Limestone Associates scam.

sladeyboy · Jun 7, 2012

We had a phone call from Limestone associates in Feb asking to come into our Hair salon and meet up with us. I said that I was to busy to meet up but would talk on the phone. The man informed me that they were putting together a brochure to go in a local childrens play park with selected local businesses in. I negotiated a price of around £300 for a half page advert.

He then asked if he could meet up to sign the paperwork. I told him my wife would be in the salon to sign the next day. The guy turned up and quickly got my wife to sign the paperwork, seeming like he was in a rush to get it signed.

On 10 Feb 2012 a payment of £250 came off our credit card. I noticed this and assumed it was payment in full for the advert. Because the credit card statements are online only I normally only check them when im doing a vat return. Yesterday I noticed that payments had gone out for

10 Feb £250.00
25 Feb for £257.00
27 March for £257.00
25 May £371

Making a total of £1134

Having called Limestone they informed that it was a two year contract for a total of £450 per year. plus £114 for design.

1. I was never told it was a two year contract on the phone.
2. I negotiated a price of £300 for the advert. NOT £1134
3. Never knew anything about design costs which came to a further £114.

I then found this forum! I called up the company telling them that I found 100's of complaints about them and felt i was scammed by the sales rep on the phone. I also told them about the other companies they are linked with (DSM) to which she replied she had worked there for 4 years and never heard of such company!.

Has anybody actually taken this company to court yet and what were the results?. Just really hacked off that I have fallen for this scam.

I have spoken to the childrens play park who assured me that the brochure is coming and should be with them very soon.

Is this sort of selling normal, where you agree one thing over the phone yet when you sign the contract they just hope you dont see the real price and question it?????.

Any feedback would be great
Thanks

Doodle-Noodle · Jun 7, 2012

These companies seem to spring up all over the place using the same lines and scamming people - it's absolutely unbelievable that they can seemingly get away with it.
I've been had by a company called DSM Media in the past, similar thing but not quite so much money, they have caught out loads of small businesses. Complain to your credit card company and tell them you have been a victim of fraud - ask for a refund, they may be able to do it.
Contact your trading standards, police - and cancel your credit card if they have the details as they will probably carry on taking money out without your consent! Good luck - awful situation.

sladeyboy · Jun 7, 2012

Doodle-Noodle said:
These companies seem to spring up all over the place using the same lines and scamming people - it's absolutely unbelievable that they can seemingly get away with it.
I've been had by a company called DSM Media in the past, similar thing but not quite so much money, they have caught out loads of small businesses. Complain to your credit card company and tell them you have been a victim of fraud - ask for a refund, they may be able to do it.
Contact your trading standards, police - and cancel your credit card if they have the details as they will probably carry on taking money out without your consent! Good luck - awful situation.

Have contacted my credit card and they are sending me a form to fill out. But as the contract was signed (even though it was not even remotely close to what was verbally agreed) im not sure what will happen. We dont normally advertise but thought we would give this a go seeing as it was only £300 for the year (or so we thought!!) Feel so p**sed off that they can get away with this!

OldWelshGuy · Jun 7, 2012

so you agreed a price, then your wife re-negotiated it up to £1100? are the figures on the contract the same as the amount they took out? if yes and your wife has authority, then you are on a sticky wicket

10032012 · Jun 7, 2012

Just a tip for future sake... if you negotiate a deal (merely an non-binding invitation) and when trying to press ahead with it, if they appear in a rush... cancel the deal.

Also be aware that it wasn't a purchase of advertisement like a product where you might give your payment details over and thats all (excluding terms of sale etc)... it was a contractual agreement signed without being read.

Is it even a scam? I am not so sure. It was merely an expensive deal that you rushed into. OK, the salesperson obviously had a time limit hoping you would sign and not withdraw from the deal... but can limiting the time of a meeting really be a scam? I think... No!

You were tricked from little mind tweaks but not defrauded. What happened was your negotiation skills of a better price for yourself boosted your ego and due to the "value" you wanted this formally signed to say you had the upper hand - "i negotiated this deal" - and you left your wife to deal with it which as a big no-no.

As you negotiated it I assume she does the practical management side of the business and is less hot on this side of things. She wasn't a party to this deal - she was submissive to the extent that she would have signed away the salon to get "it dealt with" - not wholeheartedly involved just quickly getting the parasite out of the salon so she can run the business. The order here was pretty much "sign the document on my behalf" rather than be the decision maker, read the contract and sign if content.

