fees.

So, why is there such a discrepancy between what different people are saying?

Why is it necessary to change on-going fees? And how come Tin says he doesn't?

If this thread is really about helping people understand what they should expect and ask from an SEO, then how about you guys getting off the fence and explaining that one?

Steve

sandpetra · Jan 13, 2007

SteveGibson said:
I don't get all of this.

All you SEO guys are talking about how you are "professional SEOs" and are saying how it's an integral part of SEO to be "constantly trying to keep the site high" on google.

Yet Tin, another professional SEO, has posted in the past that he has clients who he SEO'd one time years ago and they're still up there.

No wonder us laymen are totally confused about how to select an SEO company and are suspicious about what's real in SEO and what's just a con to extract an ongoing stream of fees.

So, why is there such a discrepancy between what different people are saying?

Why is it necessary to change on-going fees? And how come Tin says he doesn't?

If this thread is really about helping people understand what they should expect and ask from an SEO, then how about you guys getting off the fence and explaining that one?

Steve

We're talking now mainly about seo companies who guarantee top placement.

Google!!!!!! said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Search Engine Optimizers[/FONT] [SIZE=-1]SEO is an abbreviation for "search engine optimizer." Many SEOs provide useful services for website owners, from writing copy to giving advice on site architecture and helping to find relevant directories to which a site can be submitted. However, a few unethical SEOs have given the industry a black eye through their overly aggressive marketing efforts and their attempts to unfairly manipulate search engine results.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]While Google doesn't have relationships with any SEOs and doesn't offer recommendations, we do have a few tips that may help you distinguish between an SEO that will improve your site and one that will only improve your chances of being dropped from search engine results altogether. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1] Be wary of SEO firms that send you email out of the blue. Amazingly, we get these spam emails too:

"Dear google.com,
I visited your website and noticed that you are not listed in most of the major search engines and directories..."
Reserve the same skepticism for unsolicited email about search engines as you do for "burn fat at night" diet pills or requests to help transfer funds from deposed dictators.
No one can guarantee a #1 ranking on Google. Beware of SEOs that claim to guarantee rankings, allege a "special relationship" with Google, or advertise a "priority submit" to Google. There is no priority submit for Google. In fact, the only way to submit a site to Google directly is through our Add URL page or through the Google Sitemaps (Beta) program, and you can do this yourself at no cost whatsoever.
Be careful if a company is secretive or won't clearly explain what they intend to do. Ask for explanations if something is unclear. If an SEO creates deceptive or misleading content on your behalf, such as doorway pages or "throwaway" domains, your site could be removed entirely from Google's index. Ultimately, you are responsible for the actions of any companies you hire, so it's best to be sure you know exactly how they intend to "help" you.

For more see [/SIZE]Google!

[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]

JustOneUK · Jan 13, 2007

SteveGibson said:
I don't get all of this.

All you SEO guys are talking about how you are "professional SEOs" and are saying how it's an integral part of SEO to be "constantly trying to keep the site high" on google.

Yet Tin, another professional SEO, has posted in the past that he has clients who he SEO'd one time years ago and they're still up there.

No wonder us laymen are totally confused about how to select an SEO company and are suspicious about what's real in SEO and what's just a con to extract an ongoing stream of fees.

So, why is there such a discrepancy between what different people are saying?

If this thread is really about helping people understand what they should expect and ask from an SEO, then how about you guys getting off the fence and explaining that one?

Hi Steve,

Here's my 3am explantion.

The goal definately is to ride the waves and keep sites on page 1, however sometimes it is possible to make something better than the Titanic - "unsinkable"

Some websites will naturally stick at the top 1,2,3 places. It's like a snowball effect...the SEO gets the ball rolling and the internet does the rest.

There are 3 main things to consider.....
1) The keywords targeted.
2) Links.
3) The content of the website.

James.

I, Brian · Jan 13, 2007

Nice thread, Shaun.

