SEO: Getting into the top 3 of Google.

Young Recruit

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Sep 27, 2012
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Hi Guy's,

I'm wondering how SEOers quantify the cost of ranking high for a particular topic.

Hypothetical question:

The owner of business A has X amount of resources available to him (money, time knowledge, staff, etc). He wants to know if it would be possible for him to get his website into the top three rankings of Google for a particular topic with the resources he has available.

What are the key things an SEO guy would be looking at to determine how expensive or difficult it would be to get into the top three within a six to twelve month time frame?

JA
 
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Faevilangel

It's all down to time, and the resources the owner wants to throw at the site e.g.

1 person, working 10 hours a week is cheaper than 5 people working 10 hours a week

The more the client has to spend, the more resources can be used on the project

The time taken to get a site to the project goal, will depend on the competition for the goal, and the resources being used for the goal.

As Paul said, ranking for accounts in london will be harder than something like accountants in Barry (small welsh town).

Most SEO's should be able to give a ball park figure for costings and time to do the project but please remember, it can take longer, you're never guaranteed the position and you can quickly lose the position (especially in competitive keywords) if you stop doing the work on the site.

SEO isn't a quick fix, it's a long term project which should deliver results.
 
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Young Recruit

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Will depend on the phrase(s) they want to appear under.

If they want something general where there is lots of competition like "Accountants in London" then will be a lot more expensive than "Piano Tuners in Oxford".

Hi Paul,

I understand that some key words are more expensive due to competition.

My question is more about the factors an SEO guy would look at to determine the cost.

Using 'Accountants in London' as an example, how would you determine the cost of getting ranked number one for 'Accountants in London'? What process does an SEO guy go through to come up with a cost?

JA
 
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eventdomain

The key things are Money and the time it takes for SEO to 'start working' - which is a long time in most cases (for the half-decent keywords) - un-popular words take far longer.

But SEO is just a fraction of what businesses spend time on. Other activities such as advertising actually takes up the most budget with many spending 120k a year on it or more. I don't believe its possible to build a biz on pure SEO alone and you'd be crazy to try, as there's fortunes being spent on this just to own the top spots for the best keywords.

In reality, I'd forget hoping to rank like, for instance, Expedia's or Target.com's keywords, as huge players like these will crush you. The mis-information by many SEO's is frightening, I've been doing the web thing for many years, putting many sites into action and have never, ever seen SEO results like what is claimed by these self-appointed one-man band outfits.

I dont like to brag, but must to make the point. My websites built up a following, attract thousands of page requests and deliver hundreds of thousands of visitors every year - and the great thing is my traffic is virtually all free, without expensive SEO work, seriously, we don't spend squat on SEO, a bit on advertising but mainly we concentrate on building value-added services. Our newest site has gained over 4000 free visitors a month via ZERO spend, these 4000 visitors transfers to our other websites increasing that traffic to 10'000 a month etc etc etc....

Another site we had live was getting over 2000 visitors a month at start. But basically there's a variety of ways to increase traffic without hefty SEO bills each month, for minimal spend outlay.
 
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terryuk

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Hi Paul,

I understand that some key words are more expensive due to competition.

My question is more about the factors an SEO guy would look at to determine the cost.

Using 'Accountants in London' as an example, how would you determine the cost of getting ranked number one for 'Accountants in London'? What process does an SEO guy go through to come up with a cost?

JA

Using that as an example, you may well find an SEO company in London charges double the price outside of London.

Running a good competitor analysis report should help you find what you are missing to start competing but it's just to find the right person to deliver that.

Different companies / individuals charge different rates with mostly different opinions, methods and so on - I would contact a couple to get an idea of what costings your looking at, and who fits the suit.
 
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Hi Paul,

I understand that some key words are more expensive due to competition.

My question is more about the factors an SEO guy would look at to determine the cost.


JA

I would be looking at competition for the terms required and the amount of profit my intervention would bring for a given amount of work,as I only take on projects where I get paid by profit results.
 