I feel sorry for you both genuinely but running a business you should know, for example people coming into your salon will pay for services provided under a contractual terms of sale, BUT they aren't going to sign any form of contract in this process. Why would someone do the latter to buy advertising space?

This isn't any more of a scam then paying £5 for a can of coke in a very convenient location. Its extremely unfavourable - but you have the option not to buy one.

Ps The clue is in the name at the end of the day. Isn't limestone associated with cement? Bit of a strcky situation? (yeah I know doesn't quite work...)

sladeyboy · Jun 7, 2012

10032012 said:
Just a tip for future sake... if you negotiate a deal (merely an non-binding invitation) and when trying to press ahead with it, if they appear in a rush... cancel the deal.

Also be aware that it wasn't a purchase of advertisement like a product where you might give your payment details over and thats all (excluding terms of sale etc)... it was a contractual agreement signed without being read.

Is it even a scam? I am not so sure. It was merely an expensive deal that you rushed into. OK, the salesperson obviously had a time limit hoping you would sign and not withdraw from the deal... but can limiting the time of a meeting really be a scam? I think... No!

You were tricked from little mind tweaks but not defrauded. What happened was your negotiation skills of a better price for yourself boosted your ego and due to the "value" you wanted this formally signed to say you had the upper hand - "i negotiated this deal" - and you left your wife to deal with it which as a big no-no.

As you negotiated it I assume she does the practical management side of the business and is less hot on this side of things. She wasn't a party to this deal - she was submissive to the extent that she would have signed away the salon to get "it dealt with" - not wholeheartedly involved just quickly getting the parasite out of the salon so she can run the business. The order here was pretty much "sign the document on my behalf" rather than be the decision maker, read the contract and sign if content.

I feel sorry for you both genuinely but running a business you should know, for example people coming into your salon will pay for services provided under a contractual terms of sale, BUT they aren't going to sign any form of contract in this process. Why would someone do the latter to buy advertising space?

This isn't any more of a scam then paying £5 for a can of coke in a very convenient location. Its extremely unfavourable - but you have the option not to buy one.

Ps The clue is in the name at the end of the day. Isn't limestone associated with cement? Bit of a strcky situation? (yeah I know doesn't quite work...)

I believe this is a scam. I think they just would have agreed to any deal just to get their foot in the door and then hope that the person signing would not notice that the price was now 4 times higher than previously agreed. If you do a search for these companies: DSM media and quality foods online. You will see they are not the kind of companies you want to be dealing with. And they are all owned by the same person!. They knew from the start what they were doing. There is no way this advert is worth £1300 and they know it!

roydmoorian · Jun 7, 2012

sladeyboy said:
Have contacted my credit card and they are sending me a form to fill out. But as the contract was signed (even though it was not even remotely close to what was verbally agreed) im not sure what will happen. We dont normally advertise but thought we would give this a go seeing as it was only £300 for the year (or so we thought!!) Feel so p**sed off that they can get away with this!

Loose that credit card, cancel it and start again

10032012 · Jun 7, 2012

The easiest way is to get a prepaid credit card - they are getting increasingly common these days. Therefore if they decide to try and take more they have no chance.

OldWelshGuy · Jun 7, 2012

10032012 said:
The easiest way is to get a prepaid credit card - they are getting increasingly common these days. Therefore if they decide to try and take more they have no chance.

Thats what I do. but I have an account with no money in it, I transfer the cash in, make the payment and job done.

10032012 · Jun 7, 2012

OldWelshGuy said:
Thats what I do. but I have an account with no money in it, I transfer the cash in, make the payment and job done.

Me too! I learnt from my mistakes... (that is wrongly trusting a company who relied on gateway payments to take further payments - all this without a contract - civil dispute that the police and bank couldn't do anything about. Ended up getting new debit card to stop it after reversing the transactions and cancelling my old card. prepaid saves the hassle...)

AmazingGiftBoxes · Jun 7, 2012

That is why you need to check your statments every month, if you found out about it after the second payment you could have stoped it but now it is to late.

I get couple of phone calls a day, very similar to yours but I always tell them to send everything in the post.

Jerry D

mit74 · Jun 7, 2012

I can't believe people still fall for these advertising scams. Of course they've conned you, and 9 times out of 10 the brochure/leaflet/magazine is either something they've put together in 5minutes ripping logos from websites or looks pro but they only distribute to the people who actually bought an advert.
Did you even check out this company/guy before giving him your credit card details?

sladeyboy · Jul 3, 2012

mit74 said:
I can't believe people still fall for these advertising scams. Of course they've conned you, and 9 times out of 10 the brochure/leaflet/magazine is either something they've put together in 5minutes ripping logos from websites or looks pro but they only distribute to the people who actually bought an advert.
Did you even check out this company/guy before giving him your credit card details?