SteveGibson said:
So, why is there such a discrepancy between what different people are saying?

The key here is that different clients have different needs and compete in different markets.

So a lot needs to be tailored towards the agreed goals and targets you set up.

On the point of seeing results - again, it all depends on the competitive nature of the keywords being targeted.

Seeing "some" improvement usually isn't enough if it isn't anywhere near targets, and it can take a while to determine strengths and weaknesses for further focus in a fairly comprehensive campaign, especially with the link development.

The really ideal links are on-topic and on pages that lots of authority sites are linking to - but these are rare. So off-topic links are actually fine.

However, if you set up links for different keywords and you find some underperforming, you can seek to change the links powering those keywords, until you get the balance right.

That's another reason why SEO can take time - if you're aiming for a number of keywords in competitive markets, there can be a lot of fine-tuning to do to exploit strengths and turnaround weaknesses.

2c.

directmarketingadvice · Jan 13, 2007

None of you have really answered my questions:

Why is it necessary to change on-going fees? And how come Tin says he doesn't?

Maybe it will help if I ask a third question to go along with them:

Is there a point where SEO is "done"?

i.e. the SEO has finished and the site will remain in it's high position on google without any additional SEO and won't drop off p1 just because of a small algo change?

Steve

multilingual · Jan 13, 2007

SteveGibson said:
None of you have really answered my questions:

Maybe it will help if I ask a third question to go along with them:

Is there a point where SEO is "done"?

i.e. the SEO has finished and the site will remain in it's high position on google without any additional SEO and won't drop off p1 just because of a small algo change?

Steve

There are two types of SEO. On page and off page.

The on page stuff is generally a one-off event (subject to a little tinkering from time to time) where as the off page SEO tend to be ongoing (Link building, etc)

JB

JustOneUK · Jan 13, 2007

SteveGibson said:
Is there a point where SEO is "done"?

i.e. the SEO has finished and the site will remain in it's high position on google without any additional SEO and won't drop off p1 just because of a small algo change?

Your SEO is done when your competitors stop doing theirs

(You could be ranked right at the top but if someone else is building and promoting their site more than you,.... why should you stay at the top.
It's not a god given right)

People generally want the crappiest oscommerce site to rank for the hardest ever keywords...and think they are going to pay about £50 for that LMAO! when there are sites spending £50K/month+ promoting theirs.

James.

directmarketingadvice · Jan 13, 2007

Your SEO is done when your competitors stop doing theirs

(You could be ranked right at the top but if someone else is building and promoting their site more than you,.... why should you stay at the top.
It's not a god given right)

While I understand your point, I'm not sure I agree with it.

It's surely not who's "promoting their site more than you", but who's doing better SEO than you.

But that doesn't quite address my initial questions of why there's this ongoing charging.

Is it really just a pre-emptive attempt to avoid the possibility that someone might come along and SEO better for the same term?

And, if so, doesn't that say something about the quality of the SEO that was done in the first place?

Frankly, I've been disappointed by the answers I've received to what I feel were fairly simple questions about operating practices.

If the point of this thread was to help potential clients (i.e. people who may invest in SEO in the near future) understand how to select an SEO company, I feel that it's done a poor job of educating people on the key issues.

Steve

JustOneUK · Jan 13, 2007

Generally SEO is an ongoing role of link building and applying the latest trends to your webpages. If you get someone for a 'one off' SEO of your website..that is fine. It should achieve at least something but it will not be building links to your site and will not be furthering or tweaking your webpages in the long term, hence a monthly fee and continued observation and adjusting of your website. There is no point having SEO if you don't even have the skills or time to monitor the results.

These things take time to learn, do and apply. SEO's also have mouths to feed. If you have the time to do it yourself then that's just great just like decorating your own house... if you learn how to do it and have the time and motivation, do it, if not get a decorator.

James.

I, Brian · Jan 13, 2007

SteveGibson said:
None of you have really answered my questions:

Why is it necessary to change on-going fees? And how come Tin says he doesn't?