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downsouth

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I dont like to brag, but must to make the point. My websites built up a following, attract thousands of page requests and deliver hundreds of thousands of visitors every year - and the great thing is my traffic is virtually all free, without expensive SEO work, seriously, we don't spend squat on SEO, a bit on advertising but mainly we concentrate on building value-added services. Our newest site has gained over 4000 free visitors a month via ZERO spend, these 4000 visitors transfers to our other websites increasing that traffic to 10'000 a month etc etc etc....

Another site we had live was getting over 2000 visitors a month at start. But basically there's a variety of ways to increase traffic without hefty SEO bills each month, for minimal spend outlay.

in laymans terms would you care to share some things you've done, how they've been done, time taken etc
 
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Young Recruit

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in laymans terms would you care to share some things you've done, how they've been done, time taken etc

Some quick thoughts. I think Event Domain is quite a unique product and so creating an awareness of his product via advertising, WOM, etc, was more important than SEO for him. People will google his brand name as opposed to a topic. In essence he opened up a niche that not many people were competing for.

JA
 
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eventdomain

in laymans terms would you care to share some things you've done, how they've been done, time taken etc

Here's the basics of what we did:

We began as a youngish team of 3, our ideas stem from problems we had getting certain information, knew we could do it better and motivation at the start was NOT to make money at all. Looked at how content was utilised and knew the more pages we had, the more each one will be searched. This shaped what the company is eg: big engines that offer content.

We knew general search was big - but was too crowded and how motivated will we still be after a few years trying to beat AOL, G, Yahoo etc - wasn't going to happen so needed an edge and found it.

We went free for about 3 years, but gave away far too much for free, so went paid in 08 - but our model (like others) was built on the freebie giveaway, which worked quite well, and we like giving away free stuff, actually giving 500k worth of free links..... trouble is this don't pay the bills you know... but can survive with 1 engine using a partial paid model so its cool. Basically, the freebie method worked very well, getting us 1'695 sign-ups so suggest more sites do this as it truly works, and wouldnt say it if it didn't.

Trouble is, the freebie option brings hassles too and the hassle might have been too much for the gain - but it does work, and can't praise it enough - IF you get the free element right. I think we got it partially right, but other elements didn't work as we hoped, and would loved to have kept it free for another 2 years, but spam was harsh and that ruined it for the rest. We wanted pure niche companies, as was the whole point of the site.

Our target was 25'000 advertisers, working off the PR and links accumulated - but ended up with 2000 sign-ups, with maybe 300 paying.

2002 - Acquired directory and database, left sitting while wondering how to use it. Over 3000 businesses and content available to us - boosted our content to 5000 companies.

Links continued to increase to 43'000 mixed bag of low ranked to on-target links. Site not what we wanted to build - made biggest mistake of career by changing estblished domain name in error, lost nearly most links, left with about 2000 when switched to new domain.

Year 2 (2006), 636'000 visitors hit the site, maybe about 50% bookmarked month on month, which helped with traffic flow. Continued to allow free sign-ups to build the content up, in 2007 built 2nd directory, merged the 2 increasing content to 6000ish. Site NOT SEO'd at this point.

Year 3 (2007), traffic hits 3000 per month, bookmarks increased.

Year 4 (2008) Major press interest, some paid releases in niche magazines.

Year 5 (2009/10) More press stuff 22 other local press mentions - on the back of our Regional Finalist position for Innovation. Launched marketing forum, built upto 2000 posts, forum currently offline due to work load.

Year 6 - 2010, first internet award win, 2nd feature story in local press. 2nd Regional Final spot - more local press.

National finalist spot for category of Virtual Business of the Year.

began blogging a bit more, adding some SEO articles but mostly concentrating on our achivements and adding services to bolster our offering at no extra charge.

Year 7 - 2011, between 09 & 11, traffic delivered per client to 300 visitors on average. Page requests to 12.5 million, visitors delivered to 2 million. Delivered 800 visitors to one client within 12 months.

2010 - expanded company with 2nd search engine, giving away 520'000 links. Engine gets local press coverage in 22 papers.

This was done on practically zero ad spend and minimal SEO input. Basically we used the media and content building to do this.
 
