Retailer refused to sell goods

tree568 · Dec 11, 2012

If you go into a shop and buy a large quantity of a particular item, and the retailer hasn't advertised any volume restrictions, are they within their rights to refuse to sell to you on the basis that they would rather keep the goods in question so they can sell them to their other customers?

Can they just refuse to sell you the goods, for no reason at all? As in they are prepared to sell other people those goods but not you?

Newchodge · Dec 11, 2012

Yes they can.

tree568 · Dec 11, 2012

While I understand that the customer going into a store to buy something is an invitation to treat and the shop keeper then has to offer to sell the goods for the transaction to continue, the impression I got in this particular case was that the shop keeper didn't want to sell us the items (he is from a well known chain of stores) because he wasn't happy that we were buying them for disadvantaged children who couldn't read well (as opposed to being gifts for Christmas).

He gave me the impression that he wanted to reserve the items in question for people who celebrate Christmas rather than for people like me who clearly don't (something he seemed to infer both from my surname and the way one of us looked). He even went so far as to say that these restrictions on quantity (not advertised within the store or on the website)were per customer, but in our case he treated us as one customer, not two, i.e. he didn't want to sell anything to the person from a minority background who was with me.

I doubt if he could claim that the chain he worked for had this policy because we had recently bought a large quantity of a similar item from them online, a sale which just sailed on through, no mention of quantity restrictions.

I feel I have both been discriminated against, adn humiliated. Indeed, the other person working there really got into it and treated our attempts to buy as an opportunity to make loud inquiries of the manager as to whether we were "allowed" to buy the items we were substituting. To say I was embarrassed was an understatement. I note it was distressing for another customer, also from an ethnic minority, who looked upset and left the shop while we were there.

Is there really nothing I can do about this?

Spongebob · Dec 11, 2012

It's their shop - they can sell to or refuse to sell to whomever they like, so long as they are not in breach of equality legislation.

Newchodge · Dec 11, 2012

There is nothing to stop you writing to the manager of the shop to complain, or, if it was the manager who acted this way, to the regional manager. I would focus the complaint on the attitude rather than the refusal to sell. The attitude seems extermely strange, to say the least.

Incdentally, the invitation to treat stuff starts with the shop display, you make the offer by trying to pay, and they accept by taking your money. Or not, as on this occasion.

tree568 · Dec 11, 2012

Spongebob said:
It's their shop - they can sell to or refuse to sell to whomever they like, so long as they are not in breach of equality legislation.

I have just had a look at this particular legislation. I would say this almost certainly applies in our case because we shop a lot with this particular retailer and this is the first time in several years of dealing with this particular chain of stores anyone has refused to sell us something based on the quantity we are purchasing.

But I question whether or not the shop is "their shop", notwithstanding it was the manager of this particular store who was refusing to sell us the items. We were in a fairly "white" part of the country. It was pretty clear why the person in question was refusing to sell us the items, particularly when he didn't want to offer the person with me, the same terms as he had offered me. He literally said "I don't regard you as two separate customers." As in the person with me wasn't a separate human being, in his own right.

Citizens Advice have said to us we should be referring this matter to the police. Are breaches of the Equality Act a criminal matter?

patientlady · Dec 11, 2012

Oh dear I wasnt there of course, but you have asked for advice on this forum. Are you absolutely sure this is descrimination and just not 'over purchase' and that you might have got the wrong end of the stick! If you have this wrong it can ruin peoples lives. If the police are involved there will be no end!
Many times for example we have bought special offers on alcohol,( for re sale ) in large well known supermarkets and have been restricted to how many we can buy whether alone or a couple. Iceland, Tesco etc do it all the time (without explanation)
All I am saying please be sure of your allegations...

tree568 · Dec 11, 2012

patientlady said:
Oh dear I wasnt there of course, but you have asked for advice on this forum. Are you absolutely sure this is descrimination and just not 'over purchase' and that you might have got the wrong end of the stick! If you have this wrong it can ruin peoples lives. If the police are involved there will be no end!
Many times for example we have bought special offers on alcohol,( for re sale ) in large well known supermarkets and have been restricted to how many we can buy whether alone or a couple. Iceland, Tesco etc do it all the time (without explanation)
All I am saying please be sure of your allegations...