Click to expand...

Different fee structures reflect different services provisions - for example, two extremes:

If all that's asked for is a redevelopment of a site to make it search engine friendly, then it's really a single task that's being asked for - one time fee

If someone needs a link development campaign, then likely a monthly fee to cover link rental costs will be required - continual fees.

It's also worth pointing out that a retainer for support can also be a good idea - so the business can be guaranteed a prompt and authoritive reply should any specific issues come up (supplemental results, -30 penalty, sudden fall after an algo change, etc). Existing clients should expect this as part of the service from SME SEO companies, though larger corporate SEO companies may charge like lawyers for time spent.

2c.

SteveGibson said:
Is there a point where SEO is "done"?

i.e. the SEO has finished and the site will remain in it's high position on google without any additional SEO and won't drop off p1 just because of a small algo change?

Steve

It really depends what's being targeted.

I'm currently taking a break while writing a report for a big finance client. We're targeting really competitive keyword areas (including single keyword finance terms) and there's not a chance in hell they're going to rank for these simply by being search engine friendly.

So they have a link development campaign that requires continual attention - on-going building work, monitoring of which strategies are proving most effect, leveraging stronger rankings to help other keywords, and determining which keywords are underperforming and require further attention.

Competition is fierce - everyone's engaged in their own campaigns. We have to be more aggressive, to push ourselves ahead. That's continual work.

Hope that helps.

sandpetra · Jan 13, 2007

Firstly, Steve, Didnt you read the first post? i clearly say there is a difference between an optimised site and on going seo. If you are in a niche market - selling zebra styled umbrellas, I could do you an ad-hoc campaign that would probably suffice.

If you have a shopping cart I can optimise your linking structure so all 35K pages are in Google. But getting SELECTED pages of this to the top in Google will be time consuming - after all it's all based on the competition. You might sell lightbulbs on one page but do you really expect to rank above a site that sells only lightbulbs? You can in some instances, but with a lot of work, work an seo might not see the results for for weeks.

You ask why charge an ongoing fee. Simple explanation really.

• If I am optimising your site for your chosen keywords, how can I possibly know if the optimisation work I am carrying out is working? I check it every day!!! If it's not working, over time, I tweak my efforts. I want paid for it!!!!

• Charge a one off fee? Sure I could, but clients usually preefer this cost spread out!!!! Are you saying you would prefer to pay me £10,000 for a competitive seo campaign up front? Or are you actually saying you want to pay me £500 one off and get the same results?

Just like a good hairdresser - You are paying for:

1. My experience.
2. My skill.
3. The hours

• If I say i will optimise keywords for you, how do I know the search engine results will be the same tomorrow? Or next week? Or six months from now??? Please underatand me when i say GOOGLE CHANGES EVERY DAY!!!

That is why no seo can offer you guarantees, apart from working their backside off.

• If you go on holiday for 3 months and say "water my plant" and you come back and it's dead, and I say, well I watered it the day you left, is that any real help to you?

• On the net, more competition appears every day.

• In 3 months from now the links I got you today might not even be there, or they may be devalued, or on the other hand, they might be solid, traffic giving and google loved. You cant tell without EXPERIMENTATION + RESEARCH. By both the nature of both of these, IT TAKES TIME.

Some websites will naturally stick at the top 1,2,3 places. It's like a snowball effect...the SEO gets the ball rolling and the internet does the rest.

Yes...in a very uncompetitive niche market. Try applying that thinking to the finance sector.

Steve, my intention with this thread was to come off the fence. I have nothing to hide. I stand by every thing I have said.

SEO is like insurance - and we all know, even insurance is useless in some cases. You pay for it every month and you expect to get something out of it at the end - but it all depends on which insurance policy you have in the end - the same can be applied to seo?

Do you want to pay one off? Find an seo who's willing to take £500 from you and wait 3 months to see the results.