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Tin

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There are a number of factors that should always be considered before attempting to optimise a site to target the top positions and I'll try to put them into an order of priority:

Firstly and before you attempt to determine how expensive/difficult a ranking will be, you need to make absolutely sure that the keywords that are being targeted are the ones that will bring the biggest ROI, ie don't spend the money and more importantly time, chasing keywords that are costly only to find once the positions have been achieved that:-

a)the people searching for these keywords are not in 'buy' mode.
b)The product/service offered doesn't yield the necessary profit to cover the costs involved in attaining the positions.
or
c)the website itself is not effective in converting the traffic into buying customers.

Only once the above has been seriously considered is it worth determining how expensive and how long it will take to reach the top spots.

To do this you need to consider the competition for the keywords you're targeting. If targeting Geo specifics, as has been said above 'Accountants in London' will be a lot more difficult and therefore more expensive than 'Accountants in Barry'.

A good way to test the space is with a cheap PPC campaign, there's always adwords vouchers going around, where you can get your hands on some useful data that will help to determine the validity of keywords.

Don't forget though that there are no guarantees when it comes to Google, only educated guesses, the more educated the better but still a guess at the end of the day.

Ray
 
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Young Recruit

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You're excused :D

I wrote rather quickly. I meant his numbers are random and are not backed by reality. Take a look at his past posts and note the inconsistencies.

Then have a read of this, including the comments. ;)

Interesting.

For some reason I thought I remembered watching a TV program that congratulated ED about his innovative and clever website that his customers found invaluable. Seems like I must have imagined it!!

JA
 
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PPC cost is a good finger in the air test for competition of a term, and also the return on investment. If the cost is high doen to a fair depth of search, and all the other measurements stack up, then it is fair to say that there is money to be made there.

One way to test a market, is to grab the keywords and run a check on who is ranking for multiple terms across page 1. If the same names are on every term, then it is fair to say that they have a good handle on SEO, so you will be competing.

This is what you have tyo look at, once you grasp that even if there were on;y 10 sites being returned for a search term, they would all have page 1 rankings, EVEN IF they had done no SEO.

So in short, just because they are ranking page 1, doesn't mean they are competing to be there.

If there are 10 sites all employing a decent SEO company, then it WILL be competitive. This is what you need to look at, you need to look and see how many of them are ACTIVELY competing, not PASSIVELY competing.
 
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MA Consultancy

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Dec 7, 2012
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Quality and ranking of website,
The quality and ranking of the other websites that are already ranking high for those key words,
How competitive the key words are,
Are there other less competitive alternatives to those key words
What other SEO activities the business is already doing / willing to do,
What activities are the other competitors doing,
Are the other ways to generate traffic without organic high ranking,
etc.

I usually provide a free review of these things prior to under taking any work as to be able to estimate (from experience) how long it will take to get higher up the page rankings for the required keywords and therefore how much work is required and what therefore would the cost of that work be.

Regards,

Mike
 
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Alan

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    The only truely fair way to price and provide SEO is to ask the client how much do they want to spend a month, divide that by your hourly rate and do those number of hours work each month for the client.

    Of course, clients, especially smaller business would rather have a fixed price for a fixed result, which leads to the situation where some SEO companies take advantage of the lack of knowledge and take these businesses for a ride (note I didn't say all, but this is why we get 5 e-mails a day from anonymous gmail accounts making outrageous promises) . Which starts to make it a minefield for smaller businesses when selecting an SEO partner.


    The big issue is what works todays may not work in the future, so estimating results on out of date techniques is dangerous.
     
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    RedEvo

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    Google's spam team are on a never ending quest to improve the SERPs. 12 months ago a few hundred spun articles distributed on a private blog network could positively impact on a page's rankings. Although there are still schemes out there, some of which no doubt work, those days are over.

    This means site owners need to create sites that deserve to rank and that means developing a detailed understanding of the market you want to enter. Is there the will and financial resources to create a site that deserves to ran above the sites currently ranking in the space.