I was all along at the point of not being 100% sure until the manager refused to sell to the man who was with me, saying that he regarded us as "one customer". This was after he had said their was a limit "per person". Plus it is so not the policy of this particular chain of stores to restrict the amounts purchased. Not online nor from their stores.

In the case of places like Tesco, Asda and the like, they usually put notices saying what the limits are. I saw one the other day saying (alcohol) "Limit: 3 cases (cases, mind you!) per customer". Costco have limits all over their store. But in the case of this particular retailer I have never seen limits places on their items. Nor would I expect to. They don't sell "loss leader" types of stuff. Alcohol is a bit like medicine. There are safety issues involved. If you go into Boots and try to buy 36 packets of Nurofen or some other over the counter medicine, it's quite likely they might not sell that quantity to you.

Newchodge · Dec 11, 2012

I think the police would only be interested if you were alleging harrassment or abuse, trather than discrimination.

Have a look here for guidance on what you can do

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/public...ity-act-publications/complaints-Equality-Act/

patientlady · Dec 11, 2012

Hi
Well when referring to Iceland I wasnt thinking of alcohol I was thinking of baked beans! From the comment you have made regarding one per customer and referrring to your friend (sorry I have not cut and pasted your exact comments) at no point do I think that is disriminatory if, the manager was trying to save some stock for other customers. Hard to know as we only have half the info but say the retailer has put an advert in the local paper advertising this product and then all the product is bought by you, he has wasted his 'loss leader advertising' having forgotten to put the restrictive notice, he was maybe covering his back!
Can I suggest you pop back into the shop and have a word with the manager in person as I really feel as mentioned above if you have misunderstood or have this wrong in any way, getting the police involved is very serious! Once accusations have been made, they cannot be reversed!
You obviously feel strongly about this having been to Citizens advice, but please be sure these comments were 100% meant in the way you have taken them...

Billmccallum · Dec 11, 2012

tree568 said:
If you go into a shop and buy a large quantity of a particular item.....

If you do this, the retailer would most likely assume that you are from a competitor and buying his stock to sell in your shop, probably at a higher price.

IF, this is what he/she thinks, then it would not be unusual to refuse to sell, no mattter who was buying.

From what you have said, there was no mention of race, religion, sex discrimination, simply that they did not wnat you to buy a large volume of stock...treating two customers who are shopping together as one ciustomer would not be unreasonable in this regard.

Chris Ashdown · Dec 11, 2012

tree568 said:
. We were in a fairly "white" part of the country. It was pretty clear why the person in question was refusing to sell us the items, particularly when he didn't want to offer the person with me, the same terms as he had offered me. He literally said "I don't regard you as two separate customers." As in the person with me wasn't a separate human being, in his own right.

?

If he has seen you both together walking and talking around the store then he was probably simply saying he was not treating you both as two seperate customers but as one trying to get around his restriction of quantity

PrestonLad · Dec 11, 2012

Chris Ashdown said:
If he has seen you both together walking and talking around the store then he was probably simply saying he was not treating you both as two seperate customers but as one trying to get around his restriction of quantity

Tree.. I've got to agree with Chris. I get the impression that you have gone to buy up large quantities of a special offer item... for very ethical reasons. But the shopkeeper has refused (legitimately) - and you're upset and frustrated because you aren't buying for profit (as the retailer probably suspects)- and perhaps... and I really mean perhaps... you're not being completely objective as a result.

Looking at it from the retailer's viewpoint, they may often have people trying to hoover up stock off their shelves... and if it's a special promotion, it is not good for the shop if a single person buys the lot.

It sounds like they didn't treat you sufficiently sensitively - and they may well be guilty of very poor customer service... and deserve a dressing down from their seniors.

But just because the friend with you was visibly from an ethnic minority does, on the face of it, have no bearing. You seem to be hanging a lot on this "treating you as one customer". The language you use in one post implies to me that you think the manager was treating your friend as a second-class human being.... but as Chris says, it's reasonable to lump you all together as one customer, whatever the creed or colour.

There may be more to the story, but from what you've said, I concur with the poster who expressed concern that the police are involved.

Time to draw breath... and look for compromise and an amicable solution... unless something truly shocking was going on in that shop.