I remember bulding a wee site for some new start biz for £750. With that cash, i said I would build the site and promote it to the search engines for him. I also optimised the site for his chosen keyword term and done a couple of hours getting decent quality sites to link to him.

Within 4 weeks he was in Google and on the first page for that term. Whoopee!

Do you know what? 6 months later he phoned me and said "I am slipping down Google, now on second page" - but you said you would optimise it for me!

For £750 he expected to get a website (which I ended up losing money on) and stay top on Google for a competitive search term, for ever, even though I FULLY EXPLAINED TO HIM this was a short term seo boost, to see if it was worth him to pay me for continual seo, when he sold his products for £500 a pop!!!

Natrually I told this guy to piss off!

One more point, if i charge you £10,000 for seo, I'm working on it in some wway every day over the next year. That's the difference.

Hope this clarifies a wee bit.

sandpetra · Jan 13, 2007

I said:
If someone needs a link development campaign, then likely a monthly fee to cover link rental costs will be required - continual fees.

Hi Brian, while I agree with what you said I'll just clarify this point, as this is not really whaat i am talking about. I dont buy links, so this isnt really relevent to my clients (Google doesnt like you buying links for seo purposes).

Once you have a seo friendly site full of fresh, updated regularly, unique content, the most important factor is LINKS. Within your site, from your site and to your site.

The links to your site can only be generated over a long time - there's no other ethical way of doing this - hence the long lead time.

The more quality links you have pointing to your site, the better you rank, simple as that.

sandpetra · Jan 13, 2007

SteveGibson said:
Is there a point where SEO is "done"?

i.e. the SEO has finished and the site will remain in it's high position on google without any additional SEO and won't drop off p1 just because of a small algo change?

Steve

No one can offer you this for a competitive, or even semi-compeittive keyword. No one!

I, Brian · Jan 13, 2007

sandpetra said:
Google doesnt like you buying links for seo purposes.

...

The more quality links you have pointing to your site, the better you rank, simple as that.

I think it's worth underlining that lots of link buying *is* over Google's radar, and you really *don't* want to be over Google's radar.

I would personally never touch well-known link sellers, precisely because Google not only dislikes them, but sometimes trawls their inventory and can penalise sites actively buying from them.

Much of my own link building is based on my having developed a portfolio of websites in different sectors, where I can have full control over the placement of links and manage as required - supplemented with various third-party link publishing solutions that most everybody uses, plus, if required, purchase of links from a private links broker incorporating other portfolios.

Bottom line, I think, is that link strategies can be very varied - but whichever is followed, it pays to be as low key as possible.

Link development is as much about risk management, ensuring that you protect clients from obvious risk. Because if Google do look at what you're doing, you want to look as inoffensive as possible.

sandpetra · Jan 13, 2007

Agreed Brian!

darren atkinson · Jan 14, 2007

SteveGibson said:
But that doesn't quite address my initial questions of why there's this ongoing charging.

Is it really just a pre-emptive attempt to avoid the possibility that someone might come along and SEO better for the same term?

And, if so, doesn't that say something about the quality of the SEO that was done in the first place?

Frankly, I've been disappointed by the answers I've received to what I feel were fairly simple questions about operating practices.

If the point of this thread was to help potential clients (i.e. people who may invest in SEO in the near future) understand how to select an SEO company, I feel that it's done a poor job of educating people on the key issues.

Steve

Without trying to sound derogatory at all I think you are really discussing SEO from the point of view of smaller websites. Obviously this forum probably has a high proportion of smaller businesses so it is quite valid to do this, however I think a few of my SEO colleagues and myself are also including big businesses when we are explaining various points.

You are most probably very aware that there are loads of businesses out there that spend an absolute fortune on AdWords and PPC. Some companies spend many thousands a week / month (this is not an exaggeration). For these companies would not employing a dedicated SEO company to get them naturally high rankings in the search engines be a worth while exercise?