I have learnt the hard and expensive way here! I have just this morning taken delivery of the brochure. Again another lie has come to light. I explained I would only advertise with them on the understanding we had exclusivity and we were to be the only hair AND beauty salon on the brochure. Of course we have our nearest rival in it as well! Another lie to get us to go with them.

There are a lot of people on here saying they are taking them to court or are going to take them. Has anybody actually had any luck with any of them?

Also another thing that I found in the contract is that if you dont cancel the advert by the end of the first year by recorded delivery you are legally signed into another 3 years!!!!

If anybody wants to share the load im happy to take these conmen to court as they are clearly just trying to fleece small companies like myself.

Thanks

Psl · Jul 3, 2012

sladeyboy said:
I have learnt the hard and expensive way here! I have just this morning taken delivery of the brochure. Again another lie has come to light. I explained I would only advertise with them on the understanding we had exclusivity and we were to be the only hair AND beauty salon on the brochure. Of course we have our nearest rival in it as well! Another lie to get us to go with them.

There are a lot of people on here saying they are taking them to court or are going to take them. Has anybody actually had any luck with any of them?

Also another thing that I found in the contract is that if you dont cancel the advert by the end of the first year by recorded delivery you are legally signed into another 3 years!!!!

If anybody wants to share the load im happy to take these conmen to court as they are clearly just trying to fleece small companies like myself.

Thanks

Try this route as well as taking them to court.

A good number of these types of operations have been closed by the CIB and their Directors struck off.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....lvency.gov.uk/IES/companiesInvestigations.htm

Financial-Modeller · Jul 3, 2012

Surely the obvious message is Don't sign a contract without reading it!

You/your wife signed a legally binding agreement with a stranger and didn't read what they were agreeing to.

It sounds like you were conned but not defrauded.

Remember Caveat Emptor and if you don't know what it means, take 2 minutes to Google it to avoid these expensive situations again.

OldWelshGuy · Jul 3, 2012

An oral variance to a written contract is equally as valid if it can be proven.

Financial-Modeller · Jul 3, 2012

I'm not a lawyer and happy to be corrected, and I understand that an oral variance is legally binding if it is agreed by both parties after a contract is signed by both parties.

Here the written contract was signed after the conversation, and presumably supercedes the earlier conversation?

OldWelshGuy · Jul 3, 2012

No it would be classed as a material fact, as it had an effect on the entering into of the contract at that time.

There was case in Wales a while back (I will not mention details on the forum) whereby at the time of signing a contract, a flippant remark was made when as signing the signee said 'you won't do xyz will you?, I can be sure of that right?' the reply was a simply 'Aye don't worry about that we won't do that'.

2 years later in court it cost them £1m in damages for failing to honour their word which impacted upon the signing of the contract. The judgement was that the contract would not have been signed without that agreement

sladeyboy · Jul 3, 2012

I lot of people are putting you should have read the contract before signing. Yes i realise I was stupid not to do this or to check out the company as well.

The first time I spoke to Limestone I asked if all your telephone conversations were recorded? The woman on the phone confirmed that they were. I then explained my situation and asked for a copy of the recording. She went away for about 10 seconds and came back explaining the phone call was made on his mobile. Impressive that she can get that sort of infomation in only 10 seconds!! How very convenient as well. If anybody wants to take this scum of the earth company to court im all for it!

10032012 · Jul 3, 2012

FM, OWG...

I think it depends whether the contract disclaims against any verbal agreement prior to entering the written contract. A written contract wont supersede a verbal agreement made previous to it such as if there were a conflict in terms but I think a crafty contract could displace any verbal agreement if it is expressly mentioned within that any previous agreements will be invalidated upon signing.

Of course, it is always tricky to prove verbal agreements even if you have a recording. It usually takes the defendant to admit to and not deny such verbal agreement, arguing on other grounds, to have any chance of enforcing it even if not specified in statutory law for such a requirement. The law is one thing - courts are another.

OldWelshGuy · Jul 3, 2012

yep, I agree, but having a clause that states that only the written contract applies is of course unenforceable, as regardless of what is within, an oral contract is formed, and if someone has got oral clarification on a fact that has a direct influence on signing the contract, then it is part of that contract, or the contract (and money paid) will havce been obtained by deception.

Anyhow that is not going to help the OP, I am sure he knows what he should do.

Financial-Modeller · Jul 5, 2012

So that's two of us who are obviously not legal experts!