OldWelshGuy · Dec 11, 2012

it sounds to me as if you are playing the race card, especially with your claim for persecution because your friend was of an Ethnic minorty (not sure what the product was, or why you were buying it). You mentioned something about underpriviliged kids, and not celbrtating Christmas, and not buying them for the purpose they were intended.

These are major material facts, but you have decided it was based on race, which is a real shame.

Can you please lay out what the special offer was, and why the guy believed you were buying them for the wrong reasons, and the actual reason you were buying them for?

As has been stated, alleging racism is a real dangerous route to go down. I appreciate that this may have caused you embarassment, but your complaint to me reads not about the fact there was no Qty restriction advertised, but more to do with racial discrimination. The question you have to ask yourself is did it really happen? You have given it more thought and are now fitting in things to back up your claim of it being racial. the 'my friend is form an Ethnic minority, they treated us as one customer, so they were discriminating against us.

That is plain wrong. My wife and I have been treated as one customer, but because we are both white, under your system it wouldn't be racial discrimination because we are white?

Discrimination means to treat people DIFFERENTLY (not unfairly without bias).

I am really sorry that you have suffered this experience, but you really need to think long and hard about the next step, because this isn't something that should be done lightly.

Cylon · Dec 11, 2012

tree568 said:
We were in a fairly "white" part of the country. It was pretty clear why the person in question was refusing to sell us the items, particularly when he didn't want to offer the person with me, the same terms as he had offered me. He literally said "I don't regard you as two separate customers." As in the person with me wasn't a separate human being, in his own right.

By "white" do you mean a lot of snowfall or are you showing the race card because you feel your freind didn't get the same treatment.

Would two white people been treated in the same way, if you get chance try getting two white people to go into the shop for exactly the same items and see if they are treated differently to you. As its a white part of town you should have no difficulty finding a few.

Has your freind been back on their own to try again. ?

deniser · Dec 11, 2012

A friend of mine was recently refused the purchase of a bottle of perfume - because she said it was a present for her teenage daughter. Still trying to work out why...

There must be a reason for this but it isn't obvious. Could it be the same with the item you bought? Knowing what the item is would help.

OldWelshGuy · Dec 11, 2012

I have highlighted the things that struck me as wanting to know more about, and made comment in red

tree568 said:
While I understand that the customer going into a store to buy something is an invitation to treat and the shop keeper then has to offer to sell the goods for the transaction to continue, the impression I got in this particular case was that the shop keeper didn't want to sell us the items (he is from a well known chain of stores) because he wasn't happy that we were buying them for disadvantaged children who couldn't read well (as opposed to being gifts for Christmas). What were they and why were you buying them?

He gave me the impression that he wanted to reserve the items in question for people who celebrate Christmas rather than for people like me who clearly don't dependent on what the items were and what the offer was of course.(something he seemed to infer both from my surname did he get this from your card, or was there a requirement to provide it for some other reason? and the way one of us looked). He even went so far as to say that these restrictions on quantity (not advertised within the store or on the website)were per customer, but in our case he treated us as one customer, not two, i.e. he didn't want to sell anything to the person from a minority background who was with me. But equally you could claim he was happy to sell to the other person but not you? he treated you as a single person and refused to sell to you as a group, is that right?

I doubt if he could claim that the chain he worked for had this policy because we had recently bought a large quantity of a similar item from them online, Why did you buy these items online then need more? a sale which just sailed on through, no mention of quantity restrictions.

I feel I have both been discriminated against, adn humiliated. Indeed, the other person working there really got into it and treated our attempts to buy as an opportunity to make loud inquiries of the manager as to whether we were "allowed" to buy the items we were substituting. could you explain 'substituting please? To say I was embarrassed was an understatement. I note it was distressing for another customer, also from an ethnic minority, who looked upset and left the shop while we were there.

Is there really nothing I can do about this?

Now I have to say that based on what you have said, there is an equal possibility that you WERE discriminated against, but the information and circumstance really isn't clear enough

SillyJokes · Dec 11, 2012

You probably have no idea the effect of buying all their special offer stock has on the store.

If you are the manager and have a special offer in the window that attracts customers and one person (or two together ) come in and hoover up the lot, the rest of the day you will be dealing with angry people who have been lured into the shop under false pretences. They won't believe your next offer either and so it undermines the effectiveness of the offers and the trustworthiness of the brand.