These companies with big AdWords spends are more likely to be in a highly competitive sector of business with a big fight to list highly for the search terms. In this case an ongoing SEO 'contract' would ensure that someone is constantly:
- monitoring performance
- building links
- managing any paid links / ad's
- creating content
- competitor research
- keeping abreast of SE developments (such as updates / algo changes)
- possibly managing any PPC that might be also running

I have no doubt missed other aspects of work that a professional SEO company does out as well.

These are all quite specialist aspects which would require an experienced and educated company to manage.

Getting back to your points, some websites and target keywords can be just 'done' by an SEO and left, of course there are many examples of this and I know TIN on here has performed this service many times before as his many good comments left for him show.

If I could give any one looking for an SEO some advice to take to heart it would be that SEO is a cycle which often never ends. Sure you can spend a lot of time and resources at a websites creation to give it as good a head start up the rankings as possible, and in some cases that will be enough for a while, in other case more work is required to get and then keep these rankings, this could be monthly, yearly or even bi yearly, who knows?

If there was one answer to SEO, one way to 'fix' a site so it had 'good seo' then everyone who bought this service would in theory have the 1st ranking place in Google. This is not possible, there is a ranking system on search engines, and as long as this ranking system exists, and it is beneficial to be at the top of, then there will be other websites attempting to get there.

This is true for every keyword and search term, only the level of competition changes.

Darren

directmarketingadvice · Jan 14, 2007

Sandpetra

If I am optimising your site for your chosen keywords, how can I possibly know if the optimisation work I am carrying out is working? I check it every day!!! If it's not working, over time, I tweak my efforts. I want paid for it!!!!

(snip)

Just like a good hairdresser - You are paying for:

1. My experience.
2. My skill.
3. The hours

Actually, I don't pay my barber for his time, I pay for the result called a "haircut".

If electrician A took 3 hours to diagnose and fix an problem, but electrician B only took one hour, I wouldn't pay A 3 times what I'd pay B.

In fact, I'd probably not pay him a penny more because his inability to solve the problem quickly didn't add any value to my life.

So, while I'd expect you to factor your time into any quote (after all, you want a good return on your time), if I could find an SEO who required less "trial and error" and could get it "right" more quickly, he could probably give me a lower quote and still charge more per hour.

And I wouldn't feel short changed.

GOOGLE CHANGES EVERY DAY!!!

Well, this gets back to my point/question:

"Tin, another professional SEO, has posted in the past that he has clients who he SEO'd one time years ago and they're still up there."

If "google changes every day" (do you mean the algo or just the serps?), how come these sites are still there?

Or are you suggesting that Tin isn't giving us the real story? (or that I misunderstood his posts)

I remember bulding a wee site for some new start biz for £750. With that cash, i said I would build the site and promote it to the search engines for him. I also optimised the site for his chosen keyword term and done a couple of hours getting decent quality sites to link to him.

Within 4 weeks he was in Google and on the first page for that term. Whoopee!

Do you know what? 6 months later he phoned me and said "I am slipping down Google, now on second page" - but you said you would optimise it for me!

For £750 he expected to get a website (which I ended up losing money on) and stay top on Google for a competitive search term, for ever, even though I FULLY EXPLAINED TO HIM this was a short term seo boost, to see if it was worth him to pay me for continual seo, when he sold his products for £500 a pop!!!

Natrually I told this guy to piss off!

That's a heartwarming story.

1. Client gives SEO money expecting certain results.
2. Clients expectations not met.
3. Client disappointed.
4. SEO tells client to "piss off".
5. SEO uses public forum to mock the client's lack of understanding of SEO.

I realise where you're coming from and most of us have encountered client's with unreasonable expectations.

However, it's not the client's fault he doesn't understand how SEO works.

I'm not thick but, 4 pages into a thread about what "you should get from an SEO company", I still don't understand why we have one (respected) SEO saying he does one-off, long-lasting SEO and a bunch of other SEOs saying that SEO needs to be ongoing if it's going to last for competitive terms.