The JGG · Dec 14, 2012

I don't want to get into too much here on this thread, but I will say that Limestone took me to court earlier in the year, for payment of the 3rd years advertising. As I didn't read the contract etc.

Short story, is I won my case against them. I am now in the process of taking Limestone to court, for breach of contract.

There are so many breaches, which for obvious reasons, I am not going to post here, as it is part of my legal case against them, but talk of the oral contract superseding the written one is mentioned in my case.

In the contract I have here, this is what is written as clause 4.

[FONT=&quot] In fact it has a clause on its contract which tries to claim that any oral representation made by its salesmen in order to obtain a signature is irrelevant.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Clause 4 states It is hereby declared and agreed that this agreement contains and terms and conditions between parties and the company has made no warranty (oral or otherwise) except as expressly stated herein, and it is further agreed and declared that no alterations shall be made by the client unless endorsed on the agreement and initialled by the company agent.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I take this to read, that no matter what the sales rep says to you, will not be valid, ie they could tell you, that the sun is yellow, limestone would disagree and say its white, and according to them, they are correct.
[/FONT]

sladeyboy · Dec 14, 2012

Very interesting to know that you took them to court and won. I was totally conned by this company telling me that it was going to cost £about 300 and then charging me about 1300!!

Please keep me posted about your court case.

Neil

Lucky7CompSolutions · Dec 14, 2012

I am with most in my last business I was scammed by a few company's including quality foods online was told I would be in a menu in a very busy local restaurant guess what did not appear , also by different fire and police mags and university online directory, I am now fully aware of these company's and there tactics and won't they won't be getting any money off me again fact. they phone a lot in the company I work for now I just put the phone down or play along then say errr no lol

The JGG · Dec 14, 2012

sladeyboy said:
Very interesting to know that you took them to court and won. I was totally conned by this company telling me that it was going to cost £about 300 and then charging me about 1300!!

Please keep me posted about your court case.

Neil

Hi Neil, I am taking them to court at the moment. Limestone took me to court and lost. Basically by default, as they did not turn up to the hearing!.

I so want them to be there at my case against them, so the judge can actually see the contract, and terms and conditions, and see if they are legal etc, which is what a lot of my case is over.

Pisces Jayne · Jan 30, 2013

Our company was duped by limestone, we where rushed into signing our salon was getting busy and we were told it was for one year only and 4 payments over the year......how untrue our fault totally for not reading the contract properly. We have now agreed to pay the outstanding amount over the next few month... But guess what they are adding charges on for reminders that they have not sent, can't get through to them as a recorded message.... There must be something we can do

AMF1973 · Feb 6, 2013

Warning for all those ripped off last year by Limestone Associates - the latest ones doing the rounds call themselves 'Venditare Limited' - funnily enough have the same directors etc as Limestone and DSM Media. Upon hearing the saleswoman's Mancunian accent, alarm bells started ringing.....I stopped her and asked whether she was from Limestone Associates......she said no, 'Venditare'......I said 'are you anything to do with Limestone?' - she replied 'No, never heard of them'. Clearly a big fat lie. Same scammers, different name.

The JGG · Apr 5, 2013

Hi everyone, I posted on the other thread about my ongoing battles with Limestone etc.

I sent a very detailed complaint and report to my local trading standards dept (as venditaire are now based within their jurisdiction).

I received a reply stating the following.

I was allocated your complaint regarding the above company with regard to you taking out an advert in a brochure for Little Monsters Mayhem. I have carried out some checks into the company and have contacted the Home Authority in Lancashire as that is where the registered office was last recorded. Lancashire Trading Standards does not have a Home Authority relationship with the company and hence do not enter into dialogue with them or advise on any criminal matters. Trading Standards only investigate criminal offences and hence we have to prove that the burden of proof is beyond all reasonable doubt in order to investigate a criminal prosecution.

From the contract that you supplied in your email, it appears that you signed the contract to say that you were satisfied with the content of the contract, irrespective of the verbal representations made by the sales person, in that it states that it is a minimum two year contract and that the balance of the first years payment would be due in 30 days. Furthermore, from Company House Checks it now appears that the company is in liquidation and hence the company now appears to be no longer trading. If this is the case then I would assume that the company would be unable to pursue further action for any future payments. However this would not preclude you from taking civil action against the company, but you would need to consult a solicitor in this area as Trading Standards does not advise on civil law.

Unfortunately, because of the facts outlined above I am unable to pursue any further action.

If any one, would like a copy of the complaint, to send to your local trading standards dept, then please do not hesitate to pm me with your email address, and I will gladly send it over to you.

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