On the show about poundland last month the new £1 shop went into poundland and bought all their special offers and then sold them in their own store.

Maybe it should have been handled differently but frankly you had a clever idea which has ceased to work. Just get over it and think of a new idea rather than blaming the store manager.

Aren't shops struggling enough already?

internetspaceships · Dec 11, 2012

I don't get the bit that involves discrimination just because you didn't get what you wanted.

OldWelshGuy · Dec 11, 2012

That was why I asked the questions in red, to try and find out if there was another possibility.

Suzuki · Dec 11, 2012

Nothing to see here.... just the usual silly games of a minority not getting their way and instantly playing the race card.

I think stuff like this just leads to actual discrimination later so its all a bit stupid. I don't hire in the UK any more but if I did any black or asian name cv's would be instantly binned. I'd consider women, but would certainly think twice.

At least if you go with a guy who's white & married (to a woman) you're not going to get the discrimination nonsense flung in your face later

MikeJ · Dec 11, 2012

Suzuki said:
I don't hire in the UK any more but if I did any black or asian name cv's would be instantly binned. I'd consider women, but would certainly think twice.

What a lovely post.

OldWelshGuy · Dec 11, 2012

The point being made was that people who wrongly play the race card,are actually causing racist behavior

MikeJ · Dec 12, 2012

Great, moderators excusing racism.

Refusing to hire non-whites because a few may play the race card is no different to not hiring whites because some are racist. It's illegal.

This is supposed to be a business forum, not a recruiting ground for the BNP.

Talay · Dec 12, 2012

Invitation to treat and offer for sale is the relevant legislation I understand.

Suzuki · Dec 12, 2012

MikeJ said:
Great, moderators excusing racism.

Refusing to hire non-whites because a few may play the race card is no different to not hiring whites because some are racist. It's illegal.

This is supposed to be a business forum, not a recruiting ground for the BNP.

Its my opinion, not the opinion of a moderator or the forum. If you don't like it theres an ignore button and you'll never need to see another one.

Or maybe the mods could just block everything you don't agree with?

OldWelshGuy · Dec 12, 2012

MikeJ said:
Great, moderators excusing racism.

Refusing to hire non-whites because a few may play the race card is no different to not hiring whites because some are racist. It's illegal.

This is supposed to be a business forum, not a recruiting ground for the BNP.

I am not excusing anything. He posted his view, I simply posted what I believed HE meant, not me, not UKBF me personally.

I am not saying he is right or wrong, I merely commented on what he has posted.

Did you note the irony in that your disgust ran only to racism, when his post was also sexist, AND homophobic.

Also I believe holding racist views are not illegal? Fel free to correct me if I am wrong.,He started with 'I do not employ anyone in the UK any more', so these are merely hypothetical views, and as such are not

You also failed to comment on his opening statement of
"I think stuff like this just leads to actual discrimination later so its all a bit stupid". Have you noticed that since challenged, the OP has gone to ground?

As I said, I am not defending racism, because no racism has occurred, this is a statement of opinion from a NON UK employer.

I just think we should be wiling to debate the issue rather than everyone playing the race card. This is after all an enployers forum first and foremost.

SillyJokes · Dec 12, 2012

where's the ignore button again?

Cornish Steve · Dec 12, 2012

This really is an ambiguous situation. It may be a shop manager protecting his business (as SillyJokes suggested), or it could be a private and deliberate act of discrimination - one of thousands that take place every day but are too subtle to prosecute.

A few weeks ago, my wife was clearly discriminated against based on gender. It upset her, annoyed her, and she mentioned it to others who may have used that service provider. The answer, as far as we are concerned, is to take our business to another company and suggest to our friends that they do the same. If it had been a company we'd used for a while, we could have written to the owners.

Reading through the thread, I would come to several conclusions:

1) Be careful of allegations you can't prove. They can come back to bite you.
2) What transpired could be totally innocent and based on practical business decisions.
3) No matter what laws are passed, some people do discriminate; it's a fact of life. How we react to such incidents to some extent defines us - and it is generally better to treat them as "water off a duck's back".

Incidentally, all the best as you look to help disadvantaged children over the holiday period.

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