So, I've actually got quite a lot of empathy for clients who are confused about what they should expect from SEO.

However, rather than give up now, I'll have one last go at provoking some sort of meaningful answer to this conundrum:

"would it be fair to say that Tin knows how to get a site to p1 and stay there with one-off SEO, but the rest of you guys don't?"

Steve

JustOneUK · Jan 14, 2007

SteveGibson said:
"would it be fair to say that Tin knows how to get a site to p1 and stay there with one-off SEO, but the rest of you guys don't?"

Nope.

Even Tin wouldn't guarantee a customer to get a site to no1, because you just never know, maybe if the competition was poor you could more or less guarantee page 1 or even top 5 placement.

Being top for a search like "mobile phones" could be worth millions to a company, do you think you could get a site to no1 and keep it there for a one off fee of £50?

Google does change everyday because new websites are added. SEO is dynamic...ie:it changes, if you are unaware of the term try wikipedia.

SteveGibson said:
I'll have one last go at provoking some sort of meaningful answer to this conundrum:

We will keep trying to explain in in English for you then.

James.

I, Brian · Jan 14, 2007

Steve, it really does depend on individual client requirements, and what sort of markets are being competed in.

A problem with a thread like this is that it's working with generalities, but client requirements are incredibly diverse.

Some companies are simply looking for a very niche presence. But some companies - as Darren highlights - are targeting entire markets where constant development is required to keep ahead of strong competition.

Because of this, SEO is always going to encompass different service levels with very different goals, hence why it's impossible to compare these.

Hope that helps.

darren atkinson · Jan 14, 2007

SteveGibson said:
"would it be fair to say that Tin knows how to get a site to p1 and stay there with one-off SEO, but the rest of you guys don't?"

Steve

I think its fair to say that most of your points are about somebody who has successfully managed to SEO some websites that needed no further work.

I don't know Tin personally but I expect he would be the first to say that this approach will not work in some cases.

Look at it this way.

Suppose Tin seo's your website and gets you to the top of google for a certain keyword which gives you good leads and sales. Now suppose a competitor of yours hires Tin to do the same for them. (please forget the ethical implications as many seo's often stick to only 1 client of each industry)

Do you think Tin would be unable to beat his previous work and seo a site to get higher rankings, I suspect he probably could. If 5 or 10 competitors of yours all got their act together and produced better sites and 'better seo' then you would have a need for some more work top push your site back to the top.

This is what happens in many industries for many keywords. Not all of them but certainly some. The difference between 1 / 2 rankings and 6 / 7 can be literally thousands of visitors per week or month. Businesses clued up realise this.

One of my clients is in an industry like this and although I doubt I will work with them forever, they do require a lot of my time as there are around 7 - 8 other companies in the same field, going for the same keywords which all employee some form of SEO company. The majority of these companies have also been trading online for 5 - 6 years as well so it is harder competition initially.

On the other hand, I managed to get a website for a service based company to occupy the 1st and 2nd positions for ALL targeted keywords in under 6 - 7 months from conception. (The time would have been much quicker except the site was brand new and suffered time penalties on Google)

With no other work the site still occupies the top slots roughly 1.5 years later.

The point is, websites are all unique and require a unique solution.

Just because you have heard about some sites getting top rankings then never needing touching again, doesn't mean this is true for all.

Again, not wanting to drag Tin into this too much as I have never met or spoken with him (except the odd seo post now and again) I think if he could seo any site to the top of the rankings and then no further work would be required at all then he would be a million if not billionaire by now. (He may be, I don't know)

Darren

directmarketingadvice · Jan 14, 2007

Google does change everyday because new websites are added. SEO is dynamic...ie:it changes, if you are unaware of the term try wikipedia.

James

Is there really a need to be rude?

I think you can be a bigger man than that.

Steve

directmarketingadvice · Jan 14, 2007

Darren

Your hypothetical argument is interesting. And, if I knew the answer to that question I wouldn't have bothered posing the question I posed on this thread.