    As Tin has pointed out, doing the upfront work including PPC based research is the starting point and money well spent.

    d
     
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    SqueakyHinge

    REDEVO This means site owners need to create sites that deserve to rank and that means developing a detailed understanding of the market you want to enter. Is there the will and financial resources to create a site that deserves to ran above the sites currently ranking in the space.
    The premise has always been that of search engines wanting people to create sites that deserve to rank, this has always been the case.

    But sadly for many white hatters, yourself included it would seem :), there is still no need for people in <edited by mod> easy industries like accounting to spend thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands on internet marketing exercises, trying to become the 'authority' in the chosen field, with white hatter web companies, when ranking for a term like accountant in london isn't actually that difficult for your average seo that understands the onsite importance of late and has a few decent web properties to utilise.

    White hatting for <edited by mod> easy terms would be like dropping a nuke on the isle of man when a few tomahawkes would do the job.
     
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    SqueakyHinge

    Well i am a firm believer that the main money is in rankings. The cheaper you can obtain the rankings the better...

    There's no joy to be had spending a small fortune to get traffic that you could get for a fraction of the cost by being a dirtier shade of white.
     
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    There is no such thing as black or white hat any longer. All we have is whatever colour hat Google decide to put on people at any given time.

    Keep in mind that Googl released a video earlier this year of the top 6 mistakes SEO's make that can get a site into trouble. FOUR of those practices were hailed as 'best practice' by Matt Cutts only a few months previously.

    Google is a joke, they are hitting businesses for doing things they recommend you do, but change their mind later, only to penalise you retrospectively.

    Guest blogging will be the next big Google slap, even though it was on their list of recommended things to do to become an expert in your field!

    You can be wearing a white hat, but if google decide it is black, black it is!
     
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    Alan

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    Perhaps the SEO industry should unite and create their own search engine. Of course it would take of fantastically well as wil the combined might of all the seo world their own search engine would dominate google pages and hence make google useless.

    Every one would then need to use the new search engine an google would be fade away.

    Of course there would need to be a way of the new search engine enabling SEO companies to get income from site rankings.

    Hmmm....

    Just thinking.
     
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    terryuk

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    There is no such thing as black or white hat any longer. All we have is whatever colour hat Google decide to put on people at any given time.

    Keep in mind that Googl released a video earlier this year of the top 6 mistakes SEO's make that can get a site into trouble. FOUR of those practices were hailed as 'best practice' by Matt Cutts only a few months previously.

    Google is a joke, they are hitting businesses for doing things they recommend you do, but change their mind later, only to penalise you retrospectively.

    Guest blogging will be the next big Google slap, even though it was on their list of recommended things to do to become an expert in your field!

    You can be wearing a white hat, but if google decide it is black, black it is!

    I agree but often see them as an attitude not just an approach. I doubt a black hat would care if Google thought otherwise, but if your been busting away for them to say it's black hat then I wouldn't be too happy. Along with the rest.
     
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    DPA PPI Claims

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    Young Recruit - There are a lot of variables here but in my view it depends not on the rankings but on the business that would be created by the rankings.

    For me a new SEO client would be given an estimated traffic gained, estimated conversion rates and an estimated ROI based on the average sale price before any campaign is structured.

    We build up segments so for example if you want x amount of traffic which means x customers and x return we think this amount of hours is needed per month which equates to x.

    SEO is not about rankings, don't buy in to people who tell you that number 1 is the be all and end all. In some markets, being number 2 converts higher.

    As an example, letting a site that is offering 'reference' type material and is telling people that the service you are offering is the way forward can work wonders on conversions if you are number 2.

    Remember that if you are ranking number 1 for a shed loads of keywords but they are not getting searched and converting customers, whats the point!
     
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    Tin

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    Given equal titles and descriptions a site at No 1 will get 3,5 times the visitors of the No 2 site.

    Earl, is that coming out of stats released shortly after the AOL data leak in Aug 2006? If it is I think you'll find those stats have changed as a result of Google pulling Adwords ads from the right hand side to the top of the organics. If I remember correctly, the stats said that if a site ranked at #1 it'd see 47% of traffic compared to if it ranked at #2 it'd only see 13%.

    Subsequent thoughts suggest #1 sees 18% of traffic and #2 sees 11% because ad traffic pinches some of the landscape.
     
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