If 5 or 10 competitors of yours all got their act together and produced better sites and 'better seo' then you would have a need for some more work top push your site back to the top.

That's clearly true.

Lets imagine there was an SEO that could do better work than almost every other SEO - maybe he had such a fantastic grasp of the heart of the google algorithm that he knows exactly what he is doing - then can get a particular site up to the top of page 1.

And, because he is so far ahead of the competition, only 2 or 3 SEOs could challenge that position.

Then, the site would remain in the top 3 for a very, very long time.

In which case, I'd imagine the site wouldn't need any ongoing SEO.

Now, obviously, that would be an extreme example, but I think there's a question here of how easy (or difficult) it is for "SEO A" to trump the work of "SEO B".

This can't be a constant and must surely be dependent on the skills and quality of work done by A and B.

Steve

darren atkinson · Jan 14, 2007

SteveGibson said:
This can't be a constant and must surely be dependent on the skills and quality of work done by A and B.

Steve

You are correct in a sense. A better SEO guy will more often than not be able to produce better, possibly longer lasting results than a lower skilled one.

If this is your point then you are correct, but isn't this the same as many industries?

Sorry to keep going back to seemingly unrelated examples, but if your car had a fault and you took it to a garage for repair, the level of repair could vary depending on the individual mechanics skills. Unless you know, or are recommended a good mechanic then you could be taking a risk of shoddy work or being ripped off.

I think everyone can see that service levels for virtually any service depends on the skills of the person providing the service.

The difference with SEO is that there is more to take into account.

For instance, you might have 2 websites identical in every aspect including both content, layout, url names, everything. Both are completely new i.e. no links at all. To optimise and list highly for search term A you would need to do certain things, to optimise the other site for search term B might need a different approach. This is because term A might be easier to acheive than B, term A may be the top listing for 'hairdressers leeds', whereas search term B could be just the term 'hairdressers' indicating a national audience. Term A and B may be completely unrelated ie 'hairdressers leeds' 'mechanics london'. The point is they could be anything, and as long as they are different a unique approach must be undertaken for each term.

The above example is unrealistic as you would never have 2 identical websites, but if you think about it this would make an even more custom solution to answer.

Yes there are general techniques which all good seo's employee, but the level of different aspects needed is unique. This is why prices are often based on custom solutions.

Also different seos use different techniques, and produce different results, on different time scales. Some prefer to quickly boost a sites ratings with little thought for long term rankings, whereas others will virtually rebuild a website and all associated seo work to try and achieve longer term positioning.

Hope this helps clear some of the points up a little.

Darren

JustOneUK · Jan 14, 2007

SteveGibson said:
Lets imagine there was an SEO that could do better work than almost every other SEO - maybe he had such a fantastic grasp of the heart of the google algorithm that he knows exactly what he is doing - then can get a particular site up to the top of page 1.

And, because he is so far ahead of the competition, only 2 or 3 SEOs could challenge that position.

Then, the site would remain in the top 3 for a very, very long time.

a) Nope. Unless he could predict every single upcoming change in Googles algorithm, if not his site may disappear and the other SEO's sites could feature higher.

b) Nope. The other SEO's could be working on 10 sites each and blow the other from the first page completely

c) Nope. Any site could lose a whole stack of links at a moments notice, and drop like a stone, whilst others could gain a whole load (who will track that for you?) All you need is something viral, a really fantastic website/product or something new/innovative and you could easily make it to no1 naturally without much SEO intervention. (if Youtube is not on page1 for 'online video' I will eat my hat)....off to check.....

Edit> I forgot to mention whether or not it would be within anyones budget to employ this #1 in the world SEO that you are referring to, because if he /she could achieve what you are implying (as mentioned by Darren) they wouldn't be working for the small guy anymore as they would be a billionaire.

I am not too bad at SEO

but I couldn't get your site to the top of Google for the term "ART".... ever.

James